Hitting natural limit vs starting AAS sooner

[songdog]

I believe guys should have a foundation to build on prior to starting aas because if they can't do that it shows me they didn't put in any effort.I sure as hell don't advise young kids to cycle.So I don't agree with everything you say there GH.We have always taught safety 1st and yes there isn't a line in the sand at wat age but you got to start somewhere.And everyone wants to refer to Arnold and how young he was well look at all the problems he had having a kid.And I am sure there are many other problems these pro's have that we don't know about.GH you are a very knowledgeable person and you say you run your own gym and you must do good in selling your methods too these young skinny kids like you have done here.But I have morals and will not advise a young kid or some skinny guy to jump on the juice just because he wants to get big now.I worked in a gym once and seen guys running cycles only a pro would do and they all looked like they never touched a weight.This is just my opinion and the way I feel a young or skinny guy wants advice on running aas they can go else where at least I will be able to sleep knowing I didn't help someone mess up their health or life.

[PistolPete33]

The issue isn't who will be bigger but the issue is who will be better off in their 30's and 40's. The reason is that the twin starting earlier on is more likely to never recover from his AAS abuse and have sexual side effects due to his undeveloped HPTA system.

the other issue can be the ligament and tendon damage jumping on too soon. The reality is that most people nowadays just want a quick and easy fix and aren't willing to put the work in. It's why you see kids in the gym that are super skinny and within 6 months are growing like crazy. Then, a year later they stop training and you see them on the street and they are back to being a beanpole with sexual issues.

[GearHeaded]

I believe guys should have a foundation to build on prior to starting aas because if they can't do that it shows me they didn't put in any effort.I sure as hell don't advise young kids to cycle.So I don't agree with everything you say there GH.We have always taught safety 1st and yes there isn't a line in the sand at wat age but you got to start somewhere.And everyone wants to refer to Arnold and how young he was well look at all the problems he had having a kid.And I am sure there are many other problems these pro's have that we don't know about.GH you are a very knowledgeable person and you say you run your own gym and you must do good in selling your methods too these young skinny kids like you have done here.But I have morals and will not advise a young kid or some skinny guy to jump on the juice just because he wants to get big now.I worked in a gym once and seen guys running cycles only a pro would do and they all looked like they never touched a weight.This is just my opinion and the way I feel a young or skinny guy wants advice on running aas they can go else where at least I will be able to sleep knowing I didn't help someone mess up their health or life.

note sure where this came from. not once have I advocated for kids to use AAS. quite the opposite, my posts generally tell guys to wait till at least 25 26 or even better yet when they are in their 30s..

think you are confusing a made up scenario with something I'm advocating. thats a misunderstanding on your part.

the made up scenario had two twins, one starting gear at age 23 and the other at age 26 . and then seeing who builds the better physique over time (did waiting and being natural longer have a better effect or did starting earlier have a better effect).

^ that scenario was for discussion and debate. it had NOTHING to do with advocating for young guys or 'kids' like you say using steroids. not sure where you got that from. the point of the thread and discussion isn't even about 'age' per se. heck lets change the ages in the scenario and make it 30 and 33 and see who builds the better physique by 40.

this thread has nothing to do with young guys starting AAS let alone me advocating for that

so openly accusing me of "selling my methods" and getting kids on steroids is WAY OUT OF LINE Imo

and as far as untrained or skinny guys , well the scenario also said these two twins had 3 years of solid training and diet, and thus a good foundation

[PistolPete33]

I believe guys should have a foundation to build on prior to starting aas because if they can't do that it shows me they didn't put in any effort.I sure as hell don't advise young kids to cycle.So I don't agree with everything you say there GH.We have always taught safety 1st and yes there isn't a line in the sand at wat age but you got to start somewhere.And everyone wants to refer to Arnold and how young he was well look at all the problems he had having a kid.And I am sure there are many other problems these pro's have that we don't know about.GH you are a very knowledgeable person and you say you run your own gym and you must do good in selling your methods too these young skinny kids like you have done here.But I have morals and will not advise a young kid or some skinny guy to jump on the juice just because he wants to get big now.I worked in a gym once and seen guys running cycles only a pro would do and they all looked like they never touched a weight.This is just my opinion and the way I feel a young or skinny guy wants advice on running aas they can go else where at least I will be able to sleep knowing I didn't help someone mess up their health or life.

I couldn't agree more with this comment. Safety is ALWAYS the number 1 priority. I have people approach me all the time in the gym asking what they need to do to build mass. I know they are looking for the response "take XYZ and pair it with ABC" and I will NEVER give that advice. I typically ask them how big they want to be and talk about eating for that weight. If you want to be 200lbs then you need to eat what a 200lb man will eat. Then, I will discuss training and if they ask about supplements I will tell them to do some research on Whey and Creatine. I also tell them to do their research and be careful who they get advice from in the gym because it's usually the wrong info.

[cousinmuscles]

note sure where this came from. not once have I advocated for kids to use AAS. quite the opposite, my posts generally tell guys to wait till at least 25 26 or even better yet when they are in their 30s..

think you are confusing a made up scenario with something I'm advocating. thats a misunderstanding on your part.

the made up scenario had two twins, one starting gear at age 23 and the other at age 26 . and then seeing who builds the better physique over time (did waiting and being natural longer have a better effect or did starting earlier have a better effect).

^ that scenario was for discussion and debate. it had NOTHING to do with advocating for young guys or 'kids' like you say using steroids. not sure where you got that from. the point of the thread and discussion isn't even about 'age' per se. heck lets change the ages in the scenario and make it 30 and 33 and see who builds the better physique by 40.

this thread has nothing to do with young guys starting AAS let alone me advocating for that

so openly accusing me of "selling my methods" and getting kids on steroids is WAY OUT OF LINE Imo

and as far as untrained or skinny guys , well the scenario also said these two twins had 3 years of solid training and diet, and thus a good foundation

Well you have openly said you have been sent free products by companies (sponsorship?) and are trying them out, and that they were obviously good lol, so some suspicion that someone's selling something will arise like it or not

[1moreset024]

Which twin would be stronger in lifts? Which twin would be a healthy old man with his own heart valves?

[Obs]

Which twin would be stronger in lifts? Which twin would be a healthy old man with his own heart valves?

Not I ! Lol

[kelkel]

This is a hypothetical scenario guys. Nothing more.

[Obs]

This is a hypothetical scenario guys. Nothing more.

Now Kel, GH isn't being a hypocrite, its just a pretend situation.

[Obs]

I really crap some golden nuggets here at times.
I oughta be paid for this.

[kelkel]

It's Christmas, I'll be nice and won't pounce on easy prey.

[Obs]

It's Christmas, I'll be nice and won't pounce on easy prey.

I was unaware you were religious.
Its ok to pray, free speech.

[1moreset024]

I was unaware you were religious.
Its ok to pray, free speech.

Hehehe .....pray.....

[kronik420]

a lot of the guys that come here asking for advice on their first cycle are probably doing so because they are having doubts and they are scared, they have never injected themselves with anything in their lives, and now they gotta do it 2-4x per week.. and if someone is ready to do their first cycle then they should have done enough research to put together a good first cycle...and don't need to be spoon fed this basic information.

As for the subject of hitting your natural limit before starting AAS, i'd say no you don't have too, but you should be able to put on some size and strength with training and food first, if you can't do it without AAS, then your not going to be able to keep any of the 'gains' that you get from using AAS, case in point, watch what happens to that jingles guy once he gets into PCT...

I would advise someone that is over 6ft tall and under 180 lbs, that they need to eat more food and train harder, and that AAS is not the answer...yet..

[MuscleScience]

My situation is different than most bros. Kinda like Zues and having an HTPA issue from childhood. I got strung along for a number of years with low T and being young. I never touched gear until just before my 26th birthday. All the crazy health risk associated with Low T wasn’t really talked about 15 years ago.

I think it boils down to, if you 18-22 years old and have crazy high natural test and you’re not growing. You either have a poor diet and training or your not going to grow even on cycle. On the flip side of that, if you’re that age and your T is low or on the lower end of normal. A cycle might might benefit that person greatly. I will say, that it seems nowadays that even younger guys are getting blood work done way more than than even the experienced guys did back then. That makes it all a whole lot less dangerous and a guessing game for both newbs and experienced guys alike.

[guitarzan]

I use to have a suga momma when I was around 30. She had fat son that was probably around 14, and his doctor had him on trt. I remember she had preloaded syringes in the fridge, probably had 2/10 of a cc in them. She use to get mad cause every time I went over there to get laid, I would grab a few of those syringes and inject them. Awww the good ol days

[GearHeaded]

I use to have a suga momma when I was around 30. She had fat son that was probably around 14, and his doctor had him on trt. I remember she had preloaded syringes in the fridge, probably had 2/10 of a cc in them. She use to get mad cause every time I went over there to get laid, I would grab a few of those syringes and inject them. Awww the good ol days

lol, thank you guitarzan for lightening up this thread . it was all just about scenarios and open discussion , nothing serious to begin with

[The Deadlifting Dog]

the general consensus that you hear parroted on forums and in gyms all the time is that you should wait until you hit your maximum natural genetic potential before starting to use steroids.

I've tried to stay out of it because the answer is so damn obvious but misleading.
Of course, whoever uses more gear wins.

But, whoever uses more gear loses in the health department.

Steroids are bad for you. no ifs ands or buts.
(if you have low T, a regimen that puts you in normal range is healthy but please note: a normal range wouldn't require blood letting and an AI. Think 60-100mg/week)

The reason people should come damn close to reaching their natural limit is...
It isn't wise to risk one's health to do what can be done naturally.

Also, most people would be far better off perfecting their diet and training rather than upping their dose.

[Obs]

Now Kel, GH isn't being a hypocrite, its just a pretend situation.

Now wth... All the likes I get on my posts but not one hit on this????
I don't want to alarm anyone but humor is slipping around here.

[SwoleAnchelada]

wondering why some of you guys would assume that the natural twin is somehow going to work harder cause he's natural.

I've been natty for years , and I've been on gear for years . I can say that anytime I'm running a cycle I'm working a hell of a lot harder or at least as hard as my natty self.

why assume that a natural lifter somehow works harder ? why assume that an enhanced lifter is taking short cuts and does not have a hard working mind set then a natural lifter ?

my thoughts are guys like Branch Warren (who use AAS), an IFBB pro, probably has worked harder throughout his career then most any all natural Pro . just an opinion.

besides, running heavy ass ASS cycles is hard damn work in and of itself . not being able to sleep , tren insomnia and night sweats, getting tired walking up one flight of stairs, being hot and sweating all the time, being anabolic and anxious all the time , thats some pain in the ass hard shit that natties never have to deal with
add on top of that the 20 injections per week, staying on top of your dosages, ancillaries, and studying all the time to make sure you know your doing shit right in regards to AAS . its hard work.

natties just train, count their macros, and thats about it. a lot more work goes into being enhanced. its the difference like maintaining a ford focus compared to a formula one race car (a lot more work goes into maintenance on the race car)

I like this argument

All things being equal AAS twin wins, the moment you add in "psychological, hard work, lessons learned, etc" your changing the question too: " twin A - AAS + (all these considerations) vs twin B + AAS + (all these considerations), if anyone has a math background, anything in nature is dependant on and effected by other things, when you remove ALL other considerations it's called "imposing constraints" on an equation, scientists do it try and make their work easier, but when too many constraints are placed the results are irrelevant because they can't be created in the real world

Questions like the OP are fun, because if you take them at face value the answer is straightforward, but the "what ifs" are the equivalent of changing the constraints on the original question, back to math, modelling changes in anything, growth, strength, size, fat, muscle, whatever, requires calculus and more specifically PDEs (see chaos theory) which are dependant on ALL initial conditions/constraints

That's also why this forum is so beneficial, because reading about someone's actual AAS experience vs the scientific studies allow research to be applied in the real world to possible point out where lab settings could vary from the real world

[1moreset024]

I've tried to stay out of it because the answer is so damn obvious but misleading.
Of course, whoever uses more gear wins.

But, whoever uses more gear loses in the health department.

Steroids are bad for you. no ifs ands or buts.
(if you have low T, a regimen that puts you in normal range is healthy but please note: a normal range wouldn't require blood letting and an AI. Think 60-100mg/week)

The reason people should come damn close to reaching their natural limit is...
It isn't wise to risk one's health to do what can be done naturally.

Also, most people would be far better off perfecting their diet and training rather than upping their dose.

Very good summary and outlook on the scenario

[riks]

Use garcinia cambogia for proper weight loss and for doing sugar cravings less.

[70rs]

Really good read, I've been natural my whole life, so I only have my point of view,3 years of lifting for a natty isn't really a long time to max your potential, there are so many things to consider,diet ,lifting routines, 2 adays,or letting ure body rest longer, when your natty it takes longer for ure body to respond to changes,you learn alot about yourself, if you go on juice early how do you really know if you've given it your 101%? The muscles react to steroids much more favourably protein synthesis etc. Not saying you don't give 100% on cycle of course we all go balls out,just not sure what you gauge it against? Again keep in mind I've only been natural and will start my first cycle in June so I only have my point of view.

[cody199477]

Didn’t read all the replies but starting gear sooner will result in more muscle mass, twin b will be more jacked at age 30. The draw back is if they hop off gear twin b will loose a lot more muscle, if not almost all of what he gained from gear. There are so many other factors that come into play as well, such has if tiwn b blasts crazy amounts incorrectly then the law of diminishing returns will come into play but if he has everything available to him like pharma grade gh and uses it correctly then muscle hyperplasia will occur, allowing him to push past even his aas potential; changing his genetics.

It boils down to if twin b has all the resources he needs to allow muscle hyperplasia to occur it’s game over. On another note I don’t think someone can hit there natty limit in just 3 years.

[riks]

I love workout and i am a gym freak really want yu to try a Hgh and steroids i am using they are manufactured in india and at a great a price. buy
it from studtropin.com

[DocToxin8]

Funny thread. Naturally one would go with twin B having the most muscle mass, but it’s not a sure thing.
Tendons and ligaments will tolerate juice better after more training.
In this case both have trained hard natty for 3 years, so those noob gains have stopped anyhow.
But still, twin B using juice might get injured (it’s a higher risk than when natty), and AAS also work best the first years on.
So by 30 they might very well be equal, Although id say that if twin B has been smart about it he has the edge and should be bigger having had more time on juice.

Health wise, etc though, and what happens past 30 until 40, here twin A might go past twin B.

But if one is to just simplify this then yes, twin b has juiced for longer and they’ve trained the same amount, so he’ll be bigger.