Low sides cycle: Primobolan + HCG as base

[Fush]

Bill Roberts - Primobolan and HCG
For those wishing a mild steroid cycle, perhaps the best performance-enhancing drug to combine with Primobolan is not another anabolic steroid directly, but HCG at doses totalling approximately 1500 IU/week. This may be taken as, for example, 200 IU daily, 400 IU every other day, or 500 IU three times per week. This typically yields high-normal testosterone levels and maintains normal estrogen levels, aiding the effectiveness of Primobolan with relatively little added androgenic side effects. Such usage may be counted as comparable to injecting 100 mg/week testosterone, and so for example 500 mg/week Primobolan use combined with this amount of HCG may be considered comparable to 600 mg/week total usage of anabolic steroids. "

Only read one guy do this hcg+primo only cycle at 500iu x3 + 800mg per week primo. He got gyno symptoms at week 6.5 of planned 8 week cycle.

I'm trying to avoid the androgenic side effects of test that is why i prefer to run a maintenance level of test (using HCG but with a little lower dosing than 1500iu/week), while getting the anabolic benefits of 800mg primo.

bios:
32yr old. 5'11 205lb 12-15% BF max (by caliper. also,can see 6 pack)
12+yrs consistent lifting
no previous aas cycle
465lb+ paused olympic squat

Will this give me decent gains (15lb+) if ran for 14 weeks? PCT after 10 days using clomid (100-50-50-50) and nolva (40-20-20-20)

Thanks

[The Deadlifting Dog]

IMHO: no, you will not gain 15+ pounds

[-Ender-]

First cycle should be a long ester testosterone only.

15 pound gain may occur, but it will consist of mostly water. After PCT you may see a gain of 2-5lb of LBM.

[fit_deskjocky]

Bill Roberts - Primobolan and HCG
HCG at doses totalling approximately 1500 IU/week. This may be taken as, for example, 200 IU daily, 400 IU every other day, or 500 IU three times per week.

Appears to be an expensive cycle for very little if any reward. You are concerned about the androgenic side effects of test but not concerned about the long term side effects of Leydig Cell desensitization from the 14 week HCG blast of 1500iu a week?

[Sicko]

Bill Roberts - Primobolan and HCG
For those wishing a mild steroid cycle, perhaps the best performance-enhancing drug to combine with Primobolan is not another anabolic steroid directly, but HCG at doses totalling approximately 1500 IU/week. This may be taken as, for example, 200 IU daily, 400 IU every other day, or 500 IU three times per week. This typically yields high-normal testosterone levels and maintains normal estrogen levels, aiding the effectiveness of Primobolan with relatively little added androgenic side effects. Such usage may be counted as comparable to injecting 100 mg/week testosterone, and so for example 500 mg/week Primobolan use combined with this amount of HCG may be considered comparable to 600 mg/week total usage of anabolic steroids. "

Only read one guy do this hcg+primo only cycle at 500iu x3 + 800mg per week primo. He got gyno symptoms at week 6.5 of planned 8 week cycle.

I'm trying to avoid the androgenic side effects of test that is why i prefer to run a maintenance level of test (using HCG but with a little lower dosing than 1500iu/week), while getting the anabolic benefits of 800mg primo.

bios:
32yr old. 5'11 205lb 12-15% BF max (by caliper. also,can see 6 pack)
12+yrs consistent lifting
no previous aas cycle
465lb+ paused olympic squat

Will this give me decent gains (15lb+) if ran for 14 weeks? PCT after 10 days using clomid (100-50-50-50) and nolva (40-20-20-20)

Thanks

Welcome to the forum Fush.
To be blunt. I would not try and come up with a "better" beginner cycle that what has been proven over and over as "successful first cycle" which is long ester Testosterone @ 400-500mg per week.
I don't understand why everyone nowadays feels the need to come up with something "outside the box" or "fresh".
There is an old saying that stands the test of time.
"IF IT AINT BROKE...DON'T FIX IT!"
#1 mistake I see over and over on this board is people over complicating diets, cardio and cycles which typically is a result of them trying to beat the system or take a shortcut to results.
Anyways...not trying to bash you but felt I needed to chime in with my 2cents.
Don't get caught up in the glitter of the "definitions" of different AAS out there. Start basic and grow into your cycles and compounds and you will get better results rather than jumping into bed with the one that "sounds" the sexiest.
Keep it simple...eat, train, sleep, grow.

[Fush]

Thank you for the replies.

expensive than most, yes. Will keep HCG to 1000iu max (adjusting based on bloods) to keep me in the mid-normal test level ~ 600-700.

not really complicating things.

Primo + HCG (enough to get me to mid-normal, so ~ 1000iu/week) is not that complex compared to the staple Test + AI + HCG.

i'm not looking to cycle for fast gains, hence the primo. HCG to get test to normal just seems a lot safer than a 75-100mg test. its really one or the other to counter the suppression.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Only read one guy do this hcg+primo only cycle at 500iu x3 + 800mg per week primo. He got gyno symptoms at week 6.5 of planned 8 week cycle.

And you want to run this why???
Are you looking for minimal gains and gyno??

[Fush]

And you want to run this why???
Are you looking for minimal gains and gyno??

i mentioned more than 1 time already buddy.. running HCG at 1000iu max just to get test to normal.

im looking for gains that stay. don't care if takes longer. i already did 12+years of grinding. anything faster than natty gains is welcomed.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

i mentioned more than 1 time already buddy.. running HCG at 1000iu max just to get test to normal.

im looking for gains that stay. don't care if takes longer. i already did 12+years of grinding. anything faster than natty gains is welcomed.

It isn't only test levels that cause gyno.

How do you know that his primo didn't cause it?

What I am saying is you know of one guy who has run it and it went badly. So why would you want to run it?

[Sicko]

If your looking for someone to co-sign your cycle... I doubt you will find anyone that will.
If that is what you want to do then do it. Otherwise read the sticky of "Beginner Cycle" and drop the "custom cycle" you don't have any experience with nor will you find someone here to advise you to do.
Simple.

[Fush]

It isn't only test levels that cause gyno.

How do you know that his primo didn't cause it?

What I am saying is you know of one guy who has run it and it went badly. So why would you want to run it?

because primo does not convert to estrogen. and a mid-level test will not raise my estrogen to dangerous levels. please correct me if i miss anything. thanks

[Fush]

If your looking for someone to co-sign your cycle... I doubt you will find anyone that will.
If that is what you want to do then do it. Otherwise read the sticky of "Beginner Cycle" and drop the "custom cycle" you don't have any experience with nor will you find someone here to advise you to do.
Simple.

its not a self made experiment. this is bill roberts. point of thread is to get feedback from somebody who ran something very similar and get learning experience from them. i read that gyno guys mistake is taking his test to dangerously high levels and raising estrogen beyond normal at the same time.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I know of a guy who got gyno and had surgery to remove it.
His cycle....
A simple cycle of a prohormone called M1T.
M1T doesn't convert to estrogen, he didn't use any hCG or test and he got gyno.
The human body is not black and white.

[Fush]

I know of a guy who got gyno and had surgery to remove it.
His cycle....
A simple cycle of a prohormone called M1T.
M1T doesn't convert to estrogen, he didn't use any hCG or test and he got gyno.
The human body is not black and white.

this is the dark side of non-government controlled manufacturing. you hope that what you ordered is what you get.

if gyno is really my main enemy here, 1000iu/week HCG vs 75-100mg test/week to keep test normal are my choices. im sticking to primo because its primo.

im more concerned about adding in an in-cycle AI with the test option. thats more things that can go wrong.

[kelkel]

I'm really not sure you should even cycle to be honest based on what I've read.

You're concerned about all the androgenic side effects
Concerned about adding an AI as "more things can go wrong"
HCG at that dose can cause E2 issues on its own
Primo is mild but still can still have androgenic sides, just depends on the person...
Primo is still shutting down your HPTA but you express no concern about re-starting. Just assuming PCT will work ok. For some it does not and they never regain their prior "normal" levels.

[Fush]

I'm really not sure you should even cycle to be honest based on what I've read.

You're concerned about all the androgenic side effects
Concerned about adding an AI as "more things can go wrong"
HCG at that dose can cause E2 issues on its own
Primo is mild but still can still have androgenic sides, just depends on the person...
Primo is still shutting down your HPTA but you express no concern about re-starting. Just assuming PCT will work ok. For some it does not and they never regain their prior "normal" levels.

A lower dose of HCG to get to normal test levels should not raise E2 out of control.

AI can drop E2 to dangerously low levels if managed poorly. thats my concern with that. low to 0 E2 is just as bad as low test.

PCT + HCG on cycle. whats else can i do for HPTA shutdown. an extra 2 weeks of clomid as someone already did. i'm prepared for some androgenic sides that is why i'm trying to stay leaner before a cycle.

thanks for the replies.

[kelkel]

We'll see about the HCG and E2. Plenty of guys on TRT have to add an AI when they implement low dose HCG at half the dose you're suggesting. No doubt it's a combination of both test and HCG but it can and will make a difference. HCG Mono is a form of TRT.

Of course an AI can drop levels to low. It's why you start low and titrate based on BW. If you've ever experienced seriously low test you would not consider equating it to low E. Low E simply doesn't compare.

Re PCT I was just pointing out the dichotomy that you're overly concerned with AI usage but not with pituitary suppression and restarting your HPTA. Know that pct is always a crap-shoot. You won't know what you get until the BW is in.

If you do run this cycle it really would be great for you to keep this thread going with your progress and results, recovery, etc. We all learn from each other here.

kel

[Fush]

We'll see about the HCG and E2. Plenty of guys on TRT have to add an AI when they implement low dose HCG at half the dose you're suggesting. No doubt it's a combination of both test and HCG but it can and will make a difference. HCG Mono is a form of TRT.

Of course an AI can drop levels to low. It's why you start low and titrate based on BW. If you've ever experienced seriously low test you would not consider equating it to low E. Low E simply doesn't compare.

Re PCT I was just pointing out the dichotomy that you're overly concerned with AI usage but not with pituitary suppression and restarting your HPTA. Know that pct is always a crap-shoot. You won't know what you get until the BW is in.

If you do run this cycle it really would be great for you to keep this thread going with your progress and results, recovery, etc. We all learn from each other here.

kel

read a couple of journals of HRT and the numbers are about the same: (other peoples numbers)
1. 100mg test puts me in the 800-900.
2. 200mg/wk test blood/test levels came back at 1870 (300-1100)
3. Previously, I was doing HCG mono at 500 IU twice a week WITH 0.5 mg arimidex twice a week. Bloods indicated an E2 of 7 (3-70). I was advised to STOP the AI completely and recheck bloods later for Total T and E2 levels. after no AI. Now, 8 weeks later, bloodwork shows a total T of 686 (350-1200) and E2 of 29 (3-70).

took me almost a year of planning to find something that might work with as little sides as possible. i'm not getting into this unprepared. but i can be wrong so this thread can still save me. i'm not planning on starting until next month.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

read a couple of journals of HRT and the numbers are about the same: (other peoples numbers)
1. 100mg test puts me in the 800-900.
2. 200mg/wk test blood/test levels came back at 1870 (300-1100)
3. Previously, I was doing HCG mono at 500 IU twice a week WITH 0.5 mg arimidex twice a week. Bloods indicated an E2 of 7 (3-70). I was advised to STOP the AI completely and recheck bloods later for Total T and E2 levels. after no AI. Now, 8 weeks later, bloodwork shows a total T of 686 (350-1200) and E2 of 29 (3-70).

took me almost a year of planning to find something that might work with as little sides as possible. i'm not getting into this unprepared. but i can be wrong so this thread can still save me. i'm not planning on starting until next month.

If you are on TRT... which you are by using hCG monotherapy... then you don't need a PCT.

[Fush]

Bump to include more experiences from other users:

Quote Originally Posted by PROmlgMuscle View Post
Hey asshole, i made an account just to shut you up. Unless you have studied Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) or science in general, do not flaunt the knowledge you think you have. You are regurgitating the same bullshit that you have been bullshited. No one likes a bullshitter. In retrospect for shortness, You can use Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) for a base in oral cycles, as one time I pondered the same question, and decided to experiment on myself in conjunction with several blood test and a variety of dosages. What I already knew was that AAS cause shutdown, but what I did not know is how. In conclusion in became conclusive that AAS shutdown LH and FSH, without these two, testosterone levels plummet. Another variable that I already knew was that Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mimic these, and therefore it did not matter what oral I took to cause shut down of FSH and LH, because Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) mimics these on its own.

Therefore I discovered through periodical blood test, that 50mg dbol daily, and 1750iu Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) weekly consistently kept my test levels in the 900's. Although Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) had to be administered for 3 week(ish) BEFORE the dbol. /

his HCG at 1750iu is definitely in the higher range.

doing HCG mono at 250 IU ED or 500 IU EOD made my test go from 300-400 to 1024

thats also another 1750iu/week = near max normal test levels

400 IU HCG x3/week
tT 778 ng/dL

400 IU HCG x3/week
tT 855 ng/dl

I konw of a guy who runs HCG mono 600iu every 3.5 day's and TT 850. He says any higher and it converts to much e2 and he has to use an AI. He used up to 5,000iu a week and T levels as high as 1400 never had desensitize issue and used for 2 years straight.
**

these last three of HCG monos are getting close to the same high 700s, mid 800 using a common 1200iu/week

these are random google search from forums being compiled here to see any similarity from the users.


my starting HCG will still be set a close to 1000iu/week or 350iu 3x/week to get to at least a normal mid level test. i have AI in case but would only use it if necessary.

If i were to make this work for myself, a successful cycle using this bill-roberts moderate sides cycle will depend on:

1. high protein, caloric surplus diet to make use of the increased nitrogen retention from the primo. its not the top anabolic but its a big step up from whey + creatine.
2. high tonnage weight training, heavy compounds, moderate daily volume and longer rest to facility a higher intensities. more training days per week. no 20 reps burnouts using pink dumbells. this is how i train for years now anyway.
3. good recovery.

[PT1982]

Hcg is not a substitute for test. The biggest problem I'm seeing with you is that you're shrugging off Kel, who is an expert in hormone replacement. He's actually trying to help keep you safe and give you solid advice, but you (for some reason) think Bill Roberts is the end all be all. He is not. In fact, Bills knowledge comes from forums and people's experiences, not his own. I've known this for years, as have most who frequent these boards. Roberts is not in any way an authority to steroids. He's just a guy who took interest and learned from other people's trial and error.
If you're going to cycle, do it right and don't risk causing permanent harm just for a cycle that's not going to do you much good anyways. You've got to keep your health in the forefront of your decisions or people are not going to want to advise you. We're looking out for you. Will Bill?

[Fush]

Hcg is not a substitute for test.

totally lost interest in anything you will advice. even Kel agrees that HCG mono is a form of TRT.

Hcg is not a substitute for test. The biggest problem I'm seeing with you is that you're shrugging off Kel, who is an expert in hormone replacement. He's actually trying to help keep you safe and give you solid advice, but you (for some reason) think Bill Roberts is the end all be all. He is not. In fact, Bills knowledge comes from forums and people's experiences, not his own. I've known this for years, as have most who frequent these boards. Roberts is not in any way an authority to steroids. He's just a guy who took interest and learned from other people's trial and error.
If you're going to cycle, do it right and don't risk causing permanent harm just for a cycle that's not going to do you much good anyways. You've got to keep your health in the forefront of your decisions or people are not going to want to advise you. We're looking out for you. Will Bill?

dont know where you got the idea that i'm not respecting kels inputs.

i've read his posts and he is very knowledgeable in this field. i agree that HCG at higher doses will give me the same E2 problems. i've looked at peoples previous cycles and have a good idea of a safe starting dose.

Robert's learned from other people's trial and error... whats wrong with that? i prefer an actual cycle experience by the common john doe versus theoretical numbers made by an einstein.

if you have an idea of this cycle or AAS in general, its mostly health over gains biased. also, how do you know i wont gain anything?

[PT1982]

totally lost interest in anything you will advice. even Kel agrees that HCG mono is a form of TRT.



dont know where you got the idea that i'm not respecting kels inputs.

i've read his posts and he is very knowledgeable in this field. i agree that HCG at higher doses will give me the same E2 problems. i've looked at peoples previous cycles and have a good idea of a safe starting dose.

Robert's learned from other people's trial and error... whats wrong with that? i prefer an actual cycle experience by the common john doe versus theoretical numbers made by an einstein.

if you have an idea of this cycle or AAS in general, its mostly health over gains biased. also, how do you know i wont gain anything?

You should want cycle advice from people who've had personal experience over hearsay. You wouldn't want me to do open heart surgery by watching a YouTube video or reading a pamphlet. People who actively do what Roberts teaches goes much farther than just hearsay in my opinion. I lost all respect for the man when I read a post that was meant to be private. He's no expert at all when it comes to anabolics. He was just some random guy who read a lot of posts and now people assume he's the God of AAS, which he isn't. I'm truly trying to help you and let you know that no matter who it is, fact check before diving head first.

[Sicko]

totally lost interest in anything you will advice. even Kel agrees that HCG mono is a form of TRT.



dont know where you got the idea that i'm not respecting kels inputs.

i've read his posts and he is very knowledgeable in this field. i agree that HCG at higher doses will give me the same E2 problems. i've looked at peoples previous cycles and have a good idea of a safe starting dose.

Robert's learned from other people's trial and error... whats wrong with that? i prefer an actual cycle experience by the common john doe versus theoretical numbers made by an einstein.

if you have an idea of this cycle or AAS in general, its mostly health over gains biased. also, how do you know i wont gain anything?

Hmmm...bet your a millennial.
Back to my original comment...Why the need to poke and prod knowledgeable members in an attempt to find someone to share your desire to run a cycle that is almost guaranteed to give you far less results than you expect?
I just don't get it? if you want to step into the world of AAS then do it and start with the basic cycle that is PROVEN to work. As with any drug there are side effects that can occur. Fortunately the people on this board have years and/or decades of experience that they offer up to you free of charge on how to not only run a successful cycle but manage any sides that you might encounter...
But no... you want to be a pioneer and tell everyone what a great cycle you found online...
Bump for the next knowledgeable member to bounce the same info off your skull.

[Mr.BB]

Primo can be really hard on the hair.

Whats other androgenic side effects are you worried about?

[Coco0177]

Dude.you are really making things that are simple a shitton harder.

Testo+Ai. That's all you need.safe and nice.hcg at 1000iu is a HUGE AMOUNT and with a lower trt dosage you will be fine also and still make better gaons.if you know what you are doing and you are monitoring your levels you won't have a problem.imo drop the alternative cycles and don't lose a good 1st cycle for sometjing really noone tried and noone will.I am not a pro but really...stick with what you can find the most info don't screw your first cycle

[Fush]

Hmmm...bet your a millennial.
Back to my original comment...Why the need to poke and prod knowledgeable members in an attempt to find someone to share your desire to run a cycle that is almost guaranteed to give you far less results than you expect?
I just don't get it? if you want to step into the world of AAS then do it and start with the basic cycle that is PROVEN to work. As with any drug there are side effects that can occur. Fortunately the people on this board have years and/or decades of experience that they offer up to you free of charge on how to not only run a successful cycle but manage any sides that you might encounter...
But no... you want to be a pioneer and tell everyone what a great cycle you found online...
Bump for the next knowledgeable member to bounce the same info off your skull.

The basic cycle is proven to work. The basic cycle is also proven to give me water bloat that will eventually go away. Why not do something will a lot less bloat so i don't have to worry about my BP.

Primo can be really hard on the hair.

Whats other androgenic side effects are you worried about?

Primo is almost universally agreed to be the safest steroid. I also know that alll ass has side effects.

Dude.you are really making things that are simple a shitton harder.

Testo+Ai. That's all you need.safe and nice.hcg at 1000iu is a HUGE AMOUNT and with a lower trt dosage you will be fine also and still make better gaons.if you know what you are doing and you are monitoring your levels you won't have a problem.imo drop the alternative cycles and don't lose a good 1st cycle for sometjing really noone tried and noone will.I am not a pro but really...stick with what you can find the most info don't screw your first cycle

1000iu is not HUGE. its the equivalent of 70-100mg test per week.

Why are guys treating this cycle like i'm injecting 2grams test for a first cycle. The only thing that i can really screw up IMO is taking my E2 out of normal range. I have AI and test E in case also.

If primo's nitrogen retention is as good as people who've used it say, then my training and diet decides the gains i'm going to get. My lifts are already in the elite level (exrx).

All bashing a cycle because it's not the basic and only saying that gains are not as good. Yes, less sides biased over gains.

If somebody says your E2 goes up and AI wont do shit because its the testicular E2 that u fukd up, then il be thankful and do more reading before i commit. (I read that from someone but cant really find anything to validate)

[kelkel]

I also know that alll ass has side effects.

Damn right it does. AAS too!

[Coco0177]

As said I am not a pro here but I can understand some basics about a cycle and I am expressing my opinion.1000iu IS huge amount especially when taken for a long time.it's not so much about the test that it yields as for the leyding cells desensitizarion it will do for you.that's why people use hcg in small amounts or some blast it for a little time, it is a reqlly powerfull drug which should not be wasted or overused.it's what works for you sure...but for 1st time why not go for something that really gives results and it is worth the shot?E2 is managable, bloat is also.it's not about everybody bashing you but trying to tell you that your methods won't give you what you ask for(15pounds for a beast like you is out of question with just primo and hcg).

[MuscleScience]

Here is some real world. I ran Test E at 125mg/week, Deca at 400mg and HCG after. I took an AI all through the cycle.

For PCT, I ran HCG. This was before the consensus was to not run it for PCT. I ran it at a 750IU/week. I DID NOT run an AI during my PCT and got horrible gynoid issues from just the HCG. Luckily for me the only smart thing I did was have an AI on hand. If I run HCG during a cycle now, I make sure to run an AI with it.

[Fush]

Here is some real world. I ran Test E at 125mg/week, Deca at 400mg and HCG after. I took an AI all through the cycle.

For PCT, I ran HCG. This was before the consensus was to not run it for PCT. I ran it at a 750IU/week. I DID NOT run an AI during my PCT and got horrible gynoid issues from just the HCG. Luckily for me the only smart thing I did was have an AI on hand. If I run HCG during a cycle now, I make sure to run an AI with it.

Yes. You timed it wrong and we all learned from that now. the 750iu did not wreck your e2. its the aromatization of the Test E without an AI.

[Fush]

As said I am not a pro here but I can understand some basics about a cycle and I am expressing my opinion.1000iu IS huge amount especially when taken for a long time.it's not so much about the test that it yields as for the leyding cells desensitizarion it will do for you.that's why people use hcg in small amounts or some blast it for a little time, it is a reqlly powerfull drug which should not be wasted or overused.it's what works for you sure...but for 1st time why not go for something that really gives results and it is worth the shot?E2 is managable, bloat is also.it's not about everybody bashing you but trying to tell you that your methods won't give you what you ask for(15pounds for a beast like you is out of question with just primo and hcg).

HCG was thought to be a powerful drug because there was a time that 5K iu was the standard dosage. desensitization at 350iu 3x/week is the least of my worries. search kel's post even from 4 years ago:

forums.steroid.com/hormone-replacement-therapy-low-testosterone-treatment-anti-aging/534071-leydig-cell-desensitization-e2-hcg.html

[Fush]

As said I am not a pro here but I can understand some basics about a cycle and I am expressing my opinion.1000iu IS huge amount especially when taken for a long time.it's not so much about the test that it yields as for the leyding cells desensitizarion it will do for you.that's why people use hcg in small amounts or some blast it for a little time, it is a reqlly powerfull drug which should not be wasted or overused.it's what works for you sure...but for 1st time why not go for something that really gives results and it is worth the shot?E2 is managable, bloat is also.it's not about everybody bashing you but trying to tell you that your methods won't give you what you ask for(15pounds for a beast like you is out of question with just primo and hcg).

HCG was thought to be strong because the dosages back then were at 5K iu.

534071-leydig-cell-desensitization-e2-hcg.html

[MuscleScience]

Yes. You timed it wrong and we all learned from that now. the 750iu did not wreck your e2. its the aromatization of the Test E without an AI.

Lol, no it was HCG at a relatively "low," dosage. That's what my point is, it didn't wreck my E2, it raised it up.

[Fush]

Lol, no it was HCG at a relatively "low," dosage. That's what my point is, it didn't wreck my E2, it raised it up.

appreciate you sharing your numbers but i cannot add this to the HCG to test to E2 ratio because of the PCT timing error. most that use 700iu got their total test up but within the normal range and did not require and AI.

[MuscleScience]

appreciate you sharing your numbers but i cannot add this to the HCG to test to E2 ratio because of the PCT timing error. most that use 700iu got their total test up but within the normal range and did not require and AI.

Alright, good luck with your gyno surgery.

[Fush]

Alright, good luck with your gyno surgery.

no idea how you believe enough HCG to bring T levels to normal will raise E2 levels high enough to cause gyno. primo does not aromatize. i'm not morbidly obese. whats your point?

[MuscleScience]

no idea how you believe enough HCG to bring T levels to normal will raise E2 levels high enough to cause gyno. primo does not aromatize. i'm not morbidly obese. whats your point?

Good luck with your cycle.

[NACH3]

no idea how you believe enough HCG to bring T levels to normal will raise E2 levels high enough to cause gyno. primo does not aromatize. i'm not morbidly obese. whats your point?

Do you realize hCG is in fact a suppressive & does convert to estrogen therefore it will raise E2 levels - it's really that simple!... also, it needs to be ran on cycle not for pct unless your doing a power pct - you need it to stay functional - it's an LH mimitec!!

and the bloat your worried about must be b/c your diet isn't in point or maybe both your diet and training need an overhaul?! One can cut on any compound out there unlike most people think! It's all diet my man

[Fush]

Do you realize hCG is in fact a suppressive so it will raise E2 levels... and the bloat your worried about must be b/c your diet isn't in point or maybe both your diet and training need an overhaul?! One can cut on any compound out there unlike most people think! It's all diet my man

diet and training are not going to be a problem. they are my strong points and would rather talk about the test base of my cycle.

how can a dose of HCG that raises my test to normal levels raise the E2 to out of range? i am not trying to max out test levels. just enough to combat the suppression.