for Newbs - Read this before using AAS

[rbg]

Got a friend telling you to use 500mg Test first cycle? or even stacking it with something? All sounds good I bet, and I'm sure you can see images in your mind of how big you're going to get from it.

There's lots of info out there about getting the most from your first cycle, so many people want to take what I consider a high dose first cycle.

Yes, it's true, you'll likely put on more gains using 500mg of Test Cyp, per week, than 200mg. Depending on diet, and training.

The fact is someone taking 500mg of Test Cyp, and 400mg of Deca is going to put on some serious muscle mass in their fist 10 week cycle...great..I hear you say...but your connective tissue and CNS needs more time to adapt.

You may develop great muscle increase, and with it strength increases, but the tendons and CNS may not be able to cope with such a rapid muscle development.

When I began in the early 90's, we were always told to start with orals, yes they're more toxic, but they prepare you for cycles, and are mild in comparison. This gives you time to develop muscle growth, and at the same time steadily increase the strength of your connective tissue. Our rule was to start with mild ones like pronobol 5..increasing the amount per cycle, then moving on to use Anapolon 50's as the transition to injectables. After one or two cycles of Anapolons, then moved onto a Test base cycle. Something like 200mg once per week, or 250mg. No bio degree needed here!

Some may completely disagree with me, and say, 'if I'm going to be shutting down my natty production, then I'm going to make the most of my gain potential, shut down is shut down'. I see the logic in this, but what I feel is being overlooked is the fact that high dose first cycles make you more vulnerable to tendon rips and strains first off. Plus coming off cycle is harder to cope with, and many cave in and jump straight back on cycle because they feel like chit.

By starting on lower doses, you give your body a chance to develop the CNS and connective tissue required to be able to handle the kind of weight you'll likely be able to push, and eventual higher dosed cycles.

I hate to say it, but most people take AAS for the first time because they don't want to put in the time to develop slowly. It's a small proportion of users who have trained for years and hit the plateau, then cycle. Most first time users are younger, eager, and ambitious men who want to get big quick.

With high doses first off, you're more likely to get side effects. Acne, oily skin, major boost in the libido, that has been known to destroy relationships because you can't get enough and get frustrated. And sometimes the mood swings, if you're unlucky, such as temper and irritibility.

Plus starting off lower helps make the diet changes needed to cope with such a large demand on your body. High dosed cycles required considerable protein intake. First users are often not able to keep up with the food intake needed straight away.

I'm not here to tell you to not do it. You will most likely have already made your mind up, that's why you're already here isn't it? but if my old fashioned approach to using AAS stops one reader from jumping in high and ripping a tendon or two - then it's a success.

Nerd up on Hypogonadism, and it's cause when using AAS - known as ASIH (Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism) Make sure you understand the risks, and can live with it, and also know what to do in the event you stop using.

Nerd up on PCT, this is as important as the on cycle itself.

Believe me, if you've never used gear before, and start on a low dose 200mg, or 250mg Test per week, you will gain. Then you can increase slowly over time. Starting off on 500mg costs more, has more side risks, and can hurt you if you're newish to training (refering to CNS preparation and connective tissue injuries).

Starting on higher doses can put a lot of pressure on you, pressure that you may not be prepared to commit to straight away.

Body building can be an enjoyable experience, if you do it right from the beginning.

Please read all the stickies on this forum. Most of the Vets on here are guys trying to prevent you from making the same mistakes they did, and pass on knowledge that had to be learned the hard way. Who are you going to listen to, a vet BB, or your newb friend who 'seems' to know alot because he read a few articles on steroids?

Good luck

[marcus300]

Starting on a low dose of 200mgs per week isnt going to do much IMHO, there are studies what show you need at least 300mgs per week to increase muscle tissue.

[sean_holland]

I see what your saying, and a good warning for everyone to educate themselves before doing anything that is going to alter their chemistry. But I have to agree with Marcus, gains are going to be lacking at very best with 200mgs a week. You need to find a happy medium between all the factors.

You must TRAIN NATURALLY (for YEARS) and have substantial gains from natural training and proper diet.

You must KNOW YOUR PCT & AAS before you use.

You must BE PREPARED for the side effects.

Don't be a retard, know what your doing!

[dec11]

Got a friend telling you to use 500mg Test first cycle? or even stacking it with something? All sounds good I bet, and I'm sure you can see images in your mind of how big you're going to get from it.

There's lots of info out there about getting the most from your first cycle, so many people want to take what I consider a high dose first cycle.

Yes, it's true, you'll likely put on more gains using 500mg of Test Cyp, per week, than 200mg. Depending on diet, and training.

The fact is someone taking 500mg of Test Cyp, and 400mg of Deca is going to put on some serious muscle mass in their fist 10 week cycle...great..I hear you say...but your connective tissue and CNS needs more time to adapt.

You may develop great muscle increase, and with it strength increases, but the tendons and CNS may not be able to cope with such a rapid muscle development.

When I began in the early 90's, we were always told to start with orals, yes they're more toxic, but they prepare you for cycles, and are mild in comparison. This gives you time to develop muscle growth, and at the same time steadily increase the strength of your connective tissue. Our rule was to start with mild ones like pronobol 5..increasing the amount per cycle, then moving on to use Anapolon 50's as the transition to injectables. After one or two cycles of Anapolons, then moved onto a Test base cycle. Something like 200mg once per week, or 250mg. No bio degree needed here!

Some may completely disagree with me, and say, 'if I'm going to be shutting down my natty production, then I'm going to make the most of my gain potential, shut down is shut down'. I see the logic in this, but what I feel is being overlooked is the fact that high dose first cycles make you more vulnerable to tendon rips and strains first off. Plus coming off cycle is harder to cope with, and many cave in and jump straight back on cycle because they feel like chit.

By starting on lower doses, you give your body a chance to develop the CNS and connective tissue required to be able to handle the kind of weight you'll likely be able to push, and eventual higher dosed cycles.

I hate to say it, but most people take AAS for the first time because they don't want to put in the time to develop slowly. It's a small proportion of users who have trained for years and hit the plateau, then cycle. Most first time users are younger, eager, and ambitious men who want to get big quick.

With high doses first off, you're more likely to get side effects. Acne, oily skin, major boost in the libido, that has been known to destroy relationships because you can't get enough and get frustrated. And sometimes the mood swings, if you're unlucky, such as temper and irritibility.

Plus starting off lower helps make the diet changes needed to cope with such a large demand on your body. High dosed cycles required considerable protein intake. First users are often not able to keep up with the food intake needed straight away.

I'm not here to tell you to not do it. You will most likely have already made your mind up, that's why you're already here isn't it? but if my old fashioned approach to using AAS stops one reader from jumping in high and ripping a tendon or two - then it's a success.

Nerd up on Hypogonadism, and it's cause when using AAS - known as ASIH (Anabolic Steroid Induced Hypogonadism) Make sure you understand the risks, and can live with it, and also know what to do in the event you stop using.

Nerd up on PCT, this is as important as the on cycle itself.

Believe me, if you've never used gear before, and start on a low dose 200mg, or 250mg Test per week, you will gain. Then you can increase slowly over time. Starting off on 500mg costs more, has more side risks, and can hurt you if you're newish to training (refering to CNS preparation and connective tissue injuries).

Starting on higher doses can put a lot of pressure on you, pressure that you may not be prepared to commit to straight away.

Body building can be an enjoyable experience, if you do it right from the beginning.

Please read all the stickies on this forum. Most of the Vets on here are guys trying to prevent you from making the same mistakes they did, and pass on knowledge that had to be learned the hard way. Who are you going to listen to, a vet BB, or your newb friend who 'seems' to know alot because he read a few articles on steroids?

Good luck

stupid and reckless 'advice'

[Dizz28]

When I began in the early 90's, we were always told to start with orals, yes they're more toxic, but they prepare you for cycles, and are mild in comparison. This gives you time to develop muscle growth, and at the same time steadily increase the strength of your connective tissue. Our rule was to start with mild ones like pronobol 5..increasing the amount per cycle, then moving on to use Anapolon 50's as the transition to injectables. After one or two cycles of Anapolons, then moved onto a Test base cycle. Something like 200mg once per week, or 250mg. No bio degree needed here!



Good luck

Go back even further and some guys used to down their Dbol pills with protein shakes mixed with whiskey..

My, have we gotten smarter....

[PK-V]

this is where the slingshot theory can come into play?

10 weeks on and then a deload as you come off to give room for CNS adaptations to take place before going back on to allow the tendons to develop

how is CNS adaptation relevant is it not more specifically relevant to strength as strength is a result of increased CNS synchronization with the muscle therefore allowing you to lift more with the same muscle fibers, how does this fare with hypertrophy specific training?

[Exilus]

My friend has been doing what you're saying. His 3 first cycles were all dosed at less than 300 mg of test per week.

Starting weight before first cycle: 190 at 6'2
current weight after PCT of his 4th (and first real dosed) cycle: 210.


His 3x 250 mg sustanon cycles just gave him 20 lbs of bloating, that he lost after pct. his first lasting gains came from a 600mg test cycle.

4 cycles and he barely benches 2 plates, doing something similar to what you advice.

Oh, and after the second cycle he developpped erectile dysfunction. so side effects are still there.

Useless.

[rbg]

My friend has been doing what you're saying. His 3 first cycles were all dosed at less than 300 mg of test per week.

Starting weight before first cycle: 190 at 6'2
current weight after PCT of his 4th (and first real dosed) cycle: 210.


His 3x 250 mg sustanon cycles just gave him 20 lbs of bloating, that he lost after pct. his first lasting gains came from a 600mg test cycle.

4 cycles and he barely benches 2 plates, doing something similar to what you advice.

Oh, and after the second cycle he developpped erectile dysfunction. so side effects are still there.

Useless.

No disrespect, but there must be something else he's doing wrong if he can't gain on what's he's taken. It's possible to lean out on test and gain.... I know many who benefited from it compared to the one you know you who didn't. Everyone is different, I agree, but I still stand by the fact that if you can't make gains on 250mg test per week, you're doing something wrong. A person must be relying too much on the gear and not on their training and diet.

[rbg]

Go back even further and some guys used to down their Dbol pills with protein shakes mixed with whiskey..

My, have we gotten smarter....

horses for courses as the saying goes...........I'd rather tell a newb to start low. Who I'm aiming at are those determined youngsters who have already made their mind up to use, and have very little training and jump onto gear straight away.

I read all the time on forums about young guys who've only done a cycle or two, and are already impotent, or infertile. Or complaining because they 'only' gained 20lbs on their first cycle...wtf...these people have no idea of the strain on their heart that's caused by increasing their body weight 10% in just 10 weeks. Taking AAS isn't just about size, but gaining so while reducing the risks as much as poss.

I agree with alot of what you are all saying here, I see your logic if for a 30/40 year old starting first cycle...but not a 21 year old....and I know it's wrong to start that young, but they do. A person who started at 21 on 500mg, and 400 mg deca....they're likely to end up taking grams of the stuff 5 years later.

High doses first off to me seems like they're relying too much on the gear alone to realise their goals.

This is my opinion, this is a free thinking forum. I'm still learning after 15 years, but I could still get it up, and father kids ten years later......that's all I'm saying.

[dec11]

horses for courses as the saying goes...........I'd rather tell a newb to start low. Who I'm aiming at are those determined youngsters who have already made their mind up to use, and have very little training and jump onto gear straight away.

I read all the time on forums about young guys who've only done a cycle or two, and are already impotent, or infertile. Or complaining because they 'only' gained 20lbs on their first cycle...wtf...these people have no idea of the strain on their heart that's caused by increasing their body weight 10% in just 10 weeks. Taking AAS isn't just about size, but gaining so while reducing the risks as much as poss.

I agree with alot of what you are all saying here, I see your logic if for a 30/40 year old starting first cycle...but not a 21 year old....and I know it's wrong to start that young, but they do. A person who started at 21 on 500mg, and 400 mg deca....they're likely to end up taking grams of the stuff 5 years later.

High doses first off to me seems like they're relying too much on the gear alone to realise their goals.

This is my opinion, this is a free thinking forum. I'm still learning after 15 years, but I could still get it up, and father kids ten years later......that's all I'm saying.

by recommending oral only cycles of adrol? not suitable advice in my book

[rbg]

by recommending oral only cycles of adrol? not suitable advice in my book

I certainly wouldn't recommend taking adrol with something else on the other hand...but that's me. To me adrol is only good for the transition to injectables, it's too strong. I agree to disagree. I appreciate the feedback here though.

[rbg]

I just want to add for clarification, that I'm not suggesting a person continue to remain on a low dose of 250mg test cyp per week, cycle after cycle.

This is not what I'm getting at at all, but just to start on a low dose. 4 cycles on less that 300mg per week each time isn't ideal at all....but gradual increases with each cycle is what I'm advocating. Try low to begin with first cycle. When the gains stop, then increase the dose.

I've known too many guys who started on high doses, and then continue to increase that dose until they end up taking horrendous amounts of it. I know people who have diabetic glaucoma as a result of the all the gear they take - they're huge but blind as a bat!!!

My point is this..if a person is serious about training, and plans to do it for most of their adult life...why is their such a rush to start on so high a dose, and even stacking first off....? I feel there is a culture among the young BB that there is too much of a reliance on the gear alone to reach their goal. To me it seems they want it all too quick at times.

[rbg]

Starting on a low dose of 200mgs per week isnt going to do much IMHO, there are studies what show you need at least 300mgs per week to increase muscle tissue.

Marcus I agree with you. Such a low dose isn't going to do much in comparison to 500mg plus, but it's a safe start in my book. There's so much else that has to be considered. With higher doses, comes cholesterol, and blood pressure probs. The reason why we were told to start orals first was because it prepared us for all these changes with the goal to make the final transition onto injectables...with all the progress made over the years, I still wouldn't change the way I started out. Yeah it was hard work, could have been a lot easier!

[marcus300]

Marcus I agree with you. Such a low dose isn't going to do much in comparison to 500mg plus, but it's a safe start in my book. There's so much else that has to be considered. With higher doses, comes cholesterol, and blood pressure probs. The reason why we were told to start orals first was because it prepared us for all these changes with the goal to make the final transition onto injectables...with all the progress made over the years, I still wouldn't change the way I started out. Yeah it was hard work, could have been a lot easier!

I dont agree with your methods because things have moved on alot from the old days of cycling. The things with low dose test is that your shutting down your system for no results so infact your causing yourself more harm than good, kind of backwards thinking IMHO.

[rbg]

this is where the slingshot theory can come into play?

10 weeks on and then a deload as you come off to give room for CNS adaptations to take place before going back on to allow the tendons to develop

how is CNS adaptation relevant is it not more specifically relevant to strength as strength is a result of increased CNS synchronization with the muscle therefore allowing you to lift more with the same muscle fibers, how does this fare with hypertrophy specific training?

Excerpt taken from page 184 of Anabolic Steroids in Sports and Excercise by Charles Yesalis:

Another group of case reports involves tendon ruptures (Bach, Warran, & Wickiewicz, 1987 David et al, 1995; Freeman & Rooker, 1995; Herrick & Herrick, 1987; Hill, Suker, Sachs, & Brigham, 1983; Kramhoft & Solgaard, 1986; Low & Tavares, 1995; Visuri & Lindholm, 1994) which so far cannot be distinguished from the risks ordinarily faced by strength athletes with extraordinary muscle hypertrophy, even those who don't use anabolic steroids. The suggestion of an association comes primarily from animal studies. Methandienone injected into excercised mice produced collagen abnormalities (Michna, 1987), this has been interpreted as a change that might increase the risk of tendon rupture. Subsequent studies in rats also indicate steroid induced alterations in tendon elasticity, which might explain an increased risk of tendon failure (Miles et al, 1992 Wood, Cooke, & Goodship, 1988)

Couple this with the increased strength of the muscle provided by the use of AAS, explains the high risk of tendon failure in new steroid users as the muscular strength increases significantly, but the use of steroids can induce reduced tendon elasticity. Imagine a new bodybuilder feeling the effects of increased muscular strength brought on by the use of AAS, but with tendons that have not developed at the same rate as the muscle, and with reduced elasticity.

This is another reason I do not advocate the use of higher doses during the early cycles.

[big_ron]

I dont agree with your methods because things have moved on alot from the old days of cycling. The things with low dose test is that your shutting down your system for no results so infact your causing yourself more harm than good, kind of backwards thinking IMHO.

agreed, and you said if your shut down then your shut down, you worry about things like tendons and the like so doing 200mg may help with that, but by the time your satisfied after all the years of building up to higher doses then your going to take alot longer your your natural test to come back compared to less cycles and a higher dose, whats more important? your tendons or hormones?
when its more likely training stupidly that you would injure them and not 100% certain where as you messing around your hormones for a longer period is.

[Big]

Excerpt taken from page 184 of Anabolic Steroids in Sports and Excercise by Charles Yesalis:

Another group of case reports involves tendon ruptures (Bach, Warran, & Wickiewicz, 1987 David et al, 1995; Freeman & Rooker, 1995; Herrick & Herrick, 1987; Hill, Suker, Sachs, & Brigham, 1983; Kramhoft & Solgaard, 1986; Low & Tavares, 1995; Visuri & Lindholm, 1994) which so far cannot be distinguished from the risks ordinarily faced by strength athletes with extraordinary muscle hypertrophy, even those who don't use anabolic steroids. The suggestion of an association comes primarily from animal studies. Methandienone injected into excercised mice produced collagen abnormalities (Michna, 1987), this has been interpreted as a change that might increase the risk of tendon rupture. Subsequent studies in rats also indicate steroid induced alterations in tendon elasticity, which might explain an increased risk of tendon failure (Miles et al, 1992 Wood, Cooke, & Goodship, 1988)

Couple this with the increased strength of the muscle provided by the use of AAS, explains the high risk of tendon failure in new steroid users as the muscular strength increases significantly, but the use of steroids can induce reduced tendon elasticity. Imagine a new bodybuilder feeling the effects of increased muscular strength brought on by the use of AAS, but with the tendons have not only developed at the same rate as the muscle, but with reduced elasticity.

This is another reason I do not advocate the use of higher doses during the early cycles.

so when rats are given steroids they are at a higher risk for tendon rupture, therefore humans should start cycles around 200mg/week? seems like a bit of a leap to me.
you may notice that all of the senior members of this site recommend people train naturally for years to reach or at least approach their genetic potential before advising steroid usage. I would think for someone to weight train properly for at least a year then cycle even at 500mg/week would be safer than a new guy cycling at 200mg/week.
I have seen some guys make great gains at 300mg/week while others may need considerably more, all other factors being the same. everyone is different, but the study posted above hardly applies to the topic at hand, imo.

[rbg]

I dont agree with your methods because things have moved on alot from the old days of cycling. The things with low dose test is that your shutting down your system for no results so infact your causing yourself more harm than good, kind of backwards thinking IMHO.

That's what I fear is part of the problem, that all the emphasis is placed on the effects on the HPTA, but there seems to be little information out there now about the other considerable stresses on the body when starting AAS.

One of my answers to some feedback regarding the use of AAS and steroid induced reduced tendon elasticity. This is one of the reasons I was told that people must start low, as too high a dose of gear in the beginning will not only affect the tendon elasticity, but couple it with a rapidly increasing muscle strength leaves the new user vulnerable to tendon failure and rupture, let alone, the other sides I mentioned, such as BP, and Cholesterol, Acne, mental/mood changes to the new user who's unfamiliar with their effects.

Maybe seen as old fashioned and backward, but there was a reason for it.

[marcus300]

That's what I fear is part of the problem, that all the emphasis is placed on the effects on the HPTA, but there seems to be little information out there now about the other considerable stresses on the body when starting AAS.

One of my answers to some feedback regarding the use of AAS and steroid induced reduced tendon elasticity. This is one of the reasons I was told that people must start low, as too high a dose of gear in the beginning will not only affect the tendon elasticity, but couple it with a rapidly increasing muscle strength leaves the new user vulnerable to tendon failure and rupture, let alone, the other sides I mentioned, such as BP, and Cholesterol, Acne, mental/mood changes to the new user who's unfamiliar with their effects.

Maybe seen as old fashioned and backward, but there was a reason for it.

You are not thinking correctly with this, like BIG as stated you need a base to work from, a foundation to build upon before using steroids, this takes years, the base is for your body to get use to training and to strengthen your tendons and connective tissues.

Using low dose test will cause you more problems than good, the low does wont do a thing for mucle building and your shutting down a system for no reason what so ever.

[G4R]

This thread and its 'pro low dosage' message reminds me of this one:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=436308

I know this thread is not exactly like the one mentioned, but low dosages can be too low, as pointed out by Big:

the average adult male produces the equivalent of approximately 7mg per day of testosterone, which would be 91mg every 13 days. when you factor in that 75mg of Testosterone Cypionate is not pure test, but rather part of the 75mg will be ester, you are suppressing your natural test production to use a much lower level than you should have naturally. even if placed on TRT through a doc that is a rather modest dose, I would consider a second opinion.

Again, I know its not exactly the same thing, but if supporting the low dosage theory, then where do you draw the line on whats too low?

[rbg]

It could simply be a case of what a person perceives to be a good dose. If alot of people here started on 500mg of test cyp, then they may well be inclined to argue that it is the correct starting dose, and that they wouldn't have achieved the gains they did on a lower dose, obviously.

But then, this is where I differ, I am one of those guys, along with many other I knew/Know, who did start on those low doses, and made tremendous gains, and kept them.

This is why I won't tell any of you you're wrong, because it's whatever worked for you, is going to be deemed as correct.

You hit the nail on the head Big, everyone is different. It's hard to say what is the 'right' dose, but if the majority of users on the forum believe that 500mg per week of test cyp worked for them just fine, then I must concede that this may prove to be a good start.

I hear you when you say people need to prepare for years before starting AAS..but we all know the reality is that many do not.

I'm just one guy of a number that I know who successfully used the low dose method. A minute number compared to the overall number who seem to believe a higher dose is best as an average.

Fair enough guys. Live and learn. Thanks. Tho I still wouldn't change how I started...lmao!

[rbg]

This thread and its 'pro low dosage' message reminds me of this one:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=436308

I know this thread is not exactly like the one mentioned, but low dosages can be too low, as pointed out by Big:


Again, I know its not exactly the same thing, but if supporting the low dosage theory, then where do you draw the line on whats too low?

Good question! I think it would be fair to say too low is when it's equal to the average natural production for the month. It would be pointless to do. I think that for every 100mg of test cyp that's injected, 79mg is the test hormone. So a single week 250mg injection will provide 197mg of test hormone....just under the average natural production for the month in one injection.

On top of that, having a half life of 7-8 days, test cyp injection of 250mg per week will accumulate to be somewhere between 295mg and 344mg of hormone after the second week into the third week, and from then on for the duration of the cycle. That's over 3x the natural two week accumulation of 7mg per day after two weeks of injecting.

This could provide a considerable testosterone boost over the natural level. This is why I believe it possible for many to achieve good gains on a low dose 250mg shot per week

I made very good gains on 250mg per week....that's just me.

[rbg]

agreed, and you said if your shut down then your shut down, you worry about things like tendons and the like so doing 200mg may help with that, but by the time your satisfied after all the years of building up to higher doses then your going to take alot longer your your natural test to come back compared to less cycles and a higher dose, whats more important? your tendons or hormones?
when its more likely training stupidly that you would injure them and not 100% certain where as you messing around your hormones for a longer period is.

That's a question of goal. It's hard enough to stop 19 year olds from starting AAS......most don't have a clue they'll most likely have primary hypogonadism by the time they're in their 30's. But if a person is determined to take it, and accepts that they will be shutting down their natty test production anyhow, why add other unnecessary risk to the equation as a result of starting on a higher dose than needed to make a gain?

[PK-V]

That's a question of goal. It's hard enough to stop 19 year olds from starting AAS......most don't have a clue they'll most likely have primary hypogonadism by the time they're in their 30's. But if a person is determined to take it, and accepts that they will be shutting down their natty test production anyhow, why add other unnecessary risk to the equation as a result of starting on a higher dose than needed to make a gain?

I - Individual differences: states simply that everyone is different.

You can not isolate such a limited factor such as anabolic and put a number on it, no one person is the same, case closed.