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ok... i dont know if this is going to sound crazy but i just read a few posts about taking high amounts of exo test actually boosting fertility.
just thought id raise the subject for debate or someone who knows more.
to me taking aas shuts you down therefor makes you infertile apart from some guys who have very high sperm count to start with.
i read that taking 1g+ of test per week was better than trt levels of 200mg with hcg for fertility.
hcg alone would better than test for fertility that Is its medical use
Yep I would have to dig for them but there are several studies that show high fertility is supported with high doses of testosterone.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigGuns89
Yes I'm going to check where I read it when I get home and I'll post what I find. Could be that high levels of test is better than hcg... something to do with higher saturation of the testosterone in the testes
I could be totally wrong but...
High test is going to cause low fertility.
Wether you are on 200mg/week or 1000mg/week, taking exogenous test is going to lower fertility.
Please provide some research if you know of some medical study showing otherwise.
How? Shut down is shut down - your just on a higher dose! If you have any studies I'd love to see em!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deadlifting Dog
I agree that HCG and HMG or clomid are the best chances for staying fertile and increasing fertility! HMG mimics FSH as HCG mimics LH so in a perfect world that's what I'd run on cycle(as increased FSH(or mimicked) will help produce spermatozoa/ & LH will keep your testes functional(& stimulates your leydig cells) so w/both your mimicking your HPTA(LH/FSH) at the same time -
Just to clarify...Quote:
Originally Posted by NACH3
The people above me are saying taking test increases your fertility.
I am saying that taking test decreases your fertility.
I believe that using hCG increases fertility. I believe using hMG increase fertility much better than hCG.
Yes indeed DLD! I am in total agreement w/that statement - same thing I was trying to convey to the OP!Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deadlifting Dog
I've never heard of 1g + of test(or any exogenous test) being helpful in fertility - if anything dose and duration could negatively impact your fertility
If you can find one damn study that supports this ludicrous statement I will be EXTREMELY surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmyg
There are studies floating around this very forum but I cannot find them at the moment. This is just what I turned up from 5 seconds of googling but give me sometime to find more relevant ones.
Higher testosterone dose impairs sperm suppression induced by a combined androgen-progestin regimen. - PubMed - NCBI
that study says test dose not increase fertility either way hcg , hmg or clomid would be the way to go if fertility is the goal
You must be referring to a different one than I linked. The study I linked says this: "These data suggest that high testosterone levels can maintain sperm production in men."Quote:
Originally Posted by djgreen
yea but he is not looking to maintain he is looking to boost, I can tell you from experience with using test without hcg iv seen sperm volume decrease
okay just to be clear I am not saying that higher doses increase sperm production, just that I read some studies that show very high doses actually can support sperm productionQuote:
Originally Posted by djgreen
That is what your saying though in different words(boost/support) close enough.... But HCG HMG and clomid are proven to boost fertility better than anything else at this time(depending on the individual and his needs) either - or a combo of them will be the best way...Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
Actually my words were "support" and "maintain." NOT the same thing as boost. What is this "close enough" lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by NACH3
I am not arguing that high doses of testosterone are any where close to as effective as HCG, HMG, or clomid.
EDIT: I wondered why you guys kept bringing up HCG. I did not realize the OP said high doses of test were better than TRT doses WITH HCG. The HCG part I missed.
Taking test will decrease fertility period.
Im not suggesting that testosterone at trt level or at 500mg, 1000mg+ a week is better than hcg, clomid or other proven fertility treatments. just that i read high levels of test such as 1000mg a week is better for sperm than low levels of exo test such as 200mg per week, something to do with how much of the test actually bathes the testes, i did read though however that this method could be better than the trt test of 200mg per week including hcg, im not saying that it is better than just hcg alone or clomid etc.
apologies for the late reply and i am still trying to find the message i seen but i have seen a few about, regarding a guy who aparantly did a study on this
my view was always that test or any aas will shut you down thus rendering you infertile
right luckily after going through my history i found some of the info...
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...u-fertile.html
http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...fertility.html
Bump
OK guys your missing part of the equation. He said more sperm production. We considering most guys on test want sex more often thus ejaculating more so the body produces more sperm to keep up vs if you only ejaculate once every other day or so. As for getting someone pregnant multiple times a day of intercourse of course you have a better chance than a couple times a week trying to get it at the right time to conceive.
I dont think it's really about fertility as in sperm count but more about volume.
im going to try a sperm test mid cycle of 500ml test e every 3.5 days and see where im at, only way to see i guess. i mean gear shut down the signals from the brain which mature and make sperm etc and we know that test and especially other aas like the 19nors will shut u down and basically be a contraceptive in most cases. my theory or my question is just that perhaps the very high dose of test will help at least thats what im reading but its not clear cut evidence and is widely debated. for this reason i decided to do test only cycle and will see what effect it has on sperm. happy to debate this further and of course in a couple months ill update with my results.
Please keep up updated on your EXP! Good luck on cycle! : ) . then i would rec a 1g/wk cycle and then a 200mg ew cycle with bloods for all. only way to see better picture on what your looking into
FSH is not not needed for spermatogenesis to occur. What is needed are intratesticular concentrations of testosterone which high levels of exogenous testosterone can provide.
and I will say it again....
I am not arguing that high levels of exogenous testosterone can increase fertility, just that they can maintain it.
Both FSH and adequate testosterone levels are needed for spermatogenesis. They teach this in college physiology, and the first link you posted states it clearly at the end of the first paragraph.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
So yes, a large shot of exogenous test will boost fertility temporarily, until the negative feedback loop shuts off FSH production.
You could also use HMG to counteract that last problem.
You are misinterpreting it. The first paragraph says that FSH has a role in induction and maintenance. NOT that it is REQUIRED.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonaparte
I am very well aware of what they teach in physiology classes thank you. Even if I wasn't that is a poor argument, unless you are asserting that everything a teacher tells you is correct?
I suggest spending more than 9 minutes reading and responding to the links I posted. Let it sink in and digest a little before responding.
Let me phrase a question that might help. Why is exogenous testosterone not considered an effective male contraceptive? Shouldn't spermatogenesis not continue once " the negative feedback loop shuts off FSH."
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
It is an effective male contraceptive, for most.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
Male hormonal contraception: suppression of spermatogenesis by injectable testosterone undecanoate alone or with levonorgestrel implants in chinese... - PubMed - NCBI
Multicenter contraceptive efficacy trial of injectable testosterone undecanoate in Chinese men. - PubMed - NCBI
Granted, that was in Chinese men. Similar studies on caucasians found that testosterone was effective in around 80% of cases.
And sperm count and motility do drop for everyone once gonadotropin levels plunge, though some still maintain a viable sperm count.
Wow this is frustrating.... I feel like this is circular logic going on here. I make a statement, that statement is challenged, I provide support for my initial statement and then I am told that I am splitting hairs.
No angle here. Yes I am splitting hairs because that is what I am arguing. Never said that exogenous test was good for sperm production, simply that there are studies that show high levels of exogenous test support (maintain, preserve, conserve, retain, or whatever other synonym one would like) spermatogenesis. Not advocating anything other than the aforementioned position.
As for your comment about what they teach in college physiology. I took it as condescending because I have picked up on a "good ol boys" type feel around here and your following comment about me being "some random new member" reinforces that in my mind. Post count or join date is not a reflection of knowledge just for future reference.
Lastly, testosterone is, generally speaking, not regarded as an effective male contraceptive. It has and is being studied as such but is not currently used for said purpose.
bold.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
As for VET status I was not discounting the knowledge of those who are VETS, only pointing out that just because someone does not have a title does it mean they are any less knowledgeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonaparte
As for the last part in bold. I agree.
Moral of the story: 1000mg testosterone trumps clomid, HMG and HCG for fertility....
j/k
I'm living proof of this. ^^^^^ :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonaparte
YES, or at least it means they have not been proven or acknowledged by those in charge as more or less knowledgeable. It's easy to cut and paste information or regurgitate something you have been told or heard but it's another thing to be able to actually use the information properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by PrettyPlease?
I consider myself quite knowledgeable about many things such as certain automotive subjects but I will be dammed if I am going to join a forum and start arguing with members or staff trying to prove myself. My parents taught me differently. When you are new somewhere you shut up, listen and learn even if you dont agree with everything until you are established and then start making suggestions or supporting your beliefs. Hopefully you will also be open minded enough to learn and accept some of their ideas but if not and you strongly disagree then maybe it's not a good place for you to try to fit in? Thats just my .02 and what Ive learned in life.
i thought this thread might cause some 'healthy' debate !
i know that normal test at 200 - 500 mg a week has a negative effect on sperm, but theres debate to be had that high test only cycles such as 1000mg + a week could provide a positive effect
no debate too me... its a bad idea. MAYBE JUST MAYBE a singe high dose then trying to have baby the weeks following,,, but even this i would not rec tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by BigGuns89