Extreme fatigue during PCT

[O-town Beef]

Advice needed; ran 4 weeks DBOL along with transdermal 11-ketotest, started Nolvadex about 10 days ago. I am literally falling asleep daily at work. Is it possible i dont really need the Nolva, in other words is it possible my Estrogen is too low?
Btw, the cycle was a bust, I ate about 4000cal ED, lifted hard 5 days per week and only gained about 5lbs, maybe 1 lb of that was muscle. I had previously gained 15 lbs on 5 weeks of Epistane.
Any ideas are welcomed.

[tice1212]

Advice needed; ran 4 weeks DBOL along with transdermal 11-ketotest, started Nolvadex about 10 days ago. I am literally falling asleep daily at work. Is it possible i dont really need the Nolva, in other words is it possible my Estrogen is too low?
Btw, the cycle was a bust, I ate about 4000cal ED, lifted hard 5 days per week and only gained about 5lbs, maybe 1 lb of that was muscle. I had previously gained 15 lbs on 5 weeks of Epistane.
Any ideas are welcomed.

No clomid? No test on cycle? Ur just asking for trouble..

[O-town Beef]

Hi Tice, i used the 11-keto test PH thinking it would supply some test. I didnt think clomid was needed if Nolva in use. I now see the error of that "cycle"and test will be used going forward. To my original question though, does it sound like i should stop the Nolva or keep running it ( I am taking 20mg ED)
Thanks

[RigPig]

..."11-Ketotestosterone is an oxidized form of testosterone that contains a keto group at position-11. It is related to adrenosterone, an androgen found in trace quantities in humans. In fish, 11-ketotestosterone functions as the endogenous androgenic sex hormone....."
From what I can tell its more of a PH. I cant really find much on it.....
O-town - is it an over-the-counter, spray? (I dont want to know where you got it, just if it was OTC)

[RigPig]

sorry, didnt see your post about it being a PH

[tice1212]

Wow a PH and d-bol ur liver must be on its last leg lol... Yes it sounds like ur test is in the dirt... Can u get bloodwork, if so get it done soon... Also how long have u been running the Novadex?

[O-town Beef]

Hi RigPig, it is a liquid that is widely available on the internet.Legal in the USA. I had read some good stuff on it.

[O-town Beef]

Tice im calling my DR next week to look into bloods.
ten days on Nolva now as well as OTC PCT

[RigPig]

Sounds like your diet is the only reason you got any gains. I dont know much about this but if your eating +500cal/day = 3500cal/wk = +1lb/wk (approx) and you gained 5lbs in 4 weeks...your dbol & test is junk. Maybe you are just tired because you put on extra weight and have been working harder than normal. (Like i said though, I'm new, still learning....i could be way out to lunch).

[tice1212]

Tice im calling my DR next week to look into bloods.
ten days on Nolva now as well as OTC PCT

Ok there is ur answer u need a REAL PCT not that fake OTC sh*t.. Go up to the sponsor at the top right of ur computer and u will see ar-r ... Go grab some nolvadex and clomid

[O-town Beef]

I wondered if DBOL was bunk... was 10mg blue hearts. i used 20/30/30/40. I complained to my guy but he said i needed to run with deca ...lesson learned. Thanks guys

[David LoPan]

........

[David LoPan]

Ok there is ur answer u need a REAL PCT not that fake OTC sh*t.. Go up to the sponsor at the top right of ur computer and u will see ar-r... Go grab some nolvadex and clomid

^^^^ Agree

[David LoPan]

Testosterone Cypionate + HCG + Dbol? Cycles without Testosterone: Why you should avoid them at all costs are MUST reads for you.

[RigPig]

Just a question here guys...if his gear is bunk wouldnt running real PCT only f**k him up? Shouldnt he keep going with the stuff he has (probably being all bunk) get some BW first then go from there? Or just stop it all , get the BW and adjust accordingly???

[David LoPan]

From Austinite - There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels.

clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of clomid because it put clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH nolva/clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

[RigPig]

From Austinite - There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels.

clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of clomid because it put clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH nolva/clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

This is purley based on the Person who's running legit gear. What are the chances with everything O-town has said that he's got anything more than chalk pills?

[David LoPan]

This is purley based on the Person who's running legit gear. What are the chances with everything O-town has said that he's got anything more than chalk pills?

there is so little testing done on pro hormones that I personally would due it just to be on the safe side. Blood work is the only real answer. But it does sound like he "might" be going to run a real cycle, IMO, so it would be worth it to get it and start it just in case. Again IMO.

And it sounds like his dbol was not OTC but legit

[RigPig]

there is so little testing done on pro hormones that I personally would due it just to be on the safe side. Blood work is the only real answer. But it does sound like he "might" be going to run a real cycle, IMO, so it would be worth it to get it and start it just in case. Again IMO.

This post is about right now, hes on PCT from (IMO) a bunk cycle with bunk gear. That info is fine to have but do you reccomend he get REAL PCT from ar-r and use those after doing a cycle of fake gear. Wouldnt using real PCT shut him right down? (if indeed he's run fake gear)

[David LoPan]

Lives in Canada . . . strict customs there. Check with AR-R to see if you can get that there. I think that you can but I dont live in Canada so I dont really know. Just trying to remember old posts

[O-town Beef]

Thats all great info everyone.
I honestly only started to get exhausted after discontinuing the dbol . I am still eating very clean but less, took 3 days off gym after last day of dbol

[David LoPan]

This post is about right now, hes on PCT from (IMO) a bunk cycle with bunk gear. That info is fine to have but do you reccomend he get REAL PCT from ar-r and use those after doing a cycle of fake gear. Wouldnt using real PCT shut him right down? (if indeed he's run fake gear)

I did an edit. It sounds like his dbol was not OTC but legit

[O-town Beef]

i have real nolva, can get clomid too no prob. i just wonder if i should stop it until blood work next week. I will be running a proper cycle when this is cleared up.

[David LoPan]

Thats all great info everyone.
I honestly only started to get exhausted after discontinuing the dbol. I am still eating very clean but less, took 3 days off gym after last day of dbol

46 years old. I would talk to your doctor about TRT when getting your blood work done. Your lack of energy could be low test more than high or low estrogen

[O-town Beef]

I will ask him again.
I tried to get on it last year, did bw and was told that test levels were good. if they are low it may help me get on the trt. Its free here if by RX

[RigPig]

I did an edit. It sounds like his dbol was not OTC but legit

Beacuse he got something from "a guy"...it had no results. Yeah it wasnt from a store but I could wipe the letters off of M&Ms and tell you what ever I want to make a buck. If it was indeed legit, it should have yeilded some results. Big Tahl, you probably know more than me but wouldnt you credit his gains to a surplus cal diet, and in the big picture safely assume he had fake gear?

[David LoPan]

Times Roman can you jump in here

[O-town Beef]

I certainly was under the impression i should have gained 10+ lbs, even if water...I read for months and knew it was not optimal but wanted to see my reaction to dbol . I did feel some high bp but not much in way of strenght. I have neither lost nor gained a pound since ending it alamost 2 weeks ago

[RigPig]

Times Roman can you jump in here

was hoping for that as well. Maybe I'm an idiot I will accept that, but I feel by reccommending real PCT after a potential fake cycle could do more damage that good. Hope it all works out O-town. Keep us in the loop. I'd like to hear how it all worked for you

[O-town Beef]

thanks to all of you. i will update once i see dr.
respect

[tice1212]

Regardless if he ran a bunk gear he still ran a PH... And just because his weight did not go up he could have not been eating enough or he loss bodyfat... But he still needs to get bw. If i was in ur shoes i would pick up a real pct

[O-town Beef]

thanks tice, got a dr appnt wednesday. I am running real nolvadex along with OTC stuff. Thats what im wondering, should I keep it up or stop it until BW results

[tice1212]

thanks tice, got a dr appnt wednesday. I am running real nolvadex along with OTC stuff. Thats what im wondering, should I keep it up or stop it until BW results

Keep taking it and see where ur test levels are... If there low then the Dr. Should give u something but like BigT said before see if u can get on trt

[O-town Beef]

gonna do my damnedest to get on it thanks bro

[O-town Beef]

btw this is the product i used for what its worth

[Times Roman]

have we decided if it was a "fake" cycle or not?

I think it would certainly be time to order up some blood tests.

last time I used a PH was back in the day when andro was legal.

imho, all the PH's since are mostly garbage or too harsh.

I don't have any experience with this Ketotest.

If it shuts you down, then you need to PCT. If it doesn't shut you down, then do not PCT.

Did you experience any testicular shrinkage?

If no, then probably not shut down, but a blood test would still be in order.

[O-town Beef]

I would say i did experience some shrinkage. I am going to see DR on Wednesday morning. the pic above is the 10mg blue heart dbol i got.
had great gains from PH epistane a few months back, so thats why i cant beleive dbol did very little

[O-town Beef]

Update. Saw dr. Will be going for Bw and interestingly a sleep test also. He's wondering if I may have sleep apnea. Will post updates.

[O-town Beef]

***UPDATE*** got BW results. Test way below the lowest range.( tOTAL TEST 4.7, RANGE IS 7.4-11) RBC very high. all else good. going for more tests today to check for hemochromotosis. Most likely going on TRT but DR wants to sort out RBC first.

[O-town Beef]

UPDATE started TRT ! Finally Dr listened to me. Just androderm 2.5mg for 4 months then i told him I want to go to Test U which he agreed to. 2 weeks on trt lethargy gone, joint pains easing up and wife has noticed a difference as well. Thanks to all for help