Gyno Development

6'0, 250lbs, 13%BF (estimated by IFBB pro in person), Powerlifter looking to push into a 2k+ total. Many year training history. Sought out a coach to assist in running my cycle and he abandoned me in the middle of the cycle when things started going poor.

Several previous cycles but mostly on the more moderate side. Decided it was worth the risk to go harder.
Cycle as follows:
EQ 1 gram - UGL
Test C 700 - pharmacy
Test P 350/week - pharmacy
Tren A 350/week - UGL
Masteron 350/week - UGL
Dbol - 100mg/week - UGL (Started at 20mg and increased by 10mg per week watching liver etc...)

Adex 1mg/daily - pharmacy
Nolvadex 10mg/daily - added week three for itchy nips

Cycle was going very well until around week 7. Frequent labs suddenly revealed an E2 of 150, prolactin of 4.4. Surprising to me since I didn't notice any real estrogenic sides. Immediately ordered Letro and Aromasin from a chem research company just in case. Then in just a few days nipples went from fine, to very sore, to growing lumps and my "coach" stopped responding. Tried to intervene but upping nolvadex to 80mg and adding another mg of Adex till the other arrived. Dropped the Dbol. Then dropped the Tren. Then dropped the Test P. Added Letro at 2.5mg AND aromasin at 25mg.

Five days running Aromasin, Letro, Arimidex (now 1mg), E2 came back at 120, Prolactin 10. Nipples are still really painful but growth seems to have stopped. The left nipple may actually be very slightly improved. So left nipple has 1cm semi-firm lump with swollen gland that extends very slightly towards the left armpit. Right nipple has a semi-firm 2cm lump directly under the nipple, 1cm semi-firm just to the right, swollen gland, and extends 3 cm towards the armpit. All measurements are rough estimates and I am super thankful nothing is really visible with my shirt off.

I'm not crying, I knew the risks. Still hopeful much of it will reduce down. Reaching out to figure out what happened? Why so sudden? Suggestions for where to go from here? I have a competition in 6 weeks with some decent prize money but I don't want to allow these to grow further or allow them to become more permanent.


Thoughts?

I think the general consensus is to try taking Tamoxifen or Raloxifene to reverse the gyno. I think the there is a generally positive prognosis for new growth reversal with those two drugs.

I cannot speak much for the high E2 levels. You may have an elevated level on test due to the tren. Letro along with all the other drugs should have absolutely destroyed you e2 level. If you havn't tried the sensitive estradol test that may provide a more accurate number.

Stay tuned, I'm sure a experienced vet will chime in soon.

Edit:
This may serve as some good reading while you wait:
https://forums.steroid.com/education...treatment.html
https://forums.steroid.com/education...armachine.html

Im no vet, or expert but i try help you littlebit.

You done smart in dropping the dbol, and the other compounds you mention.
Sure letro should help you to kill your estrogen levels, and stop the devlopment of the gyno, but it will not destroy it.

With the nolvadex you should experience the gyno to start go away/get smaller after about 2 weeks, if it works continue with the nolvadex until you get rid of it.

If the nolvadex dont help, you can always try Raloxifene.

I just have to ask, iknow its easy to touch them non stop and feeling them all the time, but try to avoid this as much as possible, you just make the lumps irritated and more swollen.
The best way is to take your arm over the head, use to fingers and feel the lumps gently.

The gyno is a hell, had mastectomy done myself and removed the glands, the surgery itself isnt so bad, but it cost, and you are never sure of the result.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by liquidrain

6'0, 250lbs, 13%BF (estimated by IFBB pro in person), Powerlifter looking to push into a 2k+ total. Many year training history. Sought out a coach to assist in running my cycle and he abandoned me in the middle of the cycle when things started going poor.

Several previous cycles but mostly on the more moderate side. Decided it was worth the risk to go harder.
Cycle as follows:
EQ 1 gram - UGL
Test C 700 - pharmacy
Test P 350/week - pharmacy
Tren A 350/week - UGL
Masteron 350/week - UGL
Dbol - 100mg/week - UGL (Started at 20mg and increased by 10mg per week watching liver etc...)

Adex 1mg/daily - pharmacy
Nolvadex 10mg/daily - added week three for itchy nips

Cycle was going very well until around week 7. Frequent labs suddenly revealed an E2 of 150, prolactin of 4.4. Surprising to me since I didn't notice any real estrogenic sides. Immediately ordered Letro and Aromasin from a chem research company just in case. Then in just a few days nipples went from fine, to very sore, to growing lumps and my "coach" stopped responding. Tried to intervene but upping nolvadex to 80mg and adding another mg of Adex till the other arrived. Dropped the Dbol. Then dropped the Tren. Then dropped the Test P. Added Letro at 2.5mg AND aromasin at 25mg.

Five days running Aromasin, Letro, Arimidex (now 1mg), E2 came back at 120, Prolactin 10. Nipples are still really painful but growth seems to have stopped. The left nipple may actually be very slightly improved. So left nipple has 1cm semi-firm lump with swollen gland that extends very slightly towards the left armpit. Right nipple has a semi-firm 2cm lump directly under the nipple, 1cm semi-firm just to the right, swollen gland, and extends 3 cm towards the armpit. All measurements are rough estimates and I am super thankful nothing is really visible with my shirt off.

I'm not crying, I knew the risks. Still hopeful much of it will reduce down. Reaching out to figure out what happened? Why so sudden? Suggestions for where to go from here? I have a competition in 6 weeks with some decent prize money but I don't want to allow these to grow further or allow them to become more permanent.


Thoughts?

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as you stated your letro and aromasin were from research chem company so most prob they were underdosed and test c takes time to build up in system and your dbol dose for that week was high too.that all added up to raise your e2 levels . for that high test and dbol you should've ran ai from the beginning at low dose and adjusted accordingly.

Once the gland grows you can only shrink it so much with nolva/letro/arimidex but once you start your next cycle it ll get worse from there unless you kill your e2 .the only way to get rid of gyno is surgery.

if you want to compete i would suggest get your estrogen under control first. then drop dbol down to 50 on training days only .drop test p and stick with test c at same dose keep eq at same dose keep tren at same dose keep caber on hand for any prolactin sides .drop mast too and order some halotestin to use two weeks before the meet at 30 mg on training days and 60 mg on the day you are going to compete

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ksingh93

if you want to compete i would suggest get your estrogen under control first. then drop dbol down to 50 on training days only .drop test p and stick with test c at same dose keep eq at same dose keep tren at same dose keep caber on hand for any prolactin sides .drop mast too and order some halotestin to use two weeks before the meet at 30 mg on training days and 60 mg on the day you are going to compete

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why keep taking all that, YET drop the Masteron ?
especially when he is having estrogen and progestin based "Mast" (ie, breast tissue) side effects. MASTeron was a drug invented to deal with breast tissue issues due to hormones, as it has both estrogen and prolactin blunting effects at the receptor level (thats why its called "Mast"eron).
if anything, thats one drug he should keep in considering his current situation

note- the root word "mast" means "Breast" -- eg., Mastectomy , Masteron

if he is taking any ai and caber at right doses he wont need masterone in there .its just an extra compound that doesnt belong in his cycle as his goal is to ace powerlifting meet not physique competition

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ksingh93

if he is taking any ai and caber at right doses he wont need masterone in there .its just an extra compound that doesnt belong in his cycle as his goal is to ace powerlifting meet not physique competition

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an AI doesn't work at the receptor level though (and won't blunt estrogenic effects at breast tissue).
your confusing Masteron as a recreational drug used by physique competitors to acheive a certain look, rather then Masteron as an actual drug and what it actually medically is used for.
(its same as saying an AI shouldn't be used cause its used for bodybuilders in contest prep lol)
expand your horizons a bit . Mast is way more then a physique drug. its a great ancillary to any highly estrgonic or 19nor progestin based stack (for powerlifting , bulking, etc.)

in OPs situation the last thing I'd do is drop the Mast and go running 50mg of Dbol like you suggest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ksingh93

Mast doesnt belong in his cycle as his goal is to ace powerlifting meet not physique competition

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its pretty obvious the coach that suggested this protocol and using Mast knew that his goal was powerlifting and not a physique comp . Should be pretty clear the coach was using Mast as an ancillary agent , not an Androgenic strength aide.

your telling him to pull out , the one thing the coach did right in this case .

again mast isn't being used in this context as a strength aide, its essentially being used as a SERM . thats why the dosage is only 350mg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

an AI doesn't work at the receptor level though (and won't blunt estrogenic effects at breast tissue).
your confusing Masteron as a recreational drug used by physique competitors to acheive a certain look, rather then Masteron as an actual drug and what it actually medically is used for.
(its same as saying an AI shouldn't be used cause its used for bodybuilders in contest prep lol)
expand your horizons a bit . Mast is way more then a physique drug. its a great ancillary to any highly estrgonic or 19nor progestin based stack (for powerlifting , bulking, etc.)

in OPs situation the last thing I'd do is drop the Mast and go running 50mg of Dbol like you suggest

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If the ai is already keeping the estrogen in normal range why would someone use masteron.achy joints are not fun and not really helpful for his goal thats caused by mast.
the only reason i advices dbol was as he is going for his meet and the last thing i would do is drop something that might help him win that competition .

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

its pretty obvious the coach that suggested this protocol and using Mast knew that his goal was powerlifting and not a physique comp . Should be pretty clear the coach was using Mast as an ancillary agent , not an Androgenic strength aide.

your telling him to pull out , the one thing the coach did right in this case .

again mast isn't being used in this context as a strength aide, its essentially being used as a SERM . thats why the dosage is only 350mg

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well like his coach that didnt worked as well han

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ksingh93

If the ai is already keeping the estrogen in normal range why would someone use masteron.achy joints are not fun and not really helpful for his goal thats caused by mast. .

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lol, the only reason Mast could cause achy joints is through its anti estrogenic properties . . aren't you the one that suggested he lower his estrogen ?

your probably confusing Masteron with Winstrol, thinking it causes achy joints through cortisol suppression.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ksingh93

well like his coach that didnt worked as well han

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it was likely the Mast that was bunk (faked as test prop), and not the AI like you suggested

either way . REAL legit Masteron is something OP should of been taking from day one and should still be on

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

lol, the only reason Mast can cause achy joints is through its ability to lower estrogen. . aren't you the one that suggested he lower his estrogen ? (which isn't good for his goals either)

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yes using masteron with ai is going to be an overkill therefore achy joints .
using masteron alone didnt do much for him.
so why bother using 2 compounds when one can do the trick.i told him to get his estrogen in normal range not kill it .

As mentioned in the original post I was taking arimidex 1mg per day from the start. From previous cycles this was my best estimate of what would be required for the cycle.


I actually think the Masteron has been extremely helpful but I understand it more generally and not all of its complexities. It would typically require much less e2 for me to develop estrogenic sides. Bloats had been very minimal, joints have felt great. Definitely not using it as a physique agent but as an ancillary.


I figured I should probably keep the dbol out. I have oxandralone and Tbol I can use instead. I have Halo for the last week.


Noticeable reduction of tissue today. Left nipple is down to less then .5cm and mostly soft. Right has reduced about 25% and less painful.


Plan is to get estrogen in range (going to be tough not to crash it). Still on Adex 1mg pharmacy, 2.5 letro (research chems), 50 aromosin (research chems). Labs next week. When e2 is more under control restart Tren, replace Dbol with Oxandralone/Tbol, keep out the Test P? Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by liquidrain

As mentioned in the original post I was taking arimidex 1mg per day from the start. From previous cycles this was my best estimate of what would be required for the cycle.


I actually think the Masteron has been extremely helpful but I understand it more generally and not all of its complexities. It would typically require much less e2 for me to develop estrogenic sides. Bloats had been very minimal, joints have felt great. Definitely not using it as a physique agent but as an ancillary.


I figured I should probably keep the dbol out. I have oxandralone and Tbol I can use instead. I have Halo for the last week.


Noticeable reduction of tissue today. Left nipple is down to less then .5cm and mostly soft. Right has reduced about 25% and less painful.


Plan is to get estrogen in range (going to be tough not to crash it). Still on Adex 1mg pharmacy, 2.5 letro (research chems), 50 aromosin (research chems). Labs next week. When e2 is more under control restart Tren, replace Dbol with Oxandralone/Tbol, keep out the Test P? Thoughts?

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Bad idea.
Running that much AI, particularly letro at that dose, is going to crash your E2 too low.
Without test p, there won't be any source to feed your E2 to keep up with letro.
Lower your AI levels and get raloxifene on hand to run along if needed with nolva 20mg daily.
I suggest you to run masteron while dropping test p and dbol then add the tbol into the combination instead.

P.S. forgot to add tren to combination :)
be aware it will show you false E2 values in labs

I have raloxifene on hand I could start. 60mg?

E2 levels must be improving. Would be nice not to crash them, been there done that. So stop the letro (now or in a couple days?) and continue the 1mg adex and 25mg aromasin? Other suggestions?

I had heard that tren caused falsely elevated e2 value but couldn't find any info on it. Have any stickies or posts? How do I measure my e2 values then?

Thanks for everyone's help so far.


(Edit): Found a little information on the tren e2 labs values. Looks like the sensitive e2, as mentioned above, picks it up correctly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by liquidrain

I had heard that tren caused falsely elevated e2 value but couldn't find any info on it. Have any stickies or posts? How do I measure my e2 values then?

Thanks for everyone's help so far.


(Edit): Found a little information on the tren e2 labs values. Looks like the sensitive e2, as mentioned above, picks it up correctly?

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read my posts here. you need the correct lab pulling the blood work

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ml#post7437509

So I can't use privatemdlabs and LabCorp?