Protein intake while on steroids

[GearHeaded]

Ok guys, being I've repeated this numerous times on the forums and been asked about it lots of times via PM, I'll post up a thread that covers it.

IF YOUR ENHANCED AND ON A CYCLE OF STEROIDS YOU DO NOT NEED NEAR AS MUCH PROTEIN AS YOU WOULD IF YOUR NATTY.

Nitrogen retention, protein synthesis, and nutrient partitioning are greatly increased while on cycle. You become way way more efficient at utilizing protein

"ok well so what, shouldn't I still eat as much protein as I can to build muscle?" .. umm, NO !

it does not work that way. if you want to grow and gain muscle you need to be in a calorie surplus and be efficient with the calories you take in (meaning not wasting energy).. all your energy and efforts need to go towards muscle building. well, too much protein = wasted energy expenditure. protein is the only food we intake that is highly thermogenic, meaning it requires a bunch of energy (i.e., calories) to process. for every 100 calories of protein you take in, 30 calories are burned to metabolize that.

that is actually such a high thermogenic effect that I design diets for clients that are wanting to lose weight and use protein intake, all by itself, to put them in a further calorie deficit (without having to reduce their calories).

SO , if your running a cycle and you want to grow and get as big as possible, then do NOT over do the protein. the AAS is already making you way more efficient at using protein for muscle building. let that advantage guide you and get in just enough protein to provide the raw material (essential amino acids) to turn on protein synthesis and 'manufacture' new tissue.


Now if your going from being off cycle and natty and your protein requirements are much higher, to going on a cycle of steroids and bulking and needing to increase calories but lower protein,, what do you do? seems counter productive right? if your needing to bulk you need to up your protein right? no,
UP YOUR CARBS BIG TIME!!

When your on cycle and trying to grow Carbs need to be your most abundant macro nutrient. Carbs are "Anabolic" as hell for you (though its 'indirect' anabolism) . how are Carbs anabolic?

well, again your on steroids and your going to be way better at nutrient partitioning. this means your going to be able to drive way more carbs/glucose into muscle cells to be stored as glycogen.
this process in and of itself will increase the size of your muscles. as CarboHYDRATES, yes Hydrate, will drive more water intercellularly (muscle is made up of 79% water.. more water in the cell means more muscle).. now heres the anabolic part. Amino Acids (the building blocks of muscle) are brought into muscle cells BY catching a ride with the insulin and glucose that gets pushed into muscle cells.
Carbs/glucose, are bringing nutrients and 'protein' into the muscle cells to help repair and build muscle.

So CARBS are very essential for building muscle. The more Carbs you can take in and drive into muscle cells the more you'll utilize the protein you take in and build muscle. Carbs become your main macro nutrient when on cycle.

Now not only are Carbs your main macro source to help build muscle while on cycle. they are also your fuel source to drive and power the whole machine to begin with.. your on cycle, your training like a mad man with a ton of intensity and volume , fuel that monster! CARBS are your fuel.

how is "carbs as your fuel source'' related to your protein intake.. well remember what I said about how protein requires a ton of energy to process. Well you know how much of an energy waste it is and how inefficient and expensive it is to use protein for energy? hell protein takes a ton of energy to process to begin, we go from that to the process known as Gluconeogenisis, in which the liver takes protein and breaks it down and converts it into glucose to be used as energy... thats an expensive process!! If your carbs are too low, then yes your body will use protein as fuel by converting it into glucose. what a damn WASTE !! the solution is to just keep pounding the Carbs. that way you'll always have the glucose present for fuel so your body doesn't have to do this and waste both protein and energy.

again, we are wanting to grow and build muscle and save all our energy for this process and be in a calorie surplus . NOT wasting energy is very important.

what about Fat, can't I use that for energy too? well keep this in mind, your body only utilizes a very small amount of dietary fat for energy, the majority of fat is stored as body fat. in fact if you were starving to death and on the verge of passing out and you finally have a meal of only fat your body is going to take that meal and 'store it' as body fat FIRST and then use it as fuel , lol.

so why would we want to use fat for energy . we wouldn't in this situation . WE NEED TO JUST POUND THE CARBOHYDRATES.

a lot of the points I make above can be seen in anecdotal evidence. When Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler were on cycle they would consume over 1000 grams of CARBS (yes they were taking insulin too).

So its Carbs that are the main macro for an enhanced bodybuilder, contrary to popular belief that bodybuilders mainly eat protein.


any questions , ask away brothers !!

[GuanacoJuicer]

Great post. I think Dr. Atkins and his fad diet of low to no carbs really did a lot of damage to the reputation of carbohydrates. I personally fell into that trap not that long ago and avoided carbs like the plague. My body finally started to change the way I wanted once I started fueling it with LOTS of carbohydrates. Now I'm looking into carb cycling but still need to do some research on it. I've read a lot of articles lately on the benefits of cycling carbs.

[Gallowmere]

Great post. I think Dr. Atkins and his fad diet of low to no carbs really did a lot of damage to the reputation of carbohydrates. I personally fell into that trap not that long ago and avoided carbs like the plague. My body finally started to change the way I wanted once I started fueling it with LOTS of carbohydrates. Now I'm looking into carb cycling but still need to do some research on it. I've read a lot of articles lately on the benefits of cycling carbs.

This is a huge part of the problem: people take dietary setups intended for peeling the extra asses off of sedentary land whales, and apply them to everyone.

It was the same thing with the keto paleo nonsense. Yes, it has some great general principles, even for those who train hard (all whole foods, skipping processed garbage), but we saw how much jacking up carb intake has helped CrossFit athletes. I don’t give a damn if it is all coming from fruits, carrots and sweet potatoes: get the carbs in for recovery and performance.

Obviously, cutting carb intake down is required when shedding fat (gotta take the kcals away somewhere), but ask any bodybuilder just how they feel and perform in the later stages of contest prep. I don’t care how many drugs you’re on; when your energy intake is that low, your work ability is going to suffer.

[tarmyg]

Here is some added information I found useful to this thread!

How much protein can the body use in a single meal for muscle-building? Implications for daily protein distribution
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-018-0215-1

[RaginCajun]

how is one to get into more nitrogen retention without cycling? i think this is the main reason for all of my creaky and poppy joints. haven't been on cycle in a while, but noticed i did not pop and creek so much when on cycle.

thoughts?

[GearHeaded]

how is one to get into more nitrogen retention without cycling? i think this is the main reason for all of my creaky and poppy joints. haven't been on cycle in a while, but noticed i did not pop and creek so much when on cycle.

thoughts?

I'm not sure there is any 'direct' correlation between positive nitrogen balance and easing joint pain. If your joints felt better when on cycle it was more then likely because of elevated water retention (yes we can hold water in the joints and this makes them feel better and not so 'creaky'), elevated estrogen, and taking AAS that help promote synovial fluid in joints and collagen synthesis.

nitrogen retention , as far as I know, is only going to promote protein synthesis in soft tissue like muscle. Not sure it would have an effect on joints (but I've never looked into it).

AS for increasing nitrogen retention naturally. really the only way we have control of this is to keep our blood filled up with amino acids. this means eating dietary protein every couple of hours, and or supplementing with essential amino acids. this results in a positive nitrogen balance

[RaginCajun]

I'm not sure there is any 'direct' correlation between positive nitrogen balance and easing joint pain. If your joints felt better when on cycle it was more then likely because of elevated water retention (yes we can hold water in the joints and this makes them feel better and not so 'creaky'), elevated estrogen, and taking AAS that help promote synovial fluid in joints and collagen synthesis.

nitrogen retention , as far as I know, is only going to promote protein synthesis in soft tissue like muscle. Not sure it would have an effect on joints (but I've never looked into it).

AS for increasing nitrogen retention naturally. really the only way we have control of this is to keep our blood filled up with amino acids. this means eating dietary protein every couple of hours, and or supplementing with essential amino acids. this results in a positive nitrogen balance

Thanks for the reply. Guess I need to eat more protein and find some AAS!

[charger69]

Thanks for the reply. Guess I need to eat more protein and find some AAS!

Your just getting old.


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[Northernpumps]

Would this apply while just on test, for example a TRT patient or someone cruising between cycles or simply just on test in between other compounds ?

[tharris50]

I like and follow this concept for a few reasons. As I get older (50) I am finding it more difficult to digest so much protein and at times just have 100grams a day for several days in a row. I feel better then go back a cple days going a bit higher then coming right back down. Was finding myself getting a lil too sluggish w all that protein all the time

[Gallowmere]

I like and follow this concept for a few reasons. As I get older (50) I am finding it more difficult to digest so much protein and at times just have 100grams a day for several days in a row. I feel better then go back a cple days going a bit higher then coming right back down. Was finding myself getting a lil too sluggish w all that protein all the time

This is problematic on a different level. It’s been repeatedly shown that as people age, their response to protein feedings actually decrease. By the time one is in their 70s, it takes roughly double the protein to elicit the same MPS response as a younger individual.

If your experience is a common one, it’s really no wonder that sarcopenia is so prevalent, when you pair it with the state of the literature.

[GearHeaded]

It’s been repeatedly shown that as people age, their response to protein feedings actually decrease. By the time one is in their 70s, it takes roughly double the protein to elicit the same MPS response as a younger individual.
.

\

this is true. older people have a harder time assimilating protein and synthesizing protein, meaning they have to eat more then they used to when they were younger in order to get the same benefit.
however. this is not all that bad in that normal aging adults carry far less muscle tissue then they used to, and are not building new tissue at a rate that people do when younger.

but perhaps supplementing with fast assimilating proteins like whey isolate may be beneficial for older adults

[GearHeaded]

Would this apply while just on test, for example a TRT patient or someone cruising between cycles or simply just on test in between other compounds ?

only to a much smaller degree and scale. being on TRT is not going to put you into supra-physiological levels and have all those things like protein turnover etc. that get ramped up and turned on by high dosages.

[tharris50]

This is problematic on a different level. It’s been repeatedly shown that as people age, their response to protein feedings actually decrease. By the time one is in their 70s, it takes roughly double the protein to elicit the same MPS response as a younger individual.

If your experience is a common one, it’s really no wonder that sarcopenia is so prevalent, when you pair it with the state of the literature.

I am not finding that I am losing much muscle mass, I just feel better as o get older not eating so much protein all the time. I still have the same ferocious appetite for it but it doesn't treat me as well as it used to..in my twenties I cld easily eat 3lb of red meat, 1 lb of fish and 2lbs of chicken everyday along w other things, lol..not alot to some but now, I find I dont need so much

[GearHeaded]

if your holding onto muscle mass just fine, and your digestion is much better,, I'd say thats a win

but your natty buddies probably wouldn't be able to do that

[kelkel]

\this is true. older people have a harder time assimilating protein and synthesizing protein

Probably why I'm relentlessly crop dusting where ever I go.....

[MuscleScience]

It seems as though the .8-1.0gr/lb intake maybe a bit low for weight lifters.

A systematic review, meta-analysis and meta-regression of the effect of protein supplementation on resistance training-induced gains in muscle mass and strength in healthy adults | British Journal of Sports Medicine

[tharris50]

Probably why I'm relentlessly crop dusting where ever I go.....

Lmao, that's classic!

[Gallowmere]

\

this is true. older people have a harder time assimilating protein and synthesizing protein, meaning they have to eat more then they used to when they were younger in order to get the same benefit.
however. this is not all that bad in that normal aging adults carry far less muscle tissue then they used to, and are not building new tissue at a rate that people do when younger.

but perhaps supplementing with fast assimilating proteins like whey isolate may be beneficial for older adults

I’m hoping such will be the case. My girlfriends parents (actually grandparents who adopted her when her mother died) are in their 80s, and both are suffering the typical weakness issues, muscle wasting, etc. After analyzing both of their diets, it came as small wonder. She finally managed to talk them both into protein supplementation, so I am hoping that it will at least slow the process.

That said, they’re both hardheaded and cantankerous as fuck, so I’ll be interested to see if they’ll even stick with it long enough for there to be any kind of benefit.

[tarmyg]

REF: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PNCe...2938314936530/

[Tip of the Day - PROTEIN NEEDS & FAT STORAGE]

There's been a lot of chatter recently about how much protein humans can absorb in a meal, benefit from in a day, eat without dying, etc. As well as some seeming confusion on how the human body actually stores excess calories.

So, my aim today is to clear up some of this confusion, and hopefully help you better help your own clients and patients.

Let's start with the protein needs and usage.

++

First, there isn't one known limit of protein intake at a meal whereby extra protein becomes "wasted", "useless" or "stored as fat".

Fact is, the best data we have on protein intake are long-term, chronic-intake studies that determine hard outcomes (e.g. actual muscle gained, fat lost, or health outcomes).

Much of this discussion around a set amount of protein at a given meal is based on acute, short-term studies looking at soft end points (e.g. measures of protein synthesis, protein breakdown, or nitrogen balance).

These are important studies, but acute outcomes don't always translate to chronic outcomes. So, these pathway studies and their ilk must be put in context with what we see in longer-term chronic studies.

And when looking at the combined data, here is what see.

Recently, Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld published a paper reviewing the evidence of protein intake on a per-meal basis as it relates to increasing muscle mass. What they found was the evidence currently states that to maximize musular growth in humans requires about 0.4-0.55g of protein per kg of bodyweight per meal. Assuming about 4 meals per day. Thus providing 1.6-2.2g/kg of total protein intake daily.

(Here's the paper for those interested: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-018-0215-1)

Of course, this paper was strictly about muscle gain. When it comes to fat loss, protein intake often needs to be even higher (particularly in advanced individuals to maximally retain lean mass). Therefore, per-meal intake would have to be higher, as simply spreading out intake over more meals has it's own tradeoffs.

Examine.com recently had a fantastic write-up looking at protein needs in varying situations for varying folks. Indeed, they show protein needs for active individuals looking to lose body fat at 2.2-3.3g/kg! These intakes would be nearly impossible to achieve with these theoretical 20, 30 or 40g per meal limits.

(To put this into perspective, as an 87kg individual I would need up to 287g of protein daily to maximize lean mass retention while losing body fat. If even 40g was my per-meal limit, this would require me to eat 7 meals per day [which sounds incredibly impractical].)

(Here's Examine's post: https://examine.com/nutrition/how-mu...ein-do-i-need/)

Yet, let's look at the protein needs of the "average" American adults who are sedentary and looking to lose body fat (according to the literature and Examine post, they need 1.2-1.5g/kg of protein per day).

The average American adult female is just under 170lbs, or 77kg.

The average American adult male is about 196lbs, or 89kg.

This would put their protein needs at 92-116g daily for the woman, and 107-134g daily for the man.

If you divide this by 4 daily meals, that would be 23-29g per meal for the woman, and 27-34g per meal for the man.

In that regard, the commonly cited 30g per meal would actually be a good target for a good chunk of the adult American population.

However, to claim it is some "max" where the rest will be "wasted" is where it truly misses the mark. Beyond also lacking context and not being appropriate for a wider range of individuals.

++

To wrap this up I quickly wanted to point a few items on how humans store excess calories.

The idea that excess protein will be converted into fat (mostly) misrepresents what really happens in caloric excess. It can happen under extreme circumstances, but the body would rather not store protein as fat if it has other options (because it is incredibly inefficient). And it almost always had other options.

When in caloric excess the body typically prefers to store excess calories from dietary fat, because it is the most efficient. There's only about a 3% or so caloric loss to do so.

The next option would be carbs, but this also only happens to any significant degree when fat intake is incredibly low (<10% of calories) and/or carb intake is inordinately high (e.g. >700g of carbs daily). This is called de novo lipogenesis, and it typically only makes up a small portion of human fat storage (like 1-2% or so). This is mainly because it is far less efficient to do so, with a 20-30% caloric loss when converting carbs to fats.

When in caloric excess the body much prefers to simply store the excess calories by storing more dietary fat, and oxidizing the dietary carbs and protein.

(Interestingly, having a higher intake of protein does make it harder for the body to store excess calories as fat - https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/art…...550-2783-11-19)

[charger69]

REF: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PNCe...2938314936530/

[Tip of the Day - PROTEIN NEEDS & FAT STORAGE]

There's been a lot of chatter recently about how much protein humans can absorb in a meal, benefit from in a day, eat without dying, etc. As well as some seeming confusion on how the human body actually stores excess calories.

So, my aim today is to clear up some of this confusion, and hopefully help you better help your own clients and patients.

Let's start with the protein needs and usage.

++

First, there isn't one known limit of protein intake at a meal whereby extra protein becomes "wasted", "useless" or "stored as fat".

Fact is, the best data we have on protein intake are long-term, chronic-intake studies that determine hard outcomes (e.g. actual muscle gained, fat lost, or health outcomes).

Much of this discussion around a set amount of protein at a given meal is based on acute, short-term studies looking at soft end points (e.g. measures of protein synthesis, protein breakdown, or nitrogen balance).

These are important studies, but acute outcomes don't always translate to chronic outcomes. So, these pathway studies and their ilk must be put in context with what we see in longer-term chronic studies.

And when looking at the combined data, here is what see.

Recently, Alan Aragon and Brad Schoenfeld published a paper reviewing the evidence of protein intake on a per-meal basis as it relates to increasing muscle mass. What they found was the evidence currently states that to maximize musular growth in humans requires about 0.4-0.55g of protein per kg of bodyweight per meal. Assuming about 4 meals per day. Thus providing 1.6-2.2g/kg of total protein intake daily.

(Here's the paper for those interested: https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-018-0215-1)

Of course, this paper was strictly about muscle gain. When it comes to fat loss, protein intake often needs to be even higher (particularly in advanced individuals to maximally retain lean mass). Therefore, per-meal intake would have to be higher, as simply spreading out intake over more meals has it's own tradeoffs.

Examine.com recently had a fantastic write-up looking at protein needs in varying situations for varying folks. Indeed, they show protein needs for active individuals looking to lose body fat at 2.2-3.3g/kg! These intakes would be nearly impossible to achieve with these theoretical 20, 30 or 40g per meal limits.

(To put this into perspective, as an 87kg individual I would need up to 287g of protein daily to maximize lean mass retention while losing body fat. If even 40g was my per-meal limit, this would require me to eat 7 meals per day [which sounds incredibly impractical].)

(Here's Examine's post: https://examine.com/nutrition/how-mu...ein-do-i-need/)

Yet, let's look at the protein needs of the "average" American adults who are sedentary and looking to lose body fat (according to the literature and Examine post, they need 1.2-1.5g/kg of protein per day).

The average American adult female is just under 170lbs, or 77kg.

The average American adult male is about 196lbs, or 89kg.

This would put their protein needs at 92-116g daily for the woman, and 107-134g daily for the man.

If you divide this by 4 daily meals, that would be 23-29g per meal for the woman, and 27-34g per meal for the man.

In that regard, the commonly cited 30g per meal would actually be a good target for a good chunk of the adult American population.

However, to claim it is some "max" where the rest will be "wasted" is where it truly misses the mark. Beyond also lacking context and not being appropriate for a wider range of individuals.

++

To wrap this up I quickly wanted to point a few items on how humans store excess calories.

The idea that excess protein will be converted into fat (mostly) misrepresents what really happens in caloric excess. It can happen under extreme circumstances, but the body would rather not store protein as fat if it has other options (because it is incredibly inefficient). And it almost always had other options.

When in caloric excess the body typically prefers to store excess calories from dietary fat, because it is the most efficient. There's only about a 3% or so caloric loss to do so.

The next option would be carbs, but this also only happens to any significant degree when fat intake is incredibly low (<10% of calories) and/or carb intake is inordinately high (e.g. >700g of carbs daily). This is called de novo lipogenesis, and it typically only makes up a small portion of human fat storage (like 1-2% or so). This is mainly because it is far less efficient to do so, with a 20-30% caloric loss when converting carbs to fats.

When in caloric excess the body much prefers to simply store the excess calories by storing more dietary fat, and oxidizing the dietary carbs and protein.

(Interestingly, having a higher intake of protein does make it harder for the body to store excess calories as fat - https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/artâ...550-2783-11-19)

Your just a walking encyclopedia aren’t you??
Great post Tarmyg. I always love the references.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GearHeaded]

Excellent points Tarmyg!! Got some Anecdotal evidence myself as well to back up much of what you said.

[kelkel]

Tarmyg gave me a headache......

[JuliusPleaser]

There is a Dr. named Shawn Baker, who is a record holder in indoor rowing, he advises the carnivore diet, which is literally nothing but meat ( not veggies) and was watching info on this recently. Basically he eats 2-3lbs of ribeye steak a day; of course his diet is high-fat, and there's enough protein to fuel gluconegenisis and keeps his energy high. His research is showing that we can eat more protein than we think and that all this carb stuff, even veggies, are not necessary and sometimes detrimental. I'm not going to argue for or against this diet, because I do believe we are ominvores due to epigientic adaptions, but one thing is certain, we didn't eat plants for 3 million years; and in the last 10k years we have been consuming grains and whatever. But I even read a book called the 10K year explosion, where the authors argue that the fact we started farming and eating grains, milking cows etc, created Asians and Europeans out of the African races over time, due to what we ATE, rather than SOLELY environment, which I found interesting as mostly Europeans and Middle Eastern people's can consume milk whereas the rest of the world is lactose intolerant. SO I am a big believer that certain racial/ethnic groups can eat specific diets with different macros than other groups. Okinawans can eat higher carb, where as Inuits eat higher fat; if we were to switch diets in the groups, it would probably have horrible effects on them....but anyway, I digress lol

I'm revisiting this topic about protein intake for two reasons:

I myself am now cutting, which I have combined intermittent fasting 16/8 ratio, with an IIFYM approach, however, eating mostly quality foods with the occasional splurges like I did last night. Lately, I am finding myself more sore than usual. I am taking anavar 50mg, TRT dose of test cyp at 150mg and GH at 3iu per day. My cals were 2400 (maintenance is 3000).

So after reviewing all this new info form Baker, I came here to discuss the logic that if protein is the only thing that can repair muscle tissue, and there are not essential carbs (not even veggies) then why don't we just consume that. Obviously, the argument against a carnivore diet for bodybuilding is that muscles would lose the full look and workout intensity will drop, but Baker says that after an adaption period, and being that protein is SUPER higher on this diet (unlike real keto) performance does not suffer, but of course, bodybuilding is different than other sports and looks matter, so I'm not sure glucoeneogensis is ENOUGH for a body builder to maintain MAXIMUM muscle size. But it is interesting that most bbers do cut with CKD or other methods before a show, only to carb up last minute to get that fuller size. One of my friends who did a bbing show was on a CKD diet where he was eating 6 days zero carbs and one day refeed; got leaner, got stronger, all while dieting down for a show...

I myself am not a "bodybuilder" although I train like one, however, I don't care if I'm not puffed up like a balloon lol, since my main goal right now is to shed fat. As I read in Gear's first post, he uses the TEF of protein to help his clients lose fat. It seems to me, the norm is, when bulking: up the carbs, when cutting: drop the carbs.

However, people like Layne Nortan and others will advocate IIFYM or ANY kind of diet which helps you adhere to a caloric deficit in which you retain as much muscle and lose the most fat. So whether high carb or low carb, studies have now shown there is virtually none which are advantageous over the other in the pursuit of fat loss because what matters most is ADHERENCE to a caloric deficit. But what is the ONE thing that must be met? BOTH diets MUST Have high protein to be most efficient. So in other words, so long as protein is adequate, the ratio of carbs vs fats DON'T MATTER and is up to the person's preference.

So to me it logically follows as I cut down my calories, protein needs to go UP and the other macros, namely carbs, needs to go down. I may try this carnivore diet, but like the other diets I've tried (raw vegan) it would be expensive and also not sustainable for life. I like to take my wife and kid out to eat a shitty dinner once a week at least lol.

But even with protein, the confusion I get is some BBers claim all we need is 1g of protein per LBM, others say 2... it seems no one knows for sure and we have to experiment. But Baker's research is interesting. Also, take Phil Heath who eats 400 grams of protein a day, which is clearly more than 1g of protein. In fact, all the pros, even Sarcev, Dorian, woudl all promote 1.5-2 grams or more. It was Menzer who I remember reading that all we need is 1g per lbm and that carbs should be 60% of our macros, since muscle is only 30% tissue and 70% water; thus the logic being that we should maximize muscle size with it being hydrated, as Gear posted in his first post.

Another reason why I find my self reviewing this concept is that I find myself more sore than usual lately, even though I have switched from heavy lifting, to more volume training (I actually go back and forth doing both when I feel the need to change. I either do HIT (dorian style) or Volume (arnold style) as I feel it is best to switch it up) I haven't been THIS sore in a while. Could simply be the lower cals but I "feel" its time to up protein even more.

To conclude this long ass post, I think basically if I want to drop passed what I think is 13-15% BF (basically like my avatar) I'm going to have to drop carbs to MAX 100-150 a day, maybe less. Performance will go down but I will just up the volume to combat that...

But what do you all think about what I'm saying... Maybe on a BULK we can use less protein and more carbs because a surplus will help, but on a cut, I think we need MORE protein and less other things...

[GearHeaded]

the thing about the carnivore diet , $ $ $ . you can't feed the world with steak. we need grains and carbs. plus shelf life.

Also , even physiologically speaking. Using protein for gluconeogenisis and as a form of energy is metabolically taxing and demanding on the body. so not only is it very inefficient in regards to physiology, its also personally inefficient monetarily.

eg.. lets say you buy a 12 oz top sirloin . thats your meal 3 times per day. that costs you $36 . you body is going to take a percentage of that expensive meal and convert it into sugar to be used as energy. that is some very pricey sugar/carbs.

your better off eating 2 top sirloin steaks at $24 and then add a 50 cent bowl of rice to each of those meals. now your only spending $25. and your body will use the protein for protein and the rice for energy.
you'll save $4000 a year in cash.. plus your body will be more efficient and require less calories overall for the same 'bang for the buck' being you didn't have to metabolize protein into carbs through gluconeogensis.

imo, the carnivore diet is just another form of the keto crowd mindset on the war on carbs. demonizing one food group. not realizing that Carbs and the ability to mass produce them on a large scale is a miracle that has kept a majority of the world from starving to death and from food spoiling.

Carbs are a VERY efficient source of food and fuel source. they are anti-catabolic. they indirectly build muscle. they are the brains preferred go to fuel source. They are in expensive. they don't spoil or need refrigeration.

can we live just on steak alone. for sure. steak has all that we need and all the vitamins we need to live. however, your performance, muscle building physique, ability to stay hydrated, ability to absorb electrolytes, etc etc. is going to be WAY better if you add Rice to your steak..

Carbs are the number one macro of any pro bodybuilder. Protein and Fats are there, but carbs are what are manipulated to enhance performance and the appearance of the physique.

also Carbs are the ONLY food group that generates strong anabolic hormonal responses from the body. (protein and fats do not cause your body to have much of any hormone response at all)

[JuliusPleaser]

Indeed, I don't go with the "we don't need carbs to survive" argument because there is nothing "natural" or "necessary" to go become a 250lb jacked BBer at 4% bf lol... or be an olympic sprinter or 99% or any the other things we do in today's sporting world. None of these activities are meant for survival at all, so its not even an argument. Maybe some sedentary non-active people should drop all carbs and do keto or whatever.

I also don't argue the whole carbs are either "bad" or "good" because they can be used as a tool. I've learned out with high-carb cutting. The picture above was me last year doing so, but notice I never got REALLY shredded like I wanted; probably because I should have gone lower and lower in carbs or upped the cardio, but in that pic, i was way more 'enhanced' than I am now so I have to take a different approach.

And yes, large civilization is only possible with carbs, at least, any empire or one that had any true presence on the globe, like the Roman empire which used grains and barely etc. In fact, I was reading an article about how the gladiators ate barely to sustain their training. I think all these jacked cavemen and images of huge barbarians are just a product of the 80's artists when Arnold and the action heroes of the 80's came on stage. We also see that comic books did the same thing with super heroes.. I dont think any of our ancestors were jacked cavemen at all; probably the opposite. If anything, they were lean physic types like we see in greek statues but they weren't 300lb vikings, but then again, who knows. lol

But In regards to fat loss, I think it would be easier for myself to lower cals and be more satiated with higher fats. Right now I just got back from Coscto buying full fat ground beef and ground turkey; some steaks, eggs. I was eating all 96% lean versions from ShopRite.

At Costco I got 4+lbs of Round top steak for 17 bux; will last 4 days just that; 16 brown eggs are cheap at Costco as well; I'll be eating whole ones from now on.

I do a steak and rice diet last Sept when I was bulking. I learned it from Stan Efferding who learned it from Flex Wheeler. I had no issues having a cup of rice with every steak meal; in fact, I grew very lean and stronger with it but I wasn't ripped by any means. I was bulking anyway, and I got to 230, but now my goal is different.

I have adjusted my cals to this: 160 carbs, 260 protein, and 70 fats for 2300... before it was 240 carbs, 220 pro and 68 fats, or something for 2400. I have't removed carbs totally because I want to replenish its glycogen PWO then have the rest of the meals high fat... Either way, it won't matter because I Could technically cycle carbs on days i feel like eating them and it wouldn't make a difference so long as I'm in my caloric range, from what I understand.

I was reading from Lyle McDonald how atheletes can actually be in "keto" even at 100-150 carbs. Thing is, I don't think anyone on high protein diets are in any way in keto, since the real keto diet is 90%fat and is used for epilespy and treatments, not body building. I always cringe when I hear Palumbo, who I respect, talk about being keto in high protein, when its not possible. I guess the name just makes it easier to explain.

From what understand, protein and carbs spike insulin and fat does not. There is the whole argument that even a protein shakes alone, even aminos, can have an effect on insulin, and spikes with extra carbs in to "window of opportunity" are unnecessary and doesn't really help TOO much, maybe to some extend but not noticeably enough. But for fat loss, I'm actually dropping taking shakes entirely starting now and going to chew all my protein instead. The more research I do, the more I realize of course the supplement companies will tells us we need every kind of thing to take at every single second of the day to optimize amino intake or insulin etc, so they can profit selling us crap we don't need...maybe extreme atheltes need them; maybe pros and competitors need them, but someone like me, who does bodybuilding workouts as a hobby, does not.

I'm still doing intermittent fasting, which I just like doing, and I have reduced meals to 3 meals in 8 hours; larger more satiating meals rather than small ones. That's the plan for now and I'll see how I go from here; so long as my cals are down I should experience fat loss regardless as I have been. Being an INTP personality type, i keep second guessing myself and always changing things around, lol.. Flaw of the thinking kind.

[Maxgonzo]

Awesome post GearHeaded, thanks for the info. Getting ready for my first cycle and this cleared up a bunch of posts I've seen advocating for/against upping the protein.

Even on TRT I would slam carbs on heavy days and lower the protein to recover better and use the "protein-sparing" properties of massive carb intakes and it always worked well for me.

[EDCG19]

SO , if your running a cycle and you want to grow and get as big as possible, then do NOT over do the protein. the AAS is already making you way more efficient at using protein for muscle building. let that advantage guide you and get in just enough protein to provide the raw material (essential amino acids) to turn on protein synthesis and 'manufacture' new tissue.

So what about if you're training hard and need to recover quicker so adding in more protein should assist or help with that no? or is the cycle or standard TRT covers the recovery part already enough so you don't need to add in more protein

[EDCG19]

Would this apply while just on test, for example a TRT patient or someone cruising between cycles or simply just on test in between other compounds ?

I think it still works just the same but on cycle or when running heavier/higher dosages you're using you will be more efficient than just when you're on TRT but it still works the same you just get more out of a cycle than TRT

[GearHeaded]

So what about if you're training hard and need to recover quicker so adding in more protein should assist or help with that no?

lets say it was post workout, and you were really short on time and for some reason you had to choose between a whey protein shake with 50g of protein in it, or a high molecular weight carb shake with 50g of carbs in it. one or the other.
well for that post workout "anabolic window" , you are going to enhance recovery way quicker and more efficiently by slamming down that 50g of carbs over the protein (of course in an ideal world do both).

Glycogen and carb replenishment is going to lead to much faster recovery . heck the amino acids have a hard time getting into the muscles without the carbs and glucose available to put them in the muscle cell in the first place (amino acids get into muscle cells by catching a ride with carbs when insulin pushes carbs into muscle as glycogen).

this is also why Insulin is used to drastically increase recovery time for athletes or bodybuilders (we use exogenous insulin not just to put on more muscle, but to enhance recovery) . this is why say cross fit athletes will consume tons of carbs on days that they have events and keep their protein low.

sure amino acids and protein are very important too . but like I said, even the amino acids depend on the carbs to help with recovery

[EDCG19]

Okay, last question for now
What kind of carbs would you recommend post workout? I usually just have a protein shake and few hours later a meal

[GearHeaded]

Okay, last question for now
What kind of carbs would you recommend post workout? I usually just have a protein shake and few hours later a meal

something high glycemic and fast acting fast digesting that illicits a good insulin spike . you can find plenty of high molecular weight carb powders that do this ,, or if you want to stick to food then simply white rice, white bagel, or white potato all work pretty good (fyi - most fruits, or oats, do not)

simply combining a white bagel with your protein shake post workout will be benefical

[EDCG19]

something high glycemic and fast acting fast digesting that illicits a good insulin spike . you can find plenty of high molecular weight carb powders that do this ,, or if you want to stick to food then simply white rice, white bagel, or white potato all work pretty good (fyi - most fruits, or oats, do not)

simply combining a white bagel with your protein shake post workout will be benefical

Ok, this is usually my meals anyway but not post workout. I stick to rice and potatoes or sometimes oats for carbs


Here's another thing real quick, so BCAAs and amino powders during training, worth the $$$ or not? I usually just have some preworkout before hand but nothing after that other than water or sometimes I'll have a Gatorade during working out

[kelkel]

simply combining a white bagel with your protein shake post workout will be benefical

That's my norm. Although my protein drink includes peanut butter, banana, ice cream and honey.

[GearHeaded]

Ok, this is usually my meals anyway but not post workout. I stick to rice and potatoes or sometimes oats for carbs


Here's another thing real quick, so BCAAs and amino powders during training, worth the $$$ or not? I usually just have some preworkout before hand but nothing after that other than water or sometimes I'll have a Gatorade during working out

every client that I have right now utilizing insulin (maybe 10-13 or so) is going to be using EAAs in a intra workout drink. EAAs are preferred over BCAAs (main difference, BCAA's turn the electricity on to the factory, where EAA's run the whole factory itself). the EAAs are combined with a carb powder, and creatine as well . the insulin will then take the EAAs and Carbs and creatine and drive it directly into the muscle while there is a large amount of blood flow going on to that muscle (which happens during training).

you can get similar benefits but to a much lesser degree, even if you don't use insulin. so yes I think EAAs are one of the best supplements to use (just mix your EAAs with a carb drink or a Gatorade)

[GearHeaded]

That's my norm. Although my protein drink includes peanut butter, banana, ice cream and honey.

some people will use a cheaper Casein protein powder cause they want a bit slower digestion of the proteins . however, I like what your doing. just use a good whey protein and add a little bit of fats to it like you do, and that will naturally slow the absorption down a little bit for a more "trickle effect" ... not recommended for exogenous insulin use. but a great way to slow digestion a bit and up the calories . sounds tasty too

[Chrisp83TRT]

only to a much smaller degree and scale. being on TRT is not going to put you into supra-physiological levels and have all those things like protein turnover etc. that get ramped up and turned on by high dosages.

This was a good question... What do you suggest for someone cruising after a blast?
What kind of protein intake would you recommend ?

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[kelkel]

some people will use a cheaper Casein protein powder cause they want a bit slower digestion of the proteins . however, I like what your doing. just use a good whey protein and add a little bit of fats to it like you do, and that will naturally slow the absorption down a little bit for a more "trickle effect" ... not recommended for exogenous insulin use. but a great way to slow digestion a bit and up the calories . sounds tasty too

Oh it ends up being a meal when a bagel is added. Plus I normally use half-fat ice cream so I can use twice as much. It's a math thing.

[GearHeaded]

This was a good question... What do you suggest for someone cruising after a blast?
What kind of protein intake would you recommend ?

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if your just cruising on TRT , or your a regular TRT patient to begin with.. then your "natty" . TRT brings your levels to normal ranges. you don't get all the supra physiological effects and super compensation effects and high protein synthesis and nitrogen retention you would get by being on cycle..
so as a "natty" your not as efficient at using protein and you therefore would need more of it in that state then when your on cycle . you also don't have the awesome nutrient partitioning effects and glycogen retention you get while on cycle ., therefore your carbs should go down.
so natty , protein goes up, carbs go down (unless your just bulking or a power lifter not worried about your physique)

[Obs]

Gh...
For a bulk diet on an enhanced guy what do you recommend per lb?