Extremely high DHT level 3 weeks after PCT, 7 weeks after T-BOL cycle

[Keron]

Hi
I registered at this forum because I got a problem that seems to be a bit uncommon and I hope that someone here maybe has an idea.

--- Cycle ---
Week 1: 2x 20mg T-Bol ED
Week 2: 2x 20mg T-Bol ED
Week 3: 2x 30mg T-Bol ED
Week 4: 20mg - 10mg - 20mg T-Bol ED
Week 5: 20mg - 10mg - 20mg T-Bol ED
Week 6: 20mg - 10mg - 20mg T-Bol ED
2 days pause

--- PCT ---
Day 1: 200mg Clomid
Day 2: 150mg Clomid
Day 3: 100mg Clomid
Rest of week 1: 50mg Clomid ED
Week 2: 50mg Clomid ED
Week 3: 50mg Clomid ED
Week 4: 50mg Clomid ED + 1mg Finasteride ED
Week 5: 50mg Clomid ED + 1mg Finasteride ED

On parallel to my PCT I started with Finasteride since I noticed increased hair loss.

Week 5: 1mg Finasteride ED
Week 6: 1mg Finasteride ED
Week 7: 1mg Finasteride ED

After week 7 I had my hormone levels checked again.

GOT: 21 U/l
GPT: 22 U/l
GGT: 12 U/l
AP: 50 U/l
Cholesterine: 143 mg/dl
HDL: 56mg/dl
LDL: 79 mg /dl
STH: 2.3 mU/l
LH: 7.7 mU/ml
FSH: 6.2 mU/ml
Prolactine: 12.3 mg/ml
Estradiol: 51.8 pg/ml
Testosterone: 8.22 ng/ml
SHBG: 52.2 nmol/l
DHEAS: 189 ug/dl
DHT: >2500 ng/l

Everything looked good but this DHT value is confusing. How is this possible?

T-Bol is not a DHT derivative.
T-Bol has a half-life of 16 hours.
The last dose of T-Bol was 7 weeks ago.
I had taken Finasteride for 5 weeks when the blood sample was taken.

How can my DHT level be so high?

Thanks for any helpful idea.

[numbere]

Q: How can my DHT level be so high?
A: You should research reflex hyperandrogenicity.

Cycles without Testosterone: Why you should avoid them at all costs

[Keron]

A: You should research reflex hyperandrogenicity.

Thank you, I now read about it. But it doesn't seem to me that this is the cause of my problem.
In my understanding all DHT in the human body is converted from Testosterone. Is this correct?
If it is correct, why was my Testosterone level not also heavily elevated?
How can a normal Testosterone level go together with a heavily elevated DHT level?

[Mr.BB]

Thank you, I now read about it. But it doesn't seem to me that this is the cause of my problem.
In my understanding all DHT in the human body is converted from Testosterone. Is this correct?
If it is correct, why was my Testosterone level not also heavily elevated?
How can a normal Testosterone level go together with a heavily elevated DHT level?

Testosterone gets converted to DHT by 5 alpha reductase enzyme

[Keron]

Testosterone gets converted to DHT by 5 alpha reductase enzyme

Yes. That's the reason for me wondering where so much DHT can come from when only a normal level of Testosterone is there.

[numbere]

Thank you, I now read about it. But it doesn't seem to me that this is the cause of my problem.

What is Reflex Hyperandrogenicity?

[Keron]

What is Reflex Hyperandrogenicity?

I read similar explanations but the way it works doesn't seem to explain my lab results.
If the Finasteride caused an upregulation of my Testosterone production why is the Testosterone level in the normal range?

I read that a constant fraction of the available Testosterone is converted to DHT so the DHT level is directly dependent on the Testosterone level. Is this correct?
If it is correct then how can the DHT level be out of range without the Testosterone level being even more?

[numbere]

I read similar explanations but the way it works doesn't seem to explain my lab results.
If the Finasteride caused an upregulation of my Testosterone production why is the Testosterone level in the normal range?

I'm an engineer not a doctor, but IMO your body produced large amount of 5ar (not testosterone) in order to counteract the low level of serum DHT. This is what led to your high amount of DHT upon termination of finasteride.

[Mr.BB]

I tried to give a hint with the 5ar post

IMO might not be the termination of finasteride that triggered it, but the use of tbol without testosterone base.

[Keron]

I tried to give a hint with the 5ar post

Do you mean that the 5-alpha reductase enzyme production is raised or lowered depending of the body's demand for DHT?
I thought this enzyme was always there in a more or less constant amount making the DHT level dependent on the regulation of the Testosterone level.

[Mr.BB]

Do you mean that the 5-alpha reductase enzyme production is raised or lowered depending of the body's demand for DHT?
I thought this enzyme was always there in a more or less constant amount making the DHT level dependent on the regulation of the Testosterone level.

Yes, the body raises 5ar when wants DHT, not the testosterone.

Otherwise we would just need to take finasteride or other 5ar inhibitor to raise testosterone.

[Keron]

Yes, the body raises 5ar when wants DHT, not the testosterone.
Otherwise we would just need to take finasteride or other 5ar inhibitor to raise testosterone.

Okay, this would explain the numbers.

What would you recommend to prevent this problem in future?
Should I inject a small amount of Test E in addition to the T-Bol? I already planned this as an experiment to see whether I can cycle without beein sexually disabled for 2 months.
If I try the combination should I take Finasteride or Duasteride in addition? My main reason for going T-Bol only was my wish to keep my hair.

[MrFreshmaker]

Yes, the body raises 5ar when wants DHT, not the testosterone. Otherwise we would just need to take finasteride or other 5ar inhibitor to raise testosterone.

I just asked a friend of mine about this(cardiologist though)cuz i was interested too,and he said: When is low testosterone,the body produces more DHT to compensate testosterone,but he never heard about such high levels of DHT!

[Mr.BB]

Okay, this would explain the numbers.

What would you recommend to prevent this problem in future?
Should I inject a small amount of Test E in addition to the T-Bol? I already planned this as an experiment to see whether I can cycle without beein sexually disabled for 2 months.
If I try the combination should I take Finasteride or Duasteride in addition? My main reason for going T-Bol only was my wish to keep my hair.

You need testosterone in every cycle. It has been proven hundreds of times. Read the link Numbere posted in #2 post.

If you are going to lose your hair theres nothing you can do about it in the long run. I dont have much hair since I was 25 or so, nowadays I have more or less the same as when start cycling, so not losing much. The only thing you can do is to use nizoral together with finasteride or duta (I do it for a few years, on and off).

Just be aware that using 5ar inhibitors can lead to erectile dysfunction plus other complications.

[Keron]

Hi

I got a new lab report!

After my PCT I continued Finasteride for 2 months.

Week 8-13: 1mg Finasteride e.d.
Week 14: Nothing
Week 15: Nothing

In week 15 the blood sample for the report I got today was taken.

Estradiol: 27.9 pg/ml
Testosterone: 4.68 ng/ml
SHBG: 38.6 nmol/l
DHT: 980 ng/l

My DHT is still elevated but at least it is now within the scale.

Should I resume taking Finasteride or do you believe that it was part of the cause for the extreme DHT level?

What should these results tell me for my future cycle planning? I still want to keep my hair as best as possible and I prefer quality muscle over mass.
Could this be a sensible stack?

- Test E 250mg once a week
- Letrozole 2.5mg e.o.d
- Finasteride 1mg or Duasteride 0.5mg e.d.
- T-Bol 30mg e.d.
- HCG 250 iU once a week

With T-Bol only 50mg e.d. was the maximum I could handle. 60mg e.d. gave me muscle cramps even when washing or brushing my teeth. So I believe I have to further reduce it if it is stacked with Testosterone.

Thanks

[Steroidman99]

Hi

I got a new lab report!

After my PCT I continued Finasteride for 2 months.

Week 8-13: 1mg Finasteride e.d.
Week 14: Nothing
Week 15: Nothing

In week 15 the blood sample for the report I got today was taken.

Estradiol: 27.9 pg/ml
Testosterone: 4.68 ng/ml
SHBG: 38.6 nmol/l
DHT: 980 ng/l

My DHT is still elevated but at least it is now within the scale.

Should I resume taking Finasteride or do you believe that it was part of the cause for the extreme DHT level?

What should these results tell me for my future cycle planning? I still want to keep my hair as best as possible and I prefer quality muscle over mass.
Could this be a sensible stack?

- Test E 250mg once a week
- Letrozole 2.5mg e.o.d
- Finasteride 1mg or Duasteride 0.5mg e.d.
- T-Bol 30mg e.d.
- HCG 250 iU once a week

With T-Bol only 50mg e.d. was the maximum I could handle. 60mg e.d. gave me muscle cramps even when washing or brushing my teeth. So I believe I have to further reduce it if it is stacked with Testosterone.

Thanks

First of all, it is necessary to convert these obscure values to more reasonable units.

Testosterone 4.68 ng/ml means 468 ng/dl, which is slightly subnormal.

SHBG 38.6 nmol/l is only very slightly subnormal.

DHT 980 ng/l is 98,0 ng/dl, which is very high, but it depends on your normal levels. Some people can have such high DHT values naturally. In fact, I heard about a man, who had 130 ng/dl or so. Furthermore, antiestrogens can disproportionatelly increase DHT levels, relatively to testosterone.

[Steroidman99]

BTW, Turinabol is a crappy steroid. If you want to keep your hair, then forgot about testosterone. Oxandrolone is the best choice. But pesonally, I switched to peptides for good.

[NACH3]

BTW, Turinabol is a crappy steroid. If you want to keep your hair, then forgot about testosterone. Oxandrolone is the best choice. But pesonally, I switched to peptides for good.

That's a good move on your part seeing that you don't like to run test w/any of your oral only cycles!