Do I need an AI?

I'm fairly new to roid use and have currently been on a very mild cycle of ~25-50 mg of Dbol a day. I have seen many conflicting opinions in whether it's better to take an AI from day one, or to take one as needed through a cycle. I haven't bothered taking any yet, on account of the low dose of dbol, but I have noticed sore nipples, and general bitchiness. Should I begin taking an AI? The only one I have available to me is arimistane, which I've heard people say is mild but has a "high margin of error" (not sure what that means). Do I need to worry about my sore nipples and male PMS? or are these relatively mild/common symptoms.
Thanks all

If your nipples are sore then yes you should take an ai, start with the lowest reccomended
Dosage for whatever ai you use. Over dosing your ai and crashing your estrogen would be worse than the high estrogen symptoms are in the first place.

You should always have an ai on hand before running your cycle.

Your nipples are sore because your running dbol with no test. Estrogen is winning the battle at your mammary gland. You need to discontinue the dbo because it’s suppressing your natty test production

yeah, I figured as such and have stopped taking the Dbol for 3 days now. Nips are still sore, and I'm considering buying some test cyp. so is this something that might be fine without an AI if I just started stacking the test?

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Originally Posted by saragreen

yeah, I figured as such and have stopped taking the Dbol for 3 days now. Nips are still sore, and I'm considering buying some test cyp. so is this something that might be fine without an AI if I just started stacking the test?

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No you'll need an AI even more with test added.

Find the first successful cycle thread

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rst-cycle.html

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Originally Posted by saragreen

yeah, I figured as such and have stopped taking the Dbol for 3 days now. Nips are still sore, and I'm considering buying some test cyp. so is this something that might be fine without an AI if I just started stacking the test?

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No, probably not, adding exogenous Test will likely make it worse, people are different, but you'd likely still need an AI depending on how much Test/Dbol your running. You'd only know for sure with proper bloodwork.

Sounds like this is your first rodeo. I'd strongly encourage you to read this, then reconsider your options.

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rst-cycle.html

I didn't see any details about you in your post, but maybe consider running just the Test cycle. If you stick with the Dbol, get something like NAC to help out your liver.

Best of luck,
C-

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Originally Posted by Couchlockd

No you'll need an AI even more with test added.

Find the first successful cycle thread

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Ya, what he said too.... :)

Yes, sore nipples mean you need an AI.
Running an oral only cycle is a bad idea. As the guys above said, drop the Dbol and stick with test c or e 500mg/wk.
Nipple soreness means your estrogen is going high and if you don’t take any preventive measure while continuing on a Dbol cycle, you will most likely end up with Gyno.
Read the sticky by Austinite about executing your first cycle.

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Originally Posted by saragreen

I'm fairly new to roid use and have currently been on a very mild cycle of ~25-50 mg of Dbol a day. I have seen many conflicting opinions in whether it's better to take an AI from day one, or to take one as needed through a cycle. I haven't bothered taking any yet, on account of the low dose of dbol, but I have noticed sore nipples, and general bitchiness. Should I begin taking an AI? The only one I have available to me is arimistane, which I've heard people say is mild but has a "high margin of error" (not sure what that means). Do I need to worry about my sore nipples and male PMS? or are these relatively mild/common symptoms.
Thanks all

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First of all. I dont think 50 mg Dbol is mild at all.
Second, if u cant get your hands on AI, there is stil a solution. Get yourself some quality DIM. 100 mg for 100 mg test f.i. When i run 500 test, 500 mg DIM will cut it for me.
And unless ur well over 15%, i guess 500 mg DIM ed would cut it for most guys when running up to 500 mg test. I guess it would work for 30-40 mg Dbol aswell. For 50 im not sure. Maybe 700 mg but bit expensive.

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Sil, curious if you've had blood work and E levels checked while running DIM. From my understanding DIM has some anti estrogenic properties to it, but in men it acts more as an androgen antagonist (blocking the effects of androgens on AR receptors) and thats why its often supplemented by men with prostate cancer..
of course for someone using AAS and wanting to build muscle and fully stimulate the AR, DIM would seem like a poor choice (sure you get some anti estrogenic effects, but you do so at the cost of blunting androgens . . . which would not be all that bad if it was just limited to DHT, but I think its blunting androgen activity all together) .

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

Sil, curious if you've had blood work and E levels checked while running DIM. From my understanding DIM has some anti estrogenic properties to it, but in men it acts more as an androgen antagonist (blocking the effects of androgens on AR receptors) and thats why its often supplemented by men with prostate cancer..
of course for someone using AAS and wanting to build muscle and fully stimulate the AR, DIM would seem like a poor choice (sure you get some anti estrogenic effects, but you do so at the cost of blunting androgens . . . which would not be all that bad if it was just limited to DHT, but I think its blunting androgen activity all together) .

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Ok. First of all. Ive been in this shit so long so i dont need BW to determind my e2. When i started with Nebido without DIM, i felt high e2 symptoms. When i added 200 mg DIM, they went away.
Last time i ran test 500 i couldnt get my hands on AI and i tried 500 mg DIM. Surprisingly it worked.

Never heard that one before. That DIM blocks ARs. I know what degraded reseptors feels like and i never felt that running DIM

Austinite..one of this forum top gurus talks about DIM and how he uses it with his TRT with sucess.

So i stil believe DIM is great. Based on personall experiened. Not on broknowledge or another Internet study.

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Sil meet gearhead. Gearhead meet Sil.

Can’t wait to hear a good friendly discussion on this.

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Originally Posted by Capebuffalo

Sil meet gearhead. Gearhead meet Sil.

Can’t wait to hear a good friendly discussion on this.

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Eh..u are allowed as a monitor to join the discussions Cape...so why dont u give us your take on running 500 test with 500 mg DIM for estrogen controll..

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Originally Posted by AR's Dr.Silabolin

Eh..u are allowed as a monitor to join the discussions Cape...so why dont u give us your take on running 500 test with 500 mg DIM for estrogen controll..

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I don’t have any knowledge on DIM.

I normally don’t run an ai myself. I will take when needed. And then it’s usually less than the recommended .25 mg eod.

GH is extreamly well versed on the use of AI’s. I think you two sharing your different approaches will be educational for a lot of people. This is always a big question that comes up.

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Originally Posted by AR's Dr.Silabolin

Ok. First of all. Ive been in this shit so long so i dont need BW to determind my e2. When i started with Nebido without DIM, i felt high e2 symptoms. When i added 200 mg DIM, they went away.
Last time i ran test 500 i couldnt get my hands on AI and i tried 500 mg DIM. Surprisingly it worked.

Never heard that one before. That DIM blocks ARs. I know what degraded reseptors feels like and i never felt that running DIM

Austinite..one of this forum top gurus talks about DIM and how he uses it with his TRT with sucess.

So i stil believe DIM is great. Based on personall experiened. Not on broknowledge or another Internet study.

Sent fra min SM-N9005 via Tapatalk

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I'm not doubting your experience in any way there Sil . and I know exactly what you mean in regards to blood work (like you, I don't waste my money getting e2 levels checked these days, I know exactly how 5x normal E levels feel like, and I know exactly what 2 weeks worth of Letro will do).

I've personally never used DIM before for estrogen control. However I'm aware of it and it was fairly popular in the early 2000s (along with Lycopene) . I'm sure your aware that there are many many forms of Estrogen in the body , and that Estrogen is a generic term that refers to all of them in general (kinda like the term "steroid" refers to the thousands of different steroids, and that there is not simply ONE 'steroid'). DIM is best known for decreasing 'bad estrogens'.

Di-indoly-methane (DIM), lndol-3- carbinol (1-3-C), lycopene, do have studies supporting their beneficial effects upon decreasing bad estrogens while increasing the good. DIM and 1-3-C both potentially aid in estrogen deactivation and evacuation. They do so by inhibiting the conversion enzyme responsible for 16a-Hydroxyestrone formation. This then forces the body to utilize the C-2 pathway and increase the production of 2a-Hydroxyestrone. The body then excretes the inactive metabolite of 2a-Hydroxyestrone rather quickly and effectively. This results in less total circulatory estrogens as well.

One of the 'gurus' that I followed for a long time (until he passed away a few years ago) , Author L. Rea , had used DIM with some of his athletes. However at the time I believe Author was unaware of new research that was coming out showing DIM to be an Androgen Antagonist and better utilized for prostate problems and blocking androgen receptors there then it was as an anti estrogen.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm simply sharing some information with you that perhaps you may of been un aware of, and in the future said information could be of benefit to you and your progress.
but if something works for someone personally, then all the more power to them, keep doing what works

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

I'm not doubting your experience in any way there Sil . and I know exactly what you mean in regards to blood work (like you, I don't waste my money getting e2 levels checked these days, I know exactly how 5x normal E levels feel like, and I know exactly what 2 weeks worth of Letro will do).

I've personally never used DIM before for estrogen control. However I'm aware of it and it was fairly popular in the early 2000s (along with Lycopene) . I'm sure your aware that there are many many forms of Estrogen in the body , and that Estrogen is a generic term that refers to all of them in general (kinda like the term "steroid" refers to the thousands of different steroids, and that there is not simply ONE 'steroid'). DIM is best known for decreasing 'bad estrogens'.

Di-indoly-methane (DIM), lndol-3- carbinol (1-3-C), lycopene, do have studies supporting their beneficial effects upon decreasing bad estrogens while increasing the good. DIM and 1-3-C both potentially aid in estrogen deactivation and evacuation. They do so by inhibiting the conversion enzyme responsible for 16a-Hydroxyestrone formation. This then forces the body to utilize the C-2 pathway and increase the production of 2a-Hydroxyestrone. The body then excretes the inactive metabolite of 2a-Hydroxyestrone rather quickly and effectively. This results in less total circulatory estrogens as well.

One of the 'gurus' that I followed for a long time (until he passed away a few years ago) , Author L. Rea , had used DIM with some of his athletes. However at the time I believe Author was unaware of new research that was coming out showing DIM to be an Androgen Antagonist and better utilized for prostate problems and blocking androgen receptors there then it was as an anti estrogen.

I'm not looking for a debate. I'm simply sharing some information with you that perhaps you may of been un aware of, and in the future said information could be of benefit to you and your progress.
but if something works for someone personally, then all the more power to them, keep doing what works

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Yes but DIM is based on micros we find in the most healthy veggies there is. Cowliflowers (dont bother with googling the spelling) and brocholli. How could those block ARs?

And remember, AIs are bad news for cholestrol and many experts ( i disagree though) believe low hdl high ldl increase chances of getting stroke and heartattach.

And i never heard DIM users complain about a mysterious gremlin in their stack preventing optimal gains.

So as we speak i stil will use DIM if i cant get my hands on AIs.

But thanks for new info and maybe i will reconsider after i have red the study.

Shame ur not into debates. My best knowledge and info always comes from high temp debates;)

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gearheaded is like Ben Shapiro, you cant debate him, he knows everything.

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Originally Posted by AR's Dr.Silabolin

And remember, AIs are bad news for cholestrol and many experts ( i disagree though) believe low hdl high ldl increase chances of getting stroke and heartattach.

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completely agree here . I'm not a fan of AI use (except when absolutely needed, for those super sensitive to estrogen, or for contest prep) and they do have negative effects on cholesterol (because of their effect on total blood levels of estrogen) .
I prefer, if needed, a SERM like Nolvadex on cycle at low dose to keep negative estrogen sided in check at the receptor, while allowing higher blood levels of estrogen and thus more estrogen to pass through the liver promoting the production of HDL cholesterol and IGF (I just think for most cases thats a better scenario then crashing blood levels of E with an AI).

but yeah, there is really zero evidence to suggest that low HDL or high LDL are directly correlated to heart disease in the first place. In fact I seen some recent stats that showed that people with low total cholesterol and low LDL had a higher mortality rate.
new research is showing that LDL is NOT in fact "bad cholesterol" at all and that its quite beneficial

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Originally Posted by AR's Dr.Silabolin

Shame ur not into debates. My best knowledge and info always comes from high temp debates;)

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true,, Iron sharpens Iron, brother

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

completely agree here . I'm not a fan of AI use (except when absolutely need

but yeah, there is really zero evidence to suggest that low HDL or high LDL are directly correlated to heart disease in the first place. In fact I seen some recent stats that showed that people with low total cholesterol and low LDL had a higher mortality rate.
new research is showing that LDL is NOT in fact "bad cholesterol" at all and that its quite beneficial

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Where were u before when i needed u?

U know kel kel? He is one of the most respected vets and i have tried many times to make him forget about old school cholestrol knowledge. But noway.
And all others follow kel...
I almost got my self baned in those cholestrol discussions. Before i got my real ban.

Finally i found a guy who is up for those experts who have written books about the Cholestrol Myth.
My favourite is Uffe Ravnskov (Danish). He says there is no such thing as bad cholestrol and food got nothing to do with cholestrol and a degraded immunsystem, high BP, genetics and virus and bachterias are what causes arterieschlorisis. Your boat doesnt sink because there is too much water.

And rigth..he also says those with high LDL live longer.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AR's Dr.Silabolin

Where were u before when i needed u?

U know kel kel? He is one of the most respected vets and i have tried many times to make him forget about old school cholestrol knowledge. But noway.
And all others follow kel...
I almost got my self baned in those cholestrol discussions. Before i got my real ban.

Finally i found a guy who is up for those experts who have written books about the Cholestrol Myth.
My favourite is Uffe Ravnskov (Danish). He says there is no such thing as bad cholestrol and food got nothing to do with cholestrol and a degraded immunsystem, high BP, genetics and virus and bachterias are what causes arterieschlorisis. Your boat doesnt sink because there is too much water.

And rigth..he also says those with high LDL live longer.


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sounds like we have similar views


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyIqYumAVN8&t=279s

Dr. Nadir Ali (a cardiologist for 25+ years) on demystifying cholesterol . he has some good lectures on you tube

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Originally Posted by AR's Dr.Silabolin

Where were u before when i needed u?

U know kel kel? He is one of the most respected vets and i have tried many times to make him forget about old school cholestrol knowledge. But noway.
And all others follow kel...
I almost got my self baned in those cholestrol discussions. Before i got my real ban.

Finally i found a guy who is up for those experts who have written books about the Cholestrol Myth.
My favourite is Uffe Ravnskov (Danish). He says there is no such thing as bad cholestrol and food got nothing to do with cholestrol and a degraded immunsystem, high BP, genetics and virus and bachterias are what causes arterieschlorisis. Your boat doesnt sink because there is too much water.

And rigth..he also says those with high LDL live longer.


Sent fra min SM-N9005 via Tapatalk

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Are you familiar with Gary Taubes ? He's got some great books that you might like :

Good Calories, Bad Calories: Challenging the Conventional Wisdom on Diet, Weight Control, and Disease
NUTRITION: The Soft Science of Dietary Fat
The Case Against Sugar

Ive just started reading Good Cal Bad Cal and plan to read the others in due time.

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Originally Posted by Windex

Are you familiar with Gary Taubes ? He's got some great books that you might like :

Good Calories, Bad Calories: Challenging the Conventional Wisdom on Diet, Weight Control, and Disease
NUTRITION: The Soft Science of Dietary Fat
The Case Against Sugar

Ive just started reading Good Cal Bad Cal and plan to read the others in due time.

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Interessting.

So whats your take on what causes arterieschlorosis?
Remember Piana had like just 10% thickening which is nomal compared to his age when he passed.

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

sounds like we have similar views


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyIqYumAVN8&t=279s

Dr. Nadir Ali (a cardiologist for 25+ years) on demystifying cholesterol . he has some good lectures on you tube

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You two do.
Sil was saying a lot about AI you do long ago. Not bringing up past but it was recieved very... Not well.
You two have a lot of similar views that were new to this voard and I appreciated them.