30%p/0%c/70%f/!!

**TOP** · 11-26-2009, 08:22 AM

Yes thats right 30% protein 0%carbs and 70%fat for five days then the ratio changes to a much,extremely,higher carb intake for 2 days striving for glycogen supercompensation. Im almost done reading THE BODYOPUS by Dan Duchaine,and he advocates the best diet is a ketogenic diet with a massive carb up twist. This goes against most things ive read. Maybe im behind times? Ive used carb cycling but never a 0carb diet for 5 straight days then a monster carb up for 2 days. For this to work the training is specific,3 days a week 2 on,2 off then 1 full body blitz with a recomposition PWO carb up and weekend carb up. Ive also seen people do straight keto diets but not like this..Just wanted to start a thread and talk about all the pros vs. cons feel free to chime in,anyone.(~NARK,FIREGUY~)...TOP

**Sfla80** · 11-26-2009, 09:05 AM

i can not put any input on this, i am just curious how you would get 70% fats in your daily intake?

***FireGuy*** · 11-26-2009, 09:17 AM

Sounds like a traditional keto diet with what Nark would call a "refeed" schedule built in. I would be interested in why the workout schedule is so specific, especially the full body blitz towards the end. My guess is this serves to make sure carb depletion is as high as possible in order to achieve a supercompensation on the high carb days. It actually looks very simliar to a one week out contest diet/training schedule.

***D7M*** · 11-26-2009, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

Sounds like a traditional keto diet with what Nark would call a "refeed" schedule built in. I would be interested in why the workout schedule is so specific, especially the full body blitz towards the end. My guess is this serves to make sure carb depletion is as high as possible in order to achieve an supercompensation on the high carb days. It actually looks very simliar to a one week out contest diet/training schedule.

Exactly what I was thinking.

**big_k** · 11-26-2009, 09:59 AM

Hey Top have you read The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald? He actually talks about something that is almost mirrored like this.

Usually a Keto Diet is 6 days, with 1 carb up, but he later mentions variations where you have 5 days, and then a 2 day carbup. Your last workout is intended purely to deplete as much Glycogen as possible.

Heres a Table Describing it. I believe his numbers were based on a lot of research studies, although he states they are estimates and cannot be 100% accurate

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by FireGuy1

Sounds like a traditional keto diet with what Nark would call a "refeed" schedule built in.

Bingo.

Nothing 'new' or 'ground-breaking'.

Heck I've got one of my clients running a 7-on, 1-off keto right now.

There are so many ways to do keto (Palumbo's high protein v.s. the standard high fat etc.)... so many ratios of macros and days.

But, like I've said on my thread more times than I can count, keto-dieting is a tool... not an indefinite way of eating.

People need to understand the how and why of its application.

Most don't.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by goode80

i can not put any input on this, i am just curious how you would get 70% fats in your daily intake?

Really isn't difficult dude.

Meats have fat in 'em. Fattier cuts have more fat.

Add supplemental fat to a fatty cut of meat and presto... 70% allotment.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by **TOP**

Yes thats right 30% protein 0%carbs and 70%fat

btw: Anybody with experience in keto-dieting (namely creating keto diets) would know that 0% carbs is just about impossible.

Meats have small amounts of carbs (re: glycogen).
Eggs have small amounts of carbs.
Non-oil fat sources tend to have trace amounts of carbs.
And non-husk fiber sources tend to have carbs.

Ergo, a more realistic ratio of macros is: 30:5:65 pro/carb/fat.

**oscarjones** · 11-26-2009, 10:19 AM

How long do you have people run this type of Keto diet for?

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

How long do you have people run this type of Keto diet for?

Are you asking me or the OP?

**oscarjones** · 11-26-2009, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Are you asking me or the OP?

Yeah, directed at you Nark. My bad.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

Yeah, directed at you Nark. My bad.

Depends on the individual, and the reason for the diet.

If it's for insulin sensitization purposes solely... firstly, the type of keto-diet (e.g. High protein v.s. High fat etc.) would be influenced. Duration would be anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks... depending on how the person responds.

If it's a fat-adapted individual, duration may be 8-12 weeks.

**big_k** · 11-26-2009, 11:06 AM

I've ran a 60-30-10 for 3 months, I was at a high BF % and saw some pretty drastic changes. I kept going for 2 more months and didn't see too much of a difference after that... (should I changed things up!)

**oscarjones** · 11-26-2009, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Depends on the individual, and the reason for the diet.

If it's for insulin sensitization purposes solely... firstly, the type of keto-diet (e.g. High protein v.s. High fat etc.) would be influenced. Duration would be anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks... depending on how the person responds.

If it's a fat-adapted individual, duration may be 8-12 weeks.

What would you recommend for a moderately fit female individual who suffers from hypoglycemia? Is a Keto type diet applicable for fat-loss in this case?

Thanks.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by big_k

(should I changed things up!)

Yes.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

What would you recommend for a moderately fit female individual who suffers from hypoglycemia? Is a Keto type diet applicable for fat-loss in this case?

Thanks.

Ideally, I'd say 'no'. I can't say definitely without reviewing her diet history.

However, I'd fathom that (in a situation like that) I'd put her on moderate carbs, moderate protein and moderate fat... Foods would be chosen from low-GL sources, as said individual would release a higher than average amount of insulin in relation to less fiber-rich carbohydrates. A moderate level of each macro would mean allow for an optimal amount of accompanying goodies like fiber, essential fatty acids, and phytonutrients... all of which would positively contribute to blood sugar maintenance and composition changes.

**BJJ** · 11-26-2009, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by **TOP**

Yes thats right 30% protein 0%carbs and 70%fat for five days then the ratio changes to a much,extremely,higher carb intake for 2 days striving for glycogen supercompensation. Im almost done reading THE BODYOPUS by Dan Duchaine,and he advocates the best diet is a ketogenic diet with a massive carb up twist. This goes against most things ive read. Maybe im behind times? Ive used carb cycling but never a 0carb diet for 5 straight days then a monster carb up for 2 days. For this to work the training is specific,3 days a week 2 on,2 off then 1 full body blitz with a recomposition PWO carb up and weekend carb up. Ive also seen people do straight keto diets but not like this..Just wanted to start a thread and talk about all the pros vs. cons feel free to chime in,anyone.(~NARK,FIREGUY~)...TOP

I did that protocol when I was natural but it was 25% protides and 75% fats.
It was not easy to achieve it, especially the last days in the morning.
One can give it a try but health speaking, it is a very bad experience for the organism.

**TOP** · 11-26-2009, 04:23 PM

OK finished the rest of the book,and i see why his diet didnt take off into the world of diets,its simply to disciplined for ordinary people!!Although he says he didnt make it for ordinary people. FG and Nark are right its a bit like a pre contest diet but he advises doing it for longer or until said goal is met. The training is specific in the way of sunday night at 6 carbs stop,and as Nark said there is no way to keep a diet 0 carbs due to hidden carbs. But it needs to be very VERY low ,anyway mon through mid friday are 0(or close as you can get)carbs. Mondays workout is lower body ,tues workout is upper body,wed and thurs are off other than cardio(optional) By this time you would be prolly feeling like shit but thats not the hard part. Fridays workout in the everning is a 2 hour full body glycogen deplinishment(I say 2hrs because he says he has never finished in under 2 hours) once the workout is completed Glycogen recomp begins,now this is were i beleive NARK'S refeed days comes in but, Duchaine's take is to have simple carbs PWO (and he has a formula that is like 16grams carbs per 1lbs of lean mass or something ,if you want the # ill throw it up) THIS IS WERE IT GETS DISCIPLINED!! Most "normal" people will think this is crazy,but due to insulin sensitivity this is why this works so well. The carb formula is used for every 2 hours after PWO this means if you finish the whole body workout at 8pm you now must have the formula carbs and protein to fit like this until sunday at 6pm:..8pm....10pm....12am...2am....4am...6am...8am ..10am...12pm...2pm...4pm....6pm...8pm...10.pm.... 12am....2am....4am...6am....you get the point!! He also goes into what carbs being that you start with simple and as the weekend progresses it goes to more complex, then at the end of the sunday cycle ITS SIMPLE AGAIN TO HAVE A SUGAR CRASH TO ENABLE THE BODY TO GET KICKSTARTED FOR MONDAYS 0CARBS AGAIN! REPEAT!

Like i said i have seen keto diets, carb cycling ,and contest prep diets, but nothing like this schedule. He advocates that this should only be used for an anti-catobolism diet while precontest. The book also goes into the use of AAS,T3,insulin drug manipulation,diuretics..etc I highly suggest reading it,if only for education purposes to make you better and help you better understand your body. GOOD BOOK! .....TOP

Also i have the PDF form of this book if you wanna copy i can email it,its only like 350 pages so not to long but very informative.

**oscarjones** · 11-26-2009, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

Ideally, I'd say 'no'. I can't say definitely without reviewing her diet history.

However, I'd fathom that (in a situation like that) I'd put her on moderate carbs, moderate protein and moderate fat... Foods would be chosen from low-GL sources, as said individual would release a higher than average amount of insulin in relation to less fiber-rich carbohydrates. A moderate level of each macro would mean allow for an optimal amount of accompanying goodies like fiber, essential fatty acids, and phytonutrients... all of which would positively contribute to blood sugar maintenance and composition changes.

Thank you!

But... Is the bold statement you made true for hypo-glycemic, or hyperglycemic individuals? I thought hypo meant under-sweetened, which is what she has. To what degree she has hypoglycemia - I do not know and will have to ask her to define her condition to me better, and if she knows what caused it.

Appreciate your input.

**ranging1** · 11-26-2009, 07:20 PM

i think its funny becuase this diet was originally used and still today to help kids with epilepsy to reduce seizures

however agree with nark, this is nothing new, its just a keto diet with a refeed period

**TOP** · 11-26-2009, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

Thank you!

But... Is the bold statement you made true for hypo-glycemic, or hyperglycemic individuals? I thought hypo meant under-sweetened, which is what she has. To what degree she has hypoglycemia - I do not know and will have to ask her to define her condition to me better, and if she knows what caused it.

Appreciate your input.

Whether she has Hypo or Hyper,the best thing for her to do is just keep blood sugar levels stable the best she can DO NOT do the bodyopus diet for sure!!

**oscarjones** · 11-26-2009, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by **TOP**

Whether she has Hypo or Hyper,the best thing for her to do is just keep blood sugar levels stable the best she can DO NOT do the bodyopus diet for sure!!

Makes sense I suppose... tx.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

Thank you!

But... Is the bold statement you made true for hypo-glycemic, or hyperglycemic individuals? I thought hypo meant under-sweetened, which is what she has. To what degree she has hypoglycemia - I do not know and will have to ask her to define her condition to me better, and if she knows what caused it.

Appreciate your input.

For reference: The prefix "Hypo" means 'low'... or 'under'.

The reason why their BGs drop low is because a.) cells are hyper-sensitive to insulin , b.) too much insulin is released in response to food ingested.

Remember that insulin is a transport hormone.

Release more than you need... and your blood glucose will drop.

No different than guys going hypo when shooting exogenous insulin. (In fact, the example of a guy going hypo is great... as it shows you what's going on with a hypoglycemic individual.)

In summary: the portion you quoted is correct.

**oscarjones** · 11-26-2009, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

For reference: The prefix "Hypo" means 'low'... or 'under'.

The reason why their BGs drop low is because a.) cells are hyper-sensitive to insulin , b.) too much insulin is released in response to food ingested.

Remember that insulin is a transport hormone.

Release more than you need... and your blood glucose will drop.

No different than guys going hypo when shooting exogenous insulin. (In fact, the example of a guy going hypo is great... as it shows you what's going on with a hypoglycemic individual.)

In summary: the portion you quoted is correct.

Ohh ok, thanks for clarifying. I was confused and I should know better. Really appreciate your help.

**Narkissos** · 11-26-2009, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by oscarjones

Ohh ok, thanks for clarifying. I was confused and I should know better. Really appreciate your help.

Never a problem brother.

**MuscleScience** · 11-26-2009, 08:59 PM

I like keto type diets I was doing a a 6 on 1 off refeed for 8 weeks total. Dropped about 4-5% bf and about 15 total lbs. Lost some strength but I noticed that my recovery between workouts was drastically reduced towards the end. I am Now off keto for two total weeks then will do another 8 weeks. Like nark mentioned it is virtually impossible to get zero carbs in. I figured I was getting about 30 grams of carbs a day.