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Thread: Can GHRP-6 and CJC-1295 bring on Acromelagy (GH Gut)

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    Question Can GHRP-6 and CJC-1295 bring on Acromelagy (GH Gut)

    I assume this is a pretty basic question but then I'm rather new to the Peptide side of things. I have just started using some GHRP-6 and will possibly soon add in some CJC-1295.

    I'd like to know if the the typical side effects attributed to long term HGH use in excessive doses also apply, i.e gh gut, enlarged flat bones etc etc. I think I may also need so clarification regarding the probability of these side effects occurring even on hgh after reading the following statement on another board:

    "Acromelagy can only occur if you are predisposed to it (i.e. have the gene) in which case you will likely have already been exhibiting symptoms of this disease. Any GH (including your own natural production) can exacerbate symptoms."

    Could someone please shed some light on all of this?

    Mick

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    Really would like to hear some info about this. Would like to know if there is a "safe" dosing protocol where upon the chance of gh gut and associated problems can be avoided.

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    bump

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    I've also tried to ask questions about ghrp6 and GRF for weeks, noone seems to know shit about this here....

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    Hmm, judging from the lack of input here I'd have to agree. My question is pretty straight forward, actually felt embarrassed asking such a basic question as generally I research such fundamentals myself.

    I've tried searching for info on this board but there really isn't much to be found. Will have to keep looking elsewhere, if by chance to stumble across this info could you please let me know what you find.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mick86 View Post
    I assume this is a pretty basic question but then I'm rather new to the Peptide side of things. I have just started using some GHRP-6 and will possibly soon add in some CJC-1295.

    I'd like to know if the the typical side effects attributed to long term HGH use in excessive doses also apply, i.e gh gut, enlarged flat bones etc etc. I think I may also need so clarification regarding the probability of these side effects occurring even on hgh after reading the following statement on another board:

    "Acromelagy can only occur if you are predisposed to it (i.e. have the gene) in which case you will likely have already been exhibiting symptoms of this disease. Any GH (including your own natural production) can exacerbate symptoms."

    Could someone please shed some light on all of this?

    Mick
    I don't think anyone has answered you because the peptides are still relatively new.

    On that note, I'll give you my opinion. Acromegaly is caused by an increase in pituitary output, usualy a GH producing tumor called pituitary adenoma, not because you have a certain gene. Therefore I'd assume if you are excessively increasing your gh output with peptides you could end up with symptoms of acromegaly.

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    big aussie is offline New Member
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    cjc and ghrp are crap,you should have saved your coin and bought real hgh. and no you wont get any of those side affects you mention.

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    i think sides from GHRP-6 and other peptides are relatively small as they are not as powerful as real GH in my opinion i would just save my coin and get real GH prescribed to me although its so expensive its still worth it

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    Quote Originally Posted by big aussie View Post
    cjc and ghrp are crap,you should have saved your coin and bought real hgh. and no you wont get any of those side affects you mention.
    Cjc and Ghrp are not crap. I've run them both and had really good results backed up by blood work. Have you even tried them?

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    Guys,

    Found a good article outlining the difference between endocrine (HGH) and autocrine/paracrine (Peptides).

    http://www.pnas.org/content/96/12/7088.full

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    I didn't see anything in that article about peptides.

    Autocrine/paracrine is not refering to peptides, just IGF-1 being derived somewhere else than the liver from GH.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCannon View Post
    Cjc and Ghrp are not crap. I've run them both and had really good results backed up by blood work. Have you even tried them?
    yes i have actually,i had a script and got them directly from a compound pharmacist.i used them both for 3 months,all i got was extreme hunger and put weight on,no fat reduction at all,ive been in this game for over 10 years and competed many times,so dont tell me it was my diet or anything else.even the pharmacist told me these are nothing compared to hgh. you cant honestly tell me you think cjc and ghrp compare to hgh? because i certainly dont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCannon View Post
    I don't think anyone has answered you because the peptides are still relatively new.

    On that note, I'll give you my opinion. Acromegaly is caused by an increase in pituitary output, usualy a GH producing tumor called pituitary adenoma, not because you have a certain gene. Therefore I'd assume if you are excessively increasing your gh output with peptides you could end up with symptoms of acromegaly.
    Hmm, I'm inclined to agree with you, though still haven't found any studies covering the likelihood that ghrp-6/CJC-1295 w/o the DAC could raise GH levels high enough to cause this.

    Quote Originally Posted by big aussie View Post
    cjc and ghrp are crap,you should have saved your coin and bought real hgh. and no you wont get any of those side affects you mention.
    The price difference is huge, the peptides are cheap, HGH in Australia is really dear so it seems worth a shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by yarakefendi View Post
    i think sides from GHRP-6 and other peptides are relatively small as they are not as powerful as real GH in my opinion i would just save my coin and get real GH prescribed to me although its so expensive its still worth it
    I don't know of anyone as young as me being prescribed HGH, i'd consider it down the track but for now I'm happy to dabble like this. Worth a shot in between cycles with a bit of insulin .

    Quote Originally Posted by DCannon View Post
    Cjc and Ghrp are not crap. I've run them both and had really good results backed up by blood work. Have you even tried them?
    What kind of results, muscle/strength gain, fat loss, tissue repair or a combo? Were you on anything else at the time?

    Quote Originally Posted by xhooker View Post
    Guys,

    Found a good article outlining the difference between endocrine (HGH) and autocrine/paracrine (Peptides).

    http://www.pnas.org/content/96/12/7088.full
    I'm not sure that that article is relates to the Peptides we are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by big aussie View Post
    yes i have actually,i had a script and got them directly from a compound pharmacist.i used them both for 3 months,all i got was extreme hunger and put weight on,no fat reduction at all,ive been in this game for over 10 years and competed many times,so dont tell me it was my diet or anything else.even the pharmacist told me these are nothing compared to hgh. you cant honestly tell me you think cjc and ghrp compare to hgh? because i certainly dont.
    I know cjc and ghrp compare to hgh because I had my IGF-1 levels checked before and after just 5 weeks of cjc and ghrp. My IGF-1 level was 186 when I started and after 5 weeks it was 518. There is no way you can tell me they are crap. I have a log on here about when I used them.

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    Could you please post the link to your log? I'd be very interested to read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mick86 View Post
    Could you please post the link to your log? I'd be very interested to read it.
    Hey man. Maybe I can help you with info on the peps.
    I run ghrp2 c1295 aka mod grf 1-29 w/out dac at 100x3
    Either PM me of check out my log here:
    http://chemicalmass.com/showthread.php?t=4329

    If ur not a member use me as your referral please. Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yarakefendi View Post
    i think sides from GHRP-6 and other peptides are relatively small as they are not as powerful as real GH in my opinion i would just save my coin and get real GH prescribed to me although its so expensive its still worth it
    A couple things, when you describe "the sides of peps as relatively small as they are not as powerful" are you speaking from personal experience or hearsay?

    Also when you say "real gh" are you describing exogenous gh injections?

    Real gh is created when the pituitary is stimulated into creating a "pulse".
    This pulse releases real gh . Anything else is supplemental not real.

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    The distended guts you see in certain BBers is NOT from intestinal enlargement. Good god. The amount of growth you'd have to see in those organs to distend one's gut would be phenomenal. Intestines are relatively thinly walled, flexible, soft tubes. To cause notable distension, it would mean the intestines are growing in length, wall thickness, diameter... they would literally constrict themselves. Simply because skeletal muscle and certain epithelial, smooth muscle (and other) cells in the gut both have IGF-1 receptors does NOT mean they react to the peptide's presence in the same way! And yes, acromegaly DOES mean internal organs grow as well. However, bear in mind these people have elevated GH levels 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for YEARS at a time. The first symptoms are NOT enlarged intestines or a large gut. Rather, cardiac hypertrophy, enlargement of vocal cords, enlargement of the tongue, etc. are all seen first.

    One of the main concerns I see people talking about is the smooth muscle that comprises the intestinal walls... in other words, you've got muscle tissue in there with a high concentration of receptors. Yes, intestinal smooth muscle has a high amount of IGF-1 receptors, and IGF both inhibits apoptosis (cell destruction) in this tissue as well as promotes growth. However, smooth muscle hypertrophy occurs at a MUCH slower rate than skeletal muscle (striated) or even cardiac muscle. There are certain conditions (Crohn's disease, etc.) where notable intestinal hypertrophy occurs (over years), and causes a huge number of problems. A distended gut is NOT one of the signs of said hypertrophy.

    Insulin , steroids , IGF, etc. can all increase the amount of visceral fat carried by the body, cause hypertrophy of the rectus abdominus, transverse abdominus, and obliques, cause GI upset (and therefore gas)... many BBing diets cause changes in gut flora and fauna (also causing gas)... these are ALL factors that cause that notable distension in top BBers. GH gut is a myth with NO scientific backing whatsoever. Not that it can't technically occur, but that it's responsible for the big guts you see out there. These guys would have chronically impacted bowels, severe cardiac issues, grossly enlarged larynxes, and a bunch of other problems stemming from GH/IGF-1 use before their growing intestines became a problem.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferdinand View Post
    I've also tried to ask questions about ghrp6 and GRF for weeks, noone seems to know shit about this here....
    My personal thought is that I doubt it would. Possibly if you abused it,,who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DCannon View Post
    Great read, thanks for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeguard102 View Post
    A couple things, when you describe "the sides of peps as relatively small as they are not as powerful" are you speaking from personal experience or hearsay?

    Also when you say "real gh" are you describing exogenous gh injections?

    Real gh is created when the pituitary is stimulated into creating a "pulse".
    This pulse releases real gh . Anything else is supplemental not real.
    A relevant read on the topic:

    (Posted by hazcat on another board)

    Intro to Natural GH Release and GHRH/GHRPs
    What is growth hormone by DatBtrue

    Synthetic Growth Hormone is an artificially created hormone "identical" to the major naturally produced (endogenous) isoform. It is often referred to by its molecular mass which is 22kDa (kilodaltons) and is made up of a sequence of 191 amino acids (primary structure) with a very specific folding pattern that comprise a three-dimensional structure (tertiary structure). This tertiary structure is subject to potential shape change through a process known as thermal denaturation. While many labs are capable of generating growth hormone (GH) with the proper primary structure not all will be capable of creating a tertiary structure identical to the major naturally occurring growth hormone. The tertiary structure can determine the strength with which the growth hormone molecule binds to a receptor which will in turn affect the "strength" of the intracellular signaling which mediates the events leading to protein transcription, metabolism, IGF-1 creation, etc. It is this inconsistency that accounts in part for the differences in effectiveness of various non-pharmaceutically produced synthetic growth hormone.

    Naturally produced Growth Hormone is produced in the anterior pituitary and to a far lesser extent in peripheral tissue. It is made up of a blend of isoforms the majority of which is the 22kDa (191 amino acid) variety with which most are familiar. In addition an isoform that is missing the 15 amino acids that interact with the prolactin receptor is also produced. This form is known as 20kDa and although it binds differently to the growth hormone receptor it has been shown to be equally potent to 22kDa. It appears that 20kDa has lower diabetogenic activity then 22kDa. The pituitary releases a blend of these two isoforms with 20kDa averaging perhaps 10% of the total although this percentage increases post-exercise. Currently there is no synthetic produced for external administration for this isoform.

    Growth hormone (GH) in the body is released in pulsatile fashion. It has been demonstrated that this pattern promotes growth. The pituitary is capable of rather quickly synthesizing very large amounts of growth hormone which it stores large amounts in both a finished and unfinished form. Adults rarely experience GH pulses (i.e. releases of pituitary stores) that completely deplete these stores. As we age we do not lose the ability to create and store large amounts of growth hormone. Rather we experience a diminished capacity to "instruct" their release. The volume of GH that is released can not be properly equated to the exogenous administration of synthetic GH for the reason that a set of behavioral characteristics accompany natural GH that differ from those of synthetic GH. Among those characteristics are concentrated pulsatile release which upon binding in mass to growth hormone receptors on the surface of cells initiate signaling cascades which mediate growth events by translocating signaling proteins to the nucleus of the cell where protein transcription and metabolic events occur.

    These very important signaling pathways desensitize to Growth Hormone's initiating effects and need to experience an absence of Growth Hormone in order to reset and be ready to act again. The presence of GH released in pulsatile fashion is graphed as a wave with the low or no growth hormone period graphed as a trough. Therefore attempting to find a natural GH to synthetic GH equivalency is not very productive because in the end what is probably import is:

    - the quantity & quality of intracellular signaling events; and
    - the degree to which GH stimulates autocrine/paracrine (locally produced/locally used) muscle IGF-1 & post-exercise its splice variant MGF.


    Brief overview of natural GH release

    The initiation of growth hormone release in the pituitary is dependent on a trilogy of hormones:

    Somatostatin which is the inhibitory hormone and responsible in large part for the creation of pulsation;

    Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) which is the stimulatory hormone responsible for initiating GH release; and

    Ghrelin which is a modulating hormone and in essence optimizes the balance between the "on" hormone & the "off" hormone. Before Ghrelin was discovered the synthetic growth hormone releasing peptides (GHRPs) were created and are superior to Ghrelin in that they do not share Ghrelin's lipogenic behavior. These GHRPs are GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin and later Ipamorelin all of which behave in similar fashion.


    In the aging adult these Ghrelin-mimetics or the GHRPs restore a more youthful ability to release GH from the pituitary as they turn down somatostatin's negative influence which becomes stronger as we age and turn up growth hormone releasing hormone's influence which becomes weaker as we age.

    The exogenous administration of Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) creates a pulse of GH release which will be small if administered during a natural GH trough and higher if administered during a rising natural GH wave.

    Growth Hormone Releasing Peptides (GHRP-6, GHRP-2, Hexarelin) are capable of creating a larger pulse of GH on their own then GHRH and they do this with much more consistency and predictability without regard to whether a natural wave or trough of GH is currently taking place.

    Synergy of GHRH + GHRP

    It is well documented and established that the concurrent administration of Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) and a Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide (GHRP-6, GHRP-2 or Hexarelin) results in synergistic release of GH from pituitary stores. In other words if GHRH contributes a GH amount quantified as the number 2 and GHRPs contributed a GH amount quantified as the number 4 the total GH release is not additive (i.e. 2 + 4 = 6). Rather the whole is greater than the sum of the parts such that 2 + 4 = 10.

    While the GHRPs (GHRP-6, GHRP-2 and Hexarelin) come in only one half-life form and are capable of generating a GH pulse that lasts a couple of hours re-administration of a GHRP is required to effect additional pulses.

    Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) however is currently available in several forms which vary only by their half-lives. Naturally occurring GHRH is either a 40 or 44 amino acid peptide with the bioactive portion residing in the first 29 amino acids. This shortened peptide identical in behavior and half-life to that of GHRH is called Growth Hormone Releasing Factor and is abbreviated as GRF(1-29).

    GRF(1-29) is produced and sold as a drug called Sermorelin. It has a short-half life measured in minutes. If you prefer analogies think of this as a Testosterone Suspension (i.e. unestered).

    To increase the stability and half-life of GRF(1-29) four amino acid changes where made to its structure. These changes increase the half-life beyond 30 minutes which is more than sufficient to exert a sustained effect which will maximize a GH pulse. This form is often called tetrasubstituted GRF(1-29) (or modified) and unfortunately & confusingly mislabeled as CJC-1295. If you prefer analogies think of this as a Testosterone Propionate (i.e. short-estered).

    Note that some may also refer to this as CJC-1295 without the DAC (Drug Affinity Complex).

    Frequent dosing of either the aforementioned modified GRF(1-29) or regular GRF(1-29) is required and as previously indicated works synergistically with a GHRP.

    In an attempt to create a more convenient long-lasting GHRH, a compound known as CJC-1295 was created. This compound is identical to the aforementioned modified GRF(1-29) with the addition of the amino acid Lysine which links to a non-peptide molecule known as a "Drug Affinity Complex (DAC)". This complex allows GRF(1-29) to bind to albumin post-injection in plasma and extends its half-life to that of days. If you prefer analogies think of this as a Testosterone Cypionate (i.e. long-estered). However this is not accurate. CJC-1295 results in continual GH bleed. Although natural pulsation still occurs CJC-1295 does nothing to increase those pulses. Instead it raises base levels of GH and creates a more feminized pattern of release. This not desirable.

    modified GRF(1-29)however when combined with a GHRP brings about a substantial pulse which has desirable effects.

    What follows is:

    A Basic Peptide Primer (which introduces the concept & structure of peptides)

    A Brief Summary of Dosing and Administration (for someone that wants to know the "how to use" straight away)


    If all of this is a bit unclear because a lot of new concepts are thrown at you one of my original very thorough articles is available:


    Growth Hormone Secretagogues



    I have only one pet-peeve and that is when someone refers to synthetic growth hormone as "real" growth hormone. The GH that your body produces is as real as it gets. It is what grew you from a fetus to a boy (girl) and from a boy (girl) to a man (woman). - DatBtrue
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial10732 View Post
    The distended guts you see in certain BBers is NOT from intestinal enlargement. Good god. The amount of growth you'd have to see in those organs to distend one's gut would be phenomenal. Intestines are relatively thinly walled, flexible, soft tubes. To cause notable distension, it would mean the intestines are growing in length, wall thickness, diameter... they would literally constrict themselves. Simply because skeletal muscle and certain epithelial, smooth muscle (and other) cells in the gut both have IGF-1 receptors does NOT mean they react to the peptide's presence in the same way! And yes, acromegaly DOES mean internal organs grow as well. However, bear in mind these people have elevated GH levels 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for YEARS at a time. The first symptoms are NOT enlarged intestines or a large gut. Rather, cardiac hypertrophy, enlargement of vocal cords, enlargement of the tongue, etc. are all seen first.

    One of the main concerns I see people talking about is the smooth muscle that comprises the intestinal walls... in other words, you've got muscle tissue in there with a high concentration of receptors. Yes, intestinal smooth muscle has a high amount of IGF-1 receptors, and IGF both inhibits apoptosis (cell destruction) in this tissue as well as promotes growth. However, smooth muscle hypertrophy occurs at a MUCH slower rate than skeletal muscle (striated) or even cardiac muscle. There are certain conditions (Crohn's disease, etc.) where notable intestinal hypertrophy occurs (over years), and causes a huge number of problems. A distended gut is NOT one of the signs of said hypertrophy.

    Insulin, steroids, IGF, etc. can all increase the amount of visceral fat carried by the body, cause hypertrophy of the rectus abdominus, transverse abdominus, and obliques, cause GI upset (and therefore gas)... many BBing diets cause changes in gut flora and fauna (also causing gas)... these are ALL factors that cause that notable distension in top BBers. GH gut is a myth with NO scientific backing whatsoever. Not that it can't technically occur, but that it's responsible for the big guts you see out there. These guys would have chronically impacted bowels, severe cardiac issues, grossly enlarged larynxes, and a bunch of other problems stemming from GH/IGF-1 use before their growing intestines became a problem.
    Really interesting points you raise here, this is all new to me. I must admit relevant ignorance for the time being in relation to these areas. Out of curiosity where did you source this information?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mick86 View Post
    Really interesting points you raise here, this is all new to me. I must admit relevant ignorance for the time being in relation to these areas. Out of curiosity where did you source this information?
    I have to admit, most of this is relatively difficult to source- knowledge taken from working in the field (endocrinology clinical trials- though I probably should not divulge which company I work for, nor which drugs I've worked on). I have quite a few sources and relevant reads I can try to pull up from our intranet here, but I'm not sure how many articles and references can be viewable by the public. Still, I believe I have some interesting reads here that I should be able to share. Give me a bit, though... long day ahead of me.

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    mick86's Avatar
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    Any relevant info is much appreciated. Additionally here is a post I stumbled across on another board:

    GH Gut
    By: Liquidanny

    In recent years, a number of writers have observed that increasing numbers of world-class bodybuilders appear at contests with low body fat, etched abdominal muscles and protruding guts. We have named this phenomena "Protruding Gut Syndrome" or "PGS" for short. Most notable among its victims is none other than Mr. Olympia himself, Dorian Yates. One writer suggested that this was a side effect of Steroid use . Another, influential editor, states flatly that it is caused by the use of hGH or GH releasers. There is no research to support either explanation. Frankly, there is no proof that this protruding gut phenomena exists at all or that if it does it is anything new. Our eyes tell us that there is a problem that is manifest in some physique stars. The question is when did it first appear and is it restricted to Steroid and/or GH users.

    It seems to me that in the 1950's, before Steroids , hGH or GH releasers, there were competitors that exhibited the same "problem". Moreover, the problem is not by any means limited to "ergogenic" drug users. An observant individual will notice it in thin individuals of every stripe who have never trained with weights or even exercised to any significant degree. If I'm correct, and I believe I am, the cause is failure to develop the set of muscles that are tasked with the role of holding the internal organs within the abdominopelvic cavity. This may be exacerbated somewhat in obese or formerly obese individuals by intra-visceral fat deposits, organ enlargement and prolapse of the abdominopelvic visceral sheath. Nevertheless, in most cases it is a lack of muscle development. These muscles have no significant visibility externally. In other words, they are not "show" muscles. Because they don't show directly, many never train them. Moreover, some who do train them don't realize that they are doing so or the benefit they derive from doing so. As an example, in a training course sold by Frank Zane many years ago, titled "How to Develop Championship Legs and a Small Waistline" he describes a technique called the "Stomach Vacuum". This is the kind of "exercise" that helps develop the muscles of which I speak. Arnold describes the same technique in his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. It may not mean anything but neither Arnold nor Zane showed any evidence of protruding gut. By the way, before I go any further, it is worth pointing out that the most notable of these muscles are the internal obliques and the transverse abdominis but the Iliacus, Soleus and Intercostals are also involved. These muscles get a fair amount of stimulation from sit-ups but practically none from crunches. Over the past twenty years, the crunch has replaced the sit-up as the exercise of choice for developing the abdominals (technically rectus abdominis). This allows for another explanation of the increasing prevalence, if such exists, of PGS.

    The lack of specific exercise for the gut retaining muscles is not the whole explanation for the phenomena. If it were, everyone who doesn't exercise would manifest the problem. As we can see by observing the public at large, this is not the case. However prevalent the problem, it is not universal among those who do not exercise. This suggests that while lack of the proper exercise may contribute to the problem, it is not the cause. Normally, the visceral sheath combined with the natural tonus of the retaining muscles is sufficient to maintain the organs within the Abdominopelvic cavity. Something must stretch the visceral wall and overcome the natural tonus of the retaining muscles, enter the big dinner, the TV and the soft couch. After eating the stomach and intestines are full of food and are, therefore, heavier and occupy more space then when empty. If the meal is particularly large they may require more space then can be provided in the un-distended space they have available to them. If one sits and the knees bend beyond 90 degrees, the space is further restricted. If the shoulders roll forward, as in relaxation, still further reduction of space is imposed by the pressure of the diaphragm in its downward excursion. Leaning forward, as some drivers do and as some chairs encourage one to do, allows gravity to force the viscera forward, placing increased pressure on the visceral wall. Watching television with the chin held on the hands also places the body in this position of increased pressure on the visceral wall.

    For the body builder, or weight lifter, guzzling water or workout drinks and then squatting creates incredible inter-visceral force. In fact, almost any movement performed in a forward bent position and any movement performed wearing a lifting belt also increases the pressure to astronomical levels. In other words, there are a host of behaviors, some of them unique to weight trainers others not, that create the distention that precedes PGS. Add in the reduced natural tonus common to a more or less sedentary life style and we have all the explanation required.
    Last edited by mick86; 08-30-2010 at 09:24 AM. Reason: Improved formating

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belial10732 View Post
    The distended guts you see in certain BBers is NOT from intestinal enlargement. Good god. The amount of growth you'd have to see in those organs to distend one's gut would be phenomenal. Intestines are relatively thinly walled, flexible, soft tubes. To cause notable distension, it would mean the intestines are growing in length, wall thickness, diameter... they would literally constrict themselves. Simply because skeletal muscle and certain epithelial, smooth muscle (and other) cells in the gut both have IGF-1 receptors does NOT mean they react to the peptide's presence in the same way! And yes, acromegaly DOES mean internal organs grow as well. However, bear in mind these people have elevated GH levels 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for YEARS at a time. The first symptoms are NOT enlarged intestines or a large gut. Rather, cardiac hypertrophy, enlargement of vocal cords, enlargement of the tongue, etc. are all seen first.

    One of the main concerns I see people talking about is the smooth muscle that comprises the intestinal walls... in other words, you've got muscle tissue in there with a high concentration of receptors. Yes, intestinal smooth muscle has a high amount of IGF-1 receptors, and IGF both inhibits apoptosis (cell destruction) in this tissue as well as promotes growth. However, smooth muscle hypertrophy occurs at a MUCH slower rate than skeletal muscle (striated) or even cardiac muscle. There are certain conditions (Crohn's disease, etc.) where notable intestinal hypertrophy occurs (over years), and causes a huge number of problems. A distended gut is NOT one of the signs of said hypertrophy.

    Insulin, steroids, IGF, etc. can all increase the amount of visceral fat carried by the body, cause hypertrophy of the rectus abdominus, transverse abdominus, and obliques, cause GI upset (and therefore gas)... many BBing diets cause changes in gut flora and fauna (also causing gas)... these are ALL factors that cause that notable distension in top BBers. GH gut is a myth with NO scientific backing whatsoever. Not that it can't technically occur, but that it's responsible for the big guts you see out there. These guys would have chronically impacted bowels, severe cardiac issues, grossly enlarged larynxes, and a bunch of other problems stemming from GH/IGF-1 use before their growing intestines became a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by mick86 View Post
    Any relevant info is much appreciated. Additionally here is a post I stumbled across on another board:

    GH Gut
    By: Liquidanny

    In recent years, a number of writers have observed that increasing numbers of world-class bodybuilders appear at contests with low body fat, etched abdominal muscles and protruding guts. We have named this phenomena "Protruding Gut Syndrome" or "PGS" for short. Most notable among its victims is none other than Mr. Olympia himself, Dorian Yates. One writer suggested that this was a side effect of Steroid use . Another, influential editor, states flatly that it is caused by the use of hGH or GH releasers. There is no research to support either explanation. Frankly, there is no proof that this protruding gut phenomena exists at all or that if it does it is anything new. Our eyes tell us that there is a problem that is manifest in some physique stars. The question is when did it first appear and is it restricted to Steroid and/or GH users.

    It seems to me that in the 1950's, before Steroids , hGH or GH releasers, there were competitors that exhibited the same "problem". Moreover, the problem is not by any means limited to "ergogenic" drug users. An observant individual will notice it in thin individuals of every stripe who have never trained with weights or even exercised to any significant degree. If I'm correct, and I believe I am, the cause is failure to develop the set of muscles that are tasked with the role of holding the internal organs within the abdominopelvic cavity. This may be exacerbated somewhat in obese or formerly obese individuals by intra-visceral fat deposits, organ enlargement and prolapse of the abdominopelvic visceral sheath. Nevertheless, in most cases it is a lack of muscle development. These muscles have no significant visibility externally. In other words, they are not "show" muscles. Because they don't show directly, many never train them. Moreover, some who do train them don't realize that they are doing so or the benefit they derive from doing so. As an example, in a training course sold by Frank Zane many years ago, titled "How to Develop Championship Legs and a Small Waistline" he describes a technique called the "Stomach Vacuum". This is the kind of "exercise" that helps develop the muscles of which I speak. Arnold describes the same technique in his Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding. It may not mean anything but neither Arnold nor Zane showed any evidence of protruding gut. By the way, before I go any further, it is worth pointing out that the most notable of these muscles are the internal obliques and the transverse abdominis but the Iliacus, Soleus and Intercostals are also involved. These muscles get a fair amount of stimulation from sit-ups but practically none from crunches. Over the past twenty years, the crunch has replaced the sit-up as the exercise of choice for developing the abdominals (technically rectus abdominis). This allows for another explanation of the increasing prevalence, if such exists, of PGS.

    The lack of specific exercise for the gut retaining muscles is not the whole explanation for the phenomena. If it were, everyone who doesn't exercise would manifest the problem. As we can see by observing the public at large, this is not the case. However prevalent the problem, it is not universal among those who do not exercise. This suggests that while lack of the proper exercise may contribute to the problem, it is not the cause. Normally, the visceral sheath combined with the natural tonus of the retaining muscles is sufficient to maintain the organs within the Abdominopelvic cavity. Something must stretch the visceral wall and overcome the natural tonus of the retaining muscles, enter the big dinner, the TV and the soft couch. After eating the stomach and intestines are full of food and are, therefore, heavier and occupy more space then when empty. If the meal is particularly large they may require more space then can be provided in the un-distended space they have available to them. If one sits and the knees bend beyond 90 degrees, the space is further restricted. If the shoulders roll forward, as in relaxation, still further reduction of space is imposed by the pressure of the diaphragm in its downward excursion. Leaning forward, as some drivers do and as some chairs encourage one to do, allows gravity to force the viscera forward, placing increased pressure on the visceral wall. Watching television with the chin held on the hands also places the body in this position of increased pressure on the visceral wall.

    For the body builder, or weight lifter, guzzling water or workout drinks and then squatting creates incredible inter-visceral force. In fact, almost any movement performed in a forward bent position and any movement performed wearing a lifting belt also increases the pressure to astronomical levels. In other words, there are a host of behaviors, some of them unique to weight trainers others not, that create the distention that precedes PGS. Add in the reduced natural tonus common to a more or less sedentary life style and we have all the explanation required.
    I would say these 2 posts really hit it on the head for distended gut syndrome- it has more to do with copious amounts of food and a lifestyle that puts a lot of pressure on that region.
    Factor that in with insulins propensity to cause more visceral fat build up and you have a nice round gator belly, gas really exaggerates it and if you have lactose intolerance like I do you can damned near look pregnant and still see abdominal seperation.
    Guys who keep a tight midsection and are big superheavies are just a mystery to me.

  25. #25
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    Exclamation

    GH boosting peptides have far less potential to cause acromegaly and other HGH-related side effects because they only cause very brief, intense spikes of GH and, subsequently, IGF-1. Chronic IGF-1 elevation is what causes the side effects associated with HGH abuse.

    This is paraphrased from Datbtrue.
    Last edited by Bonaparte; 09-01-2010 at 08:37 PM.

  26. #26
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    Thanks for the continued contributions. I think this thread is becoming one of the more informative threads on this board when it comes to these peptides. I'll keep adding in when I have the time and find something useful.

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    j1pvt is offline New Member
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    Some very good info here.��

  28. #28
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    dude... you just bumped a 3 yr old thread....

    theres much better info out now...

  29. #29
    AndyNcl is offline New Member
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    And I've just bumped it near enough to 4 years
    After googling a lot I would say this is still the best info on the subject

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