41 Years old, Starting TRT - 100mg T + HCG

Hello All.

Been lurking on the forums for a while and have to say there is a wealth of information and many supportive members. Been recently diagnosed as hypogondal after some routine blood work. My most recent blood work taken in Jan 2012.

RBC - 5.83 (4.1-5.06 range)
Hemoglobin - 17.1 (12.5-17.0 range)

Cholesterol - 200 mg/dL (100-199)
LDL - 142 mg/dL (0-99)

Testerosterone, Bioavail with SHBG

Test, Serum (total) - 86 ng/dL (348-1197)
Bioavailable T - 50 ng/dL (95-350)
SHBG - 23 nmol/L

Estradiol - 9.2 pg/mL (8.0-35)

Prolactin - 7.9 ng/mL (3-18)

T4 free - 1.64 ng/dL (.82-1.77)

LH - 0.6 mUI/mL(1.7-8.6)
FSH - 0.9 mIU/mL (1.5-12.4)

I already had an MRI to check for anything that might be causing the low LH/FSH levels. Still waiting for results from a hemotologist to check for high iron levels and defective gene(hemocromatosis) since my RBC and hemocrit where slightly high. Doc thinks most likely sleep apnea.

Other details

41 years
5'10"
215 lbs - always struggled with weight and have a big muffin top.
Waist 43"

My GP has currently prescribed 100mg of T cyp a week and also wrote a script for HCG. I am following Crislens HRT protocol which calls for the following.

200 mg Tcyp front loaded. Injecting on Sunday
250 ius of HCG inject Friday and Sat before T cyp.

I am on my 2nd week now and just did my 2nd injection of t cyp this morning using 25g 1" needles into the quad.

Follow up blood work will be in 6 weeks after initial shot.

I have been working out and cleaning up my diet so hopefully with normal T levels and a good lifting program I can really make some changes to my body composition. Managed to drop 10 lbs in the last month.

I am considering purchasing Liquidex from ar-r just to have on hand in case I get sensitive nipples or signs of gyno. Not sure I will since Im only doing 100 mg a week but better safe than sorry.

Quick question regarding the AI. Is it recommended I start it right away since I am only doing 100mg a week of T cyp and my startin E2 level is really low? Maybe Ill see if my doc will prescribe some.

Edit: Just placed order for Liquidex. Will keep on hand just in case I feel any symptoms of gyno.

Welcome GFA, you've joined a great community.

You present as Secondary Hypogonadal for sure.

Glade to see your Doc is ruling out pathologies...he's knows what he's doing.

Your current E2 is in the tank because you're not producing due to low LH/FSH.

That will most likely increase over time with your exogenous testosterone.

I'd wait at least 6 weeks and test for all panels. If you need an AI at that point then add in...but I'd hold off for now.
Keep an eye for high E2 symptoms just to be safe.

You'll do fine following Crisler's protocol. You can change it up later if you want but it's good for now.

You're on the road to recovery and you won't believe how you will feel and look in just 90 days...wait a year and you won't notice yourself...trust me as I am one of those guys.

Thanks gdevine.

I am definitely secondary as I did a clomid stimulation test and responded well.

If I start feeling high E2, should I throw in the AI (ldex just ordered it)? Its a 1mg/ml 30 ml bottle. I saw a recommendation for 1mg per 100mg of test in one of the stickies.

The 1 mg AI to 100 mg of Test seems to be the starting point still further BW dictates protocol.

Again, IMO I wouldn't add in an AI yet. You are very low as it is and it takes time for E2 to rebound.

Wait till next BW and go from there.

BTW, your libido and erection quality must be for shits at these low levels...you will get much better soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gdevine

The 1 mg AI to 100 mg of Test seems to be the starting point still further BW dictates protocol.

Again, IMO I wouldn't add in an AI yet. You are very low as it is and it takes time for E2 to rebound.

Wait till next BW and go from there.

BTW, your libido and erection quality must be for shits at these low levels...you will get much better soon.

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Thanks.

I can still get erections but yes my libido sucks and its not easy to get erections.

I am killing it in the gym right now so I can hopefully pack on some muscle and lose some fat. When I make some decent progress Ill post up some before/after shots. The before shots are NOT pretty.

Good thing Im married already haha.

welcome here GFA! i agree with GD especially regarding AI.

GFA

Welcome and it appears you have a good doc there, that is 1/2 the battle. I don’t have the history/knowledge base that the other respondents have - I would say head their warning, allow the E2 to be verified as high via your blood work. By guessing your high, you’re doing just that and unless you have an AAS history, how would you even know your body symptoms of high E2? Prior to running my protocol and having a high E2 blood work I did not have a baseline to compare to.

I wouldn't worry about getting elevated E2 in that short period between blood work, your only 4 weeks out from the next one - I would be more concerned with crashing your E2 due to a guess.

Good Luck

Thanks guys.

Will wait till after first set of blood work. Tomorrow Ill get the results of my iron and hemochromatosis check.

My Gp is really good. My endo, meh dont really care too much for him. Hes old school, take some androgel and cya later. Androgel does absolutely nothing for me so I went back to my GP and he is the one treating me atm. I am looking for another endo right now, preferrably a younger one that is current with HRT.

Then again my GP is doing pretty much everything an endo would (an more) so not sure if its necessary. Would be nice to find an HRT specialist though.

Woke up bright and early, hit the gym and did day 12 of Kris Gethins 12 week program. Will post up some progress pics once I break <200 lbs.

OMFG ITs ME !!! ... You are my long lost twin brother... basically every thing you have / are doing is almost identical to me..Even the time you have been on HRT .. now thats scary .. thou your 2 yrs older then me... Booyahaaa ..:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GFA

Thanks.

I can still get erections but yes my libido sucks and its not easy to get erections.

I am killing it in the gym right now so I can hopefully pack on some muscle and lose some fat. When I make some decent progress Ill post up some before/after shots. The before shots are NOT pretty.

Good thing Im married already haha.

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welcome

good advice already..would like to just tighten up your statement about libido above..you dont mention if that was since you started trt or whether you had issues prior

good luck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gym_

OMFG ITs ME !!! ... You are my long lost twin brother... basically every thing you have / are doing is almost identical to me..Even the time you have been on HRT .. now thats scary .. thou your 2 yrs older then me... Booyahaaa ..:D

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So whats the story? :)

Any other information related to your T deficiency? Ill find out tomorrow regarding the iron/hemochromatosis.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jpkman

welcome

good advice already..would like to just tighten up your statement about libido above..you dont mention if that was since you started trt or whether you had issues prior

good luck

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Its been before the TRT. I notice a spike after I do HCG shots. I hear it takes a few weeks for the T to really kick in, Ill report back any changes in libido when it happens.

Well my gears beter then yours brother becose its 12 days since i started and im a walking hard on..lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gym_

Well my gears beter then yours brother becose its 12 days since i started and im a walking hard on..lol

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What are you taking? Im on 100mg of Test cypionate. Been 8 days since first injection.

250mg of test E per fortnight ( 2 weeks ) 12 days.. and because i think it should be weekly i bought some sterile vials to put those into so i can then have 125mg per week ..

Next blood test is end of next month .. My levels before were 5.2 of (11-40 ) nmol/L

Attachment 120702

Interesting. I see mixed reports on what people use for TRT. Seem cypionate is more popular in the US. I hear enanthate is slightly cheaper? Im paying $80 for 10 ml vial 200mg/ml. Works out to $4 a week at my dosage.

I am starting to feel the oily skin kick in, especially on my face. Hope I dont break out lol. Might pick up some facial scrubs.

I feel like popeye waiting to eat my spinach each week waiting to do my next T injection heh.

Been working out hard in the gym, excited to see the progress I can make in the gym in the next few months once my T is normal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gym_

250mg of test E per fortnight

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LOL......You said "fortnight"

Welcome GFA, keep us posted on your progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JD250

LOL......You said "fortnight"

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Ya lost me on that one JD ? ... I'm on 125 a week dosed at 250mg a fortnight

Yeah GFA because I'm still under 40 till the end of this year i cant get the gov to pay for my gear on the public health system which is strange .. so it costs me $35 bucks per 3ml so about $6 bucks a week but after i turn 40 PBS covers it and i get it for like 6 bucks per 3ml ..

So at the moment it is cheaper for me to buy it on the black market at around $70 per 10ml then when it is to buy it over the counter ... Strange world we live in

and before anyone asks i have no freaking idea why I'm not coved for test under the age of 40 .. i may have to ring them up and ask what the go is .. because were coved for everything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gym_

Ya lost me on that one JD ? ... I'm on 125 a week dosed at 250mg a fortnight

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You Aussies talk funny.....even when you type. :)

Grr had this long post then said it was flagged as spam since I dont have 25 posts yet ;)

Today I get the results back from the hemotologist. Will post up the results.

In 5 weeks Ill post up some progress pics. Been hitting it hard in the gym 4-5 days lifting and cardio several days a week.

Diet has been pretty clean with ~200g of protein and 2k cals a day.

Sample diet from yesterday

PWO Shake (I workout in morning)
2 scoops whey, banana, tb npb - 500 cals 60g protein

oatmeal mixed with greek yogurt - 300 cals 20g protein

protein bar - 250 cals 20g protein

egg whites + 3 pieces turkey bacon - 200 cals, 30g protein

cottage cheese + cheese stick - 200 cals 15g protein

lean ground beef + carrots, 1/2 cup wheat spaghetti - 300 cals 25g protein

whey + 1/2 cup milk and water - 30g protein, 200 cals

Total
~1950 cals, 200g protein

I am for around 2k cals a day and 200g protein

Today is a cardio day

Keeping cals around 1800 today, 200g protein (lowering carbs some).

Will be doing 1 hour of cardio, run/walk on treadmill.

Body is SOOORE from yesterday. Back and biceps.

Threw in some Romanian deads. I woke up thinking why are the back of my legs hurting then I remembered, deadlifts...

Just got back from the hemotologist.

Good news, iron levels are fine and don't have hemochromatosis. Hes scratching his head trying to figure out why I have elevated RBC though.

Wants me to continue with T injections then monitor my RBC for the next few months and possibly do blood letting to get RBC down if necessary.

Next visit is 2 1/2 months from now with him. Told him I will be down 20-30 lbs by then :)

I secretly recorded my visit today with my hematologist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCiLly1DoFI

Wasnt far off from this.. Doc didnt know what exactly was wrong with my T levels so he kept speculating. Needless to say it was very similar to the video haha.

Morning all!

2 T shots done (200mg) - next shot sunday 100mg and then 100mg thereafter.

I have been working out and tracking my progress and here it is for the past 40 days.

Weight 216.6 - Wut?
227.6, 222, 219, 218.2, 216, 214.6, 216.6

Waist - 43" (down 2.5" from start, 45.5")
45.5, 45, 44, 43.75, 43.25, 43

The workout! (up on weight/reps on all exercises this week ROOAAAR)

10 mins cardio warmup

Bench
150x14
170x10
190x5
210x3

WG Press
115x12
130x9
145x6
160x4


Fly
100x15
115x11
130x8
145x4

Tricep Press
110x11
130x9
150x9

Tricep extensions
50x15
65x12
80x6

Couch to 5k week 2 day 2 (33 mins)

Total time 1hr 30 mins

Thoughts for this week:
Diet was spot on, cleaned up macros more, 2k cals a day, didnt weigh myself all week and was quite surprised it went up 2 lbs. Good thing for the waist measurements, it went down again this week. I can only guess its water or maybe some muscle too? Most likely its related to my TRT I started 2 weeks ago. I guess I dont really care what I weigh if my waist keeps going down. I somewhat expected my weight to possibly go up some.

Been getting stronger each week and putting in 100% each workout. I had to peel my shirts off today. Nasty. Like peeling skin of a fish. A fat fish. A fat, slimy, smelly fish.

The statue
I know you have seen him. The guy that goes to the gym, does the exact same thing each day, some cardio, and NEVER changes, weight or appearance. Hence the title the statue. Its been bothering me more lately, seeing this guy in the gym probably mid 40s, chubby, more like dumpy and does around 20 mins of elliptical a day. FAST, beet red, dripping wet. Wears biker shorts too. Quite the sight to see.

Maybe when I get my body in better shape and have some decent before/after pics, Ill approach him and see if he wants some pointers. I have seen him there 2 years now. Never changes, always the statue.

OK first of I have to say that was damn funny video and yes it's true with a lot of doctors.
Glad to hear you found a good GP, most dont seem to know anything and it's the endo who knows more but not always. My endo is old school also. :(

Dont worry, the changes will come soon enough now that you started TRT. Ive been there, done that a few years ago. Dont sweat the RBC levels. Mine were elevated for a while but came down on their own without the blood letting. You can just donate blood also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lovbyts

OK first of I have to say that was damn funny video and yes it's true with a lot of doctors.
Glad to hear you found a good GP, most dont seem to know anything and it's the endo who knows more but not always. My endo is old school also. :(

Dont worry, the changes will come soon enough now that you started TRT. Ive been there, done that a few years ago. Dont sweat the RBC levels. Mine were elevated for a while but came down on their own without the blood letting. You can just donate blood also.

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Ya as soon as he started going off on all these "possible" reasons my blood is slightly out of range, I thought of that video. I finally told him, lets just wait and see before we speculate.

He "speculated" I had hemochromatosis and I was going nuts for 2 weeks waiting for the results after researching it.

Curious what my e2 levels are. Kinda surprised I put on 2 lbs already this week. I have liquidex coming in today but wont take it until after my next bloodwork if my e2 is high.

Im just glad I took the weight measurements, I didnt think my weight could go up that fast. As long as waist goes down, I dont care about the weight :) Comfortably down 2 notches on the belt.

Keep up the good work and keep an open dialogue with the doc, looks like your on the right track just remember to listen to your body, you may need a rest once in a while so dont be afraid to take a day off from the weights and recover. Test will make you feel like a you can do more than your body is able to do, especially if you've been out of the gym for a while. Good job on the diet and workout bro, keep moving forward and in a year you won't recognize yourself.

216? wut???? wtf?????

lol..jk...congrats..

from a bb standpoint u could post up your routine in that forum for best critique but just from my perspective the first 2 chest moves you used didnt look like you were attacking a lot of different fibers/angles...i know u say your not gonna be like the "statue" but idk i would have thown in a decline and/or incline in that mix...just my amateur .02 and trying to be helpful

thanks for the update and glad bro

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jpkman

216? wut???? wtf?????

lol..jk...congrats..

from a bb standpoint u could post up your routine in that forum for best critique but just from my perspective the first 2 chest moves you used didnt look like you were attacking a lot of different fibers/angles...i know u say your not gonna be like the "statue" but idk i would have thown in a decline and/or incline in that mix...just my amateur .02 and trying to be helpful

thanks for the update and glad bro

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Thanks for the pointers, Ill check out the threads. The WG press should be incline actually. Not sure why I wrote WG. Im following a 12 week program at the moment. Starting Week 3 tomorrow.

Id like to incorporate some dips (weighted one day!) in the chest/tricep day as well. Need to trim down a bit and get a little more strength to do them. I love dips.

Going to read up on some of their routines.

wut = what? :) but wtf is just as appropriate. I was all excited to see how much I lost because I just finished checking my waist measurement and was like AHHH ya down another .25", should be down another 2 lbs. NOPE! Denied.

Btw my research chems just came in the mail for the ldex. Keeping in my stash until I need to experiment on my rats. Waiting to get their results back first in a few weeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GFA

Thanks for the pointers, Ill check out the threads. The WG press should be incline actually. Not sure why I wrote WG. Im following a 12 week program at the moment. Starting Week 3 tomorrow.

Id like to incorporate some dips (weighted one day!) in the chest/tricep day as well. Need to trim down a bit and get a little more strength to do them. I love dips.

Going to read up on some of their routines.

wut = what? :) but wtf is just as appropriate. I was all excited to see how much I lost because I just finished checking my waist measurement and was like AHHH ya down another .25", should be down another 2 lbs. NOPE! Denied.

Btw my research chems just came in the mail for the ldex. Keeping in my stash until I need to experiment on my rats. Waiting to get their results back first in a few weeks.

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lol...
and yes to dips bro...smart man..

keep killin it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JD250

Keep up the good work and keep an open dialogue with the doc, looks like your on the right track just remember to listen to your body, you may need a rest once in a while so dont be afraid to take a day off from the weights and recover. Test will make you feel like a you can do more than your body is able to do, especially if you've been out of the gym for a while. Good job on the diet and workout bro, keep moving forward and in a year you won't recognize yourself.

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Thanks man.

I take 2 days off from lifting a week.

Usually 3 on 1 off 2 on 1 off.

Sometimes on the off days Ill do some cardio. Treadmill or bike.

Thinking of changing my macros some more.

Adding more protein and dropping carbs. Currently Im at 40/40/20 (p,c,f). Might move to 50/30/20. I am for 200g of protein a day. Want to bump that up to 250 a day. Might as well take advantage of the protein synthesis while I can :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GFA

Ya as soon as he started going off on all these "possible" reasons my blood is slightly out of range, I thought of that video. I finally told him, lets just wait and see before we speculate.

He "speculated" I had hemochromatosis and I was going nuts for 2 weeks waiting for the results after researching it.

Curious what my e2 levels are. Kinda surprised I put on 2 lbs already this week. I have liquidex coming in today but wont take it until after my next bloodwork if my e2 is high.

Im just glad I took the weight measurements, I didnt think my weight could go up that fast. As long as waist goes down, I dont care about the weight :) Comfortably down 2 notches on the belt.

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You know after re reading your post I have to say/think maybe this the normal routine for these doctors. I saw a heart doctor yesterday due to my recent EKG being DIFFERENT (whatever that means) than my last one in 2003. My blood pressure is also elevated typically when it is checked and I have just gotten off a 12 hr shift and been up for18 hrs +. Go figure. :rolleyes: Every time it's checked in the morning it's perfectly fine.

So the doctor basically did the same thing you are saying. It could be this or that or nothing, more than likely nothing but then again this or that can cause it so we had better do a full sonogram where they do the ultra sound at rest, do the tread mill BP test and then another ultrasound.

They should check it now, Ive been up over 24 hrs and dont plan on going to bed for another 8 hrs.

Water weight is creeping up fast.

2 weeks ago I was 214, this morning I weighed myself 220. Gain of 6 lbs.

Strength is going up in the gym and waist/belt line still going down. Going to increase water intake to see if that helps some.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lovbyts

You know after re reading your post I have to say/think maybe this the normal routine for these doctors. I saw a heart doctor yesterday due to my recent EKG being DIFFERENT (whatever that means) than my last one in 2003. My blood pressure is also elevated typically when it is checked and I have just gotten off a 12 hr shift and been up for18 hrs +. Go figure. :rolleyes: Every time it's checked in the morning it's perfectly fine.

So the doctor basically did the same thing you are saying. It could be this or that or nothing, more than likely nothing but then again this or that can cause it so we had better do a full sonogram where they do the ultra sound at rest, do the tread mill BP test and then another ultrasound.

They should check it now, Ive been up over 24 hrs and dont plan on going to bed for another 8 hrs.

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if your fine when you havent been taxed i hope you portrayed that to the doc and also i'm sure you know that these docs stand to make money on ordering unnecessary tests...

i recently spoke to a dude who took his wife in to get an antiboitic for a cold or virus something simple....well the doc ordered an MRI!! they were suspicious but followed thru..contacted there insurance co. and soon found THAT doc LOST HIS LICENSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so stoked...I HATE MALPRACTICE WITH A PASSION...THERE ALREADY MAKING TOP DOLLAR then tying this kind of SHIT..............anyway...this doctor also complained he was BEING PICKED ON CUZ HE WAS MIDDLE EASTERN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quick update

Been on test/hcg for 3 weeks now, 4th injection tomorrow. Just wanted to post some stats from pre test and post test treatment. I started gaining some weight but now that is coming back down but notice the 2 points of interest below.

Weight is slightly more than pre treatment but waist is almost an inch smaller already.

http://forums.steroid.com/attachment...6&d=1331387390

Attachment 121056

Saw the endo last week and he wants me to try 1.62% androgel 2 pumps a day for a month to see if that is effective. He thinks it will keep my levels more stable and not raise my RBC/hemocrit like test shots will.

I picked up a loofa and some moisturizer after reading a few posts to help with absorption.

Next wed I am getting my bloodwork to see how the test shots are working (100mg a week).

Anyways not making any changes until after my bloodwork and will adjust test shots accordingly. I might try to gel after my bloodwork for a month to see how well it works.

Edit:

Down to 209, waist down to 41.5". Next mini goal sub 200!

I've been on 5g Androgel 1% for 8 weeks, and my pre-dose (trough) level was 287 ng/dl at week 7. Doctor increased the dose to 7.5g of the same stuff, so I'm hoping to be around 430 next test. These doses are "equivalent" to 50 & 75mg test-cyp IM injections, with net testosterone delivered being 35 & 52.5mg. Next step would be 4 pumps of the 1.62%, then injections if I need to go much higher.

Not to dissuade you from trying the gel, but the proposed 2-pump (2.5g) dose of Androgel 1.62% will be only 40.5mg (28.35 delivered). Since testosterone levels on TRT are typically dose-dependent, the likelihood that 40.5mg/wk would be as effective as 100mg/wk is slim. However, your levels will be more stable and RBC/hematocrit will look better.

I tried androgel 1% in the past 4-5 pumps a day and it didn't do much for my test levels. The endo claims the new formula should work better but I prefer the shots. Shots because I only do it once a week and no risk of cross contamination with my kids or wife.

The only reason he is suggesting the androgel is to maintain better RBC/hemocrit levels. He wants my test in the 500ish range. Seriously doubt 2 pumps will work.

Anyways will find out next week how the test shots are going. Then Ill decide if I even want to try the gel.