Here goes.. My before pics (current as of 1/7)

Alright, so I'm pretty f*ckin far from where I wanna be but I guess if I want to get better I need to get some honest feedback from a unbiased community aka my trusted AR peeps not my boys or peeps at the gym who have a biased perspective cause I'm their boy. Some of you guys have been very knowledgeable and I respect your input so I'm hoping you may have some constructive criticism for me and suggestions to help me build a bigger and more well rounded physique. For those unfamiliar with my current cycle, I've been running 500mg test e for about 8 weeks (up from trt levels 200mg e10days), started Super Tren about 3 1/2 weeks ago (50 ace 100 enanthate) so the tren just started kicking in fully less than a week ago. Also, I just started injectable stanazol (Winny) 50mg eod 3 days ago so very much looking forward to the synergistic effect these compounds will have on my physique. I'm 34 about 215 prob 14-15% bf possibly a bit lower now but abs still suck unless I'm in the right lighting w/ a pump and even then there's a ton of fat covering them. My main goals for this cycle are to bring up bicep peaks, bring out delts, bring out abs and obliques, increase overall muscle separation, gain 5-7 lbs of muscle and lose another 7-10 pounds of fat. So for all intents and purposes I guess we'd call this a recomp cycle. I'm still in the very early stages of this cycle and very much looking forward to see how far I can take this. This is the first cycle I've run in over 5 years. Fell out of the game all together for reasons I won't get into right now (variety of things at once) and about 7 months ago got on trt levels of test. Been lifting hard since then and have made some decent gains on trt levels of test. Then I decided I really wanna do this right and see how far I can take my physique and possibly compete at an amateur level (depending on how well I respond to the drugs and how I look once I'm more developed)_ so I upped the test and started adding compounds in. I do have aspirations to compete (yes I know I have a long way to go!) but the point is that's where my head's at so please consider that when giving suqqestions. I will do what I need to do to make this happen. Any feedback on whether or not you think my goals are realistic, things you may add or increase, training suggestions or diet suggestions would be greatly appreciated fellas... or ladies.

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Can't figure out why the hell they're sideways lol sorry guys I'm about the least tech savvy mf you'll ever come across! And pics were actually taken about 30 mins apart first place was the world's worst lit Ross dressing room lol. Dresing rooms usually have sick lighting so after the gym walked right into Ross dripping sweat grabbed a few shirts of the rack and marched my ass right into the dressing room to take a few pics and go figure it's worse lighting than at my house which is where the second pic was taken once back home!..!

You got a great starting point, look forward to the progress updates!

I second that, great starting point

Be following your progress.

Thanks fellas. I know it's hard to give specific advise w/out knowing my entire regimen like diet, training, and lifestyle to name a few, but assuming those things are in check, do you think my goals are realistic?

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

Thanks fellas. I know it's hard to give specific advise w/out knowing my entire regimen like diet, training, and lifestyle to name a few, but assuming those things are in check, do you think my goals are realistic?

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If you’re willing to put in the work in the weight room and most importantly the Kitchen then I don’t see why not.

Ok, so let me see if I can get some more people involved by asking some direct questions cause I'd like to hear from various peoples' personal experience.
What's the most muscle (not weight) one of you guys has gained in a cycle? (let's say 6 months)
What's the most fat one of you has lost in a cycle?
And what was the overall most successful cycle results you've had in terms of muscle gain and fat loss?

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

Ok, so let me see if I can get some more people involved by asking some direct questions cause I'd like to hear from various peoples' personal experience.
What's the most muscle (not weight) one of you guys has gained in a cycle? (let's say 6 months)
What's the most fat one of you has lost in a cycle?
And what was the overall most successful cycle results you've had in terms of muscle gain and fat loss?

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Those are all questions that need context.


If you have been training and dieting and are close to your genetic max. A person may only put on a couple pounds of muscle per cycle. On the flip of that I’ve put on 20lbs or muscle and probably lost 30lbs of fat, coming off injury. But I had lost a ton of my previous gains and was nowhere near my genetic max and was pretty fat. When I was competing, I was only putting on a few pounds of muscle per year. As I was close to being maxed out and was consistently training.

I don’t think your goals outlined above are unreachable. I don’t know if that helps you or not.

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Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Those are all questions that need context.


If you have been training and dieting and are close to your genetic max. A person may only put on a couple pounds of muscle per cycle. On the flip of that I’ve put on 20lbs or muscle and probably lost 30lbs of fat, coming off injury. But I had lost a ton of my previous gains and was nowhere near my genetic max and was pretty fat. When I was competing, I was only putting on a few pounds of muscle per year. As I was close to being maxed out and was consistently training.

I don’t think your goals outlined above are unreachable. I don’t know if that helps you or not.

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Yes well said thanks bro

if your ultimate goal is to compete, then I'd start adding in other growth factors now (as these take time to work), like HGH, IGF, insulin. They along with properly stack AAS cycles and protocols , along with being on TRT (i.e, blasting and cruising) will take you to the next level and help you to better be able to hang on to and acclimate to more size.

I've put on about 60+ pounds of muscle over the years. I remember years back it was more difficult to hang on to the size I gained after a cycle (even though I was on TRT). not that I'd lose the size per se, just that my blood pressure and things like that were elevated and I got tired easier. my body just did not want to acclimate to the weight gains I was putting on. however being a lot more aggressive over the past couple years with adding in other Growth factors my body seemed to acclimate and take on more size much more easily.

just something to consider if you want to take competing seriously.

This guy knows his stuff

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

if your ultimate goal is to compete, then I'd start adding in other growth factors now (as these take time to work), like HGH, IGF, insulin. They along with properly stack AAS cycles and protocols , along with being on TRT (i.e, blasting and cruising) will take you to the next level and help you to better be able to hang on to and acclimate to more size.

I've put on about 60+ pounds of muscle over the years. I remember years back it was more difficult to hang on to the size I gained after a cycle (even though I was on TRT). not that I'd lose the size per se, just that my blood pressure and things like that were elevated and I got tired easier. my body just did not want to acclimate to the weight gains I was putting on. however being a lot more aggressive over the past couple years with adding in other Growth factors my body seemed to acclimate and take on more size much more easily.

just something to consider if you want to take competing seriously.

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Alright brotha thanks for you input. I honestly know very little about insulin and IGF-1 (I know IGF is increased when on Tren but very little about running the compound itself). HGH I know a little more about, but I've honestly been waiting on that as well as I've heard that it's a very subtle effect and unless you take it in high doses it doesn't do much, and if one DOES take it in higher dosages it wreaks havoc on your joints... You don't think I have a ton of room to grow before pulling out those stops? I def plan on getting on them at some point, but wanted to use them once I hit a bit of a plateau with the gear (which I imagine I still have a while before that happens)... I know I'll need them if I wanna compete since, most, if not all competitors are on growth and slin. Now let me ask you this though, when you say they helped you keep gains between cycles do you mean you ran them in between cycles for that purpose or stayed on em year round?

As per your suggestion I may add in growth now and worry about slin and IGF-1 a little further down the road...In your experience, what are the main benefits from growth? And what dosage do you recommend I start at?

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

Alright brotha thanks for you input. I honestly know very little about insulin and IGF-1 (I know IGF is increased when on Tren but very little about running the compound itself). HGH I know a little more about, but I've honestly been waiting on that as well as I've heard that it's a very subtle effect and unless you take it in high doses it doesn't do much, and if one DOES take it in higher dosages it wreaks havoc on your joints... You don't think I have a ton of room to grow before pulling out those stops? I def plan on getting on them at some point, but wanted to use them once I hit a bit of a plateau with the gear (which I imagine I still have a while before that happens)... I know I'll need them if I wanna compete since, most, if not all competitors are on growth and slin. Now let me ask you this though, when you say they helped you keep gains between cycles do you mean you ran them in between cycles for that purpose or stayed on em year round?

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IMO , growth factors are not something you work your way up to and start once you hit a plateau. don't get me wrong, that sounds like the most reasonable approach, BUT growth factors are not plateau busters. They are slow steady gainers that work over long periods of time (unlike steroids) and they help build actual tissue (unlike steroids that mainly hypertrophy existing tissue). This new tissue built over time is 'permanent'. thats why your able to acclimate to new size gains easier with growth factors. The sooner your able to start building new tissue the better (i.e., if bodybuilding is a life goal), and then the Anabolics help to 'blow up' and increase the size of this new tissue. using JUST AAS is mainly helping you increase the size of existing tissue, but if you have growth factors in there as well that are growing new tissue then the AAS helps grow this new tissue as well.
this is how bodybuilders of today are able to hold such massive size and still be ripped.

regarding your question underlined.. they help you maintain size because of what I stated above, your growing new tissue (not just increasing size of existing tissue). but you have to stay on them more long term, yes all year, or at least a majority of the year.

my opinion (and a lot of guys will probably disagree and say that I'm extreme) -- the earlier you can start implementing growth factors into your bodybuilding protocol the better physique you'll have later on . your basically investing in your future physique . if you wait until later in life or wait till you hit some major plateau and start taking them then, they will not give you the result you want immediately cause they take time. by taking them now, when you run AAS cycles 3 years from now, those cycles are going to help you grow all the new tissue you built over the years by taking growth factors now .
hope that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

As per your suggestion I may add in growth now and worry about slin and IGF-1 a little further down the road...In your experience, what are the main benefits from growth? And what dosage do you recommend I start at?

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HGH combined with insulin will dramatically increase IGF production by the liver , so you don't need to take exogenous IGF your getting a huge increase naturally.

benefits of HGH - I mentioned some in my last post. HGH makes it more difficult for your body to store body fat (also helps oxidize and burn fat), it increases your appetite, and it has the ability to stimulate growth and activate dormant muscle satellite cells (which will lead to new muscle growth over time)..
its funny , there are guys that will run HGH for 6 months and at the end of that 6 months say "well it was not really worth it, I didn't get a ton of gains" ,, then 4 months later they blast a heavy AAS cycle and get massive gains and say "this is the best cycle ever" ,, BUT its not because of the cycle, its a delayed effect from the HGH they were taking the 6 months prior. They activated a whole host of new tissue on the HGH, but it did not become realized until later on when they get on cycle and 'blow up' all that new tissue.


as far as dosages. I recommend running HGH on top of other GH releasing peptides. this way you get an amplified effect and higher blood serum levels of GH without having to take super high dosages.
example - take GHRP-6 and stimulate a natural spike in GH. lets say this brings your blood levels up from 1 to 10 . Then when you blood levels are already elevated you pin 4iu of exogenous HGH and that brings your levels from 10 to 30 (instead of from 1 to 20).
by using these techniques you can get by with running less HGH.. plus your natty HGH release is the most powerful form of HGH.

I personally run MK677 morning and night , year round, on top of exogenous HGH. so I only need to run 4iu of HGH per day. this is just an estimate and have nothing to back this up, but I believe with my method above I'm getting close to something like using 8iu of HGH micro dosed throughout the day , but I'm only having to use 4iu to get same results.

note: and of course I use inulin with my HGH protocol , as these two are synergistic and will provide a massive increase in IGF1. as well help control my blood sugar levels, and force way more nutrients into the muscle cells to stimulate growth (as well as help build and mature new cells)

That's a great answer man. I've actually heard that before -that GH allows you to grow fresh satellite muscle cells as opposed to increasing the size of the existing muscle cells....I can see the logic behind what youre saying, cause I've already made the decision to do this. I might as well get started sooner rather than later. I'm already 34 so not exactly a young buck compared to a lot of these cats competing lol.

one more point -

If I had a son that wanted to be a competitive bodybuilder and lets say he hits is genetic wall at age 25 . well instead of going right into jumping on AAS , like most guys do , I'd have him delay his AAS use and start with running growth factors first . as these are way less harsh on the body and will be an investment into his future physique .

most guys do just the opposite, they start with Steroid use and then later on down the road the AAS use is not yielding great results and so they then try HGH and other growth factors.

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

HGH combined with insulin will dramatically increase IGF production by the liver , so you don't need to take exogenous IGF your getting a huge increase naturally.

benefits of HGH - I mentioned some in my last post. HGH makes it more difficult for your body to store body fat (also helps oxidize and burn fat), it increases your appetite, and it has the ability to stimulate growth and activate dormant muscle satellite cells (which will lead to new muscle growth over time)..
its funny , there are guys that will run HGH for 6 months and at the end of that 6 months say "well it was not really worth it, I didn't get a ton of gains" ,, then 4 months later they blast a heavy AAS cycle and get massive gains and say "this is the best cycle ever" ,, BUT its not because of the cycle, its a delayed effect from the HGH they were taking the 6 months prior. They activated a whole host of new tissue on the HGH, but it did not become realized until later on when they get on cycle and 'blow up' all that new tissue.


as far as dosages. I recommend running HGH on top of other GH releasing peptides. this way you get an amplified effect and higher blood serum levels of GH without having to take super high dosages.
example - take GHRP-6 and stimulate a natural spike in GH. lets say this brings your blood levels up from 1 to 10 . Then when you blood levels are already elevated you pin 4iu of exogenous HGH and that brings your levels from 10 to 30 (instead of from 1 to 20).
by using these techniques you can get by with running less HGH.. plus your natty HGH release is the most powerful form of HGH.

I personally run MK677 morning and night , year round, on top of exogenous HGH. so I only need to run 4iu of HGH per day. this is just an estimate and have nothing to back this up, but I believe with my method above I'm getting close to something like using 8iu of HGH micro dosed throughout the day , but I'm only having to use 4iu to get same results.

note: and of course I use inulin with my HGH protocol , as these two are synergistic and will provide a massive increase in IGF1. as well help control my blood sugar levels, and force way more nutrients into the muscle cells to stimulate growth (as well as help build and mature new cells)

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Ho ... lee... shit lol ! that's EXACTLY on point man I'm impressed. I've never heard anyone say that, how did you surmise that?? From personal exp or you've seen this happen? My boy's attributing these latest gains from this new lab we're using (which by all means is great sh*t) but THAT makes more sense cause homeboy looks ridiculous and he just got off hgh a couple months ago.. Wow dude, mind....blown. lol

(I should add that he didn't see much change while running hgh for approx 6 months, but a month and a half later runs a cycle and BOOM f*ckin sick gains)

That's a smart approach with using sectretagogues to supplement GH dosages as well. That probably helps mitigate some of the sides that come from running GH at high dosages bc apparently the joint sides start at around 6 ius / day..

Ok got some updated pics. These were taken last night..So 8 days from the first pics.. I am now about 5 weeks in now. 2 of the 3 compounds are attached to enanthate (test and tren) so really only been making serious gains for the last 2 weeks. This is the exciting time. I added Winny about 10 days ago as well...running 1mg Adex eod. Down about 4 pounds since I started and way stronger and leaner as well. I'm gonna report the numbers as well but for right now just a visual update. Thanks for following my progress and for any feedback you throw my way ppl!

Attachment 171603 Attachment 171601

How the f*ck do I get rid of those thumbnails !?

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Originally Posted by Clove1234

This guy knows his stuff

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No shit, right? I read his posts and think, "I'm a fucking idiot"

Here's an update on current cycle. I put this in a new thread but now that I came across the original again I want to have a continuation of this one. Again, I am not tech savy at all so even just posting pics is a challenge for me lol.
I need some feed back from you guys. I've made some nice gains but feel like I could be doing better. Do you guys feel I'm progressing at a decent rate or should things be moving at a faster pace? Here are cycle stats so far (keep in mind this is about a week old now cause I posted in a new thread not knowing this one was still around)... I'm about to add in 4 ius of growth as well and going to rotating gear so a month from now there should be even more noticeable gains..

Ok current compounds - Test E 125mg eod, Tren Ace 50mg/ Tren E 100mg eod, Winny 25mg ed, Mast 80mg ed (just started the Mast a week ago). Great addition btw!

Before cycle I was 215 approx 16-17% bf. Currently I am 223 approx 14% bf (these numbers are from a hand held monitor so not very reliable)

Summary - I've put on about 8 pounds of muscle since I started and lost however many pounds of fat that is (math is not my strong suite lol maybe someone can help me out with that). Composition has notably improved and strength is significantly increased as well.

I've also started doing cardio 3 times a week cause I'm really trying to get abbed up clean and get those last layers of fat off my abs...They're decently built but can't see em for shit lol. Let me know if you have any comments, concerns, etc..... Thanks!

A month and a half ago - Attachment 171888Attachment 171889

Current as of a few days ago - Attachment 171890Attachment 171891

Alright I wasn't gonna put this up but I want the guys new to lifting to see what is possible to achieve inside a year if one dedicates themselves to this sh*t. I don't even know my stats in this picture, all I know is that I was a skinny fat f*ck lol and was weak as sh*t. Let's say about 210 with 20% body fat... That's prob ballpark.. Anyway, this is what my physique looked like 10 months ago before I got on TRT... I've only been on an actual cycle for 2 1/2 months. Before that was just cruising ar 250mg Test E / week.

So this pic is before TRT... The last pic is gains made since on actual cycle just to clarify.

Attachment 171892

well your clearly putting the hours in the gym as the muscle fullness and size is progressing well. IMO, size and fullness is really what you should be after at this stage. I understand your recomping right now which is fine. BUT don't get tempted into wanting to get super lean and shredded yet, you'll just end up taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back. you need a solid large chunk of clay in which to sculpt from.
and your not quite there imo. to be blunt, if you got off cycle and you shredded down to say 8% body fat, when you wear a T-shirt no one is going to think your a body builder. sure when you take the shirt off and your shredded everyone will know you work out BUT, I'm guessing your overall goal is more size and muscle mass then then that.

So having said that. my thoughts are this. Spend a solid 12 months trying to add more muscle and more overall size. Do maybe 3 mini cuts along the way just to improve insulin sensitivity (but make them short 4 week is all). Do not worry about being super lean during this phase and trying to have a 6 pack. in fact you'll want to spend this whole year developing your abs as well, that way when you go to shred down reveal your abs they will be fully developed and really pop (right now they are under developed).
its good that your on TRT. you can spend the whole year doing compound rotation and really push for growth. basically you'll run AAS 8 or so weeks on, then 4 weeks on TRT, then 8 weeks on, then 4 weeks on TRT. Rotating different compounds in through out the year. This will keep you 'sensitized', basically as you desensitize to say Nandro after about 8 weeks, you'll drop it and rotate in say Ment for example.
you'll stack multiple compounds from class 1 and class 2 steriods,, inter changing them out along this whole process.

^ you can PM me for more details as to how to do this, what compounds, dosages, etc.. as this is a more advanced protocol and way of doing things and may not be best laid out in detail on a public forum

for this one year spent on gaining size I'd highly recommend running HGH and Insulin. you'll build a lot of new tissue over the year and then when you go to cut this 'new tissue' will be there ready to pop.. when you go to cut, and you run a heavy cycle of AAS on a cut, with say a high carb, med protein low fat deficit diet, this new tissue will respond to the AAS and really fill out and as the fat falls off you'll look even bigger and fuller. you'll have more tissue to fill out.

Training , I'd focus on growth orientated training and use progressive overload through out the year. I'd schedule out several different periodized training blocks with different phases. you'll want some phases focused on mechanical tension, other phases focuses on volume and metabolite, and an occasion short training phase focused on strength,.. then you'll want phases where you really focus on frequency and volume and drop the intensity.. deload, then do a phase where you focus on intensity and load and not as much frequency.
you can actually lay this all out in a year long Macro cycle, that consists of say four 3 month long meso cycles, with several micro cycles using the different 'phases' like I describe above.

Diet is going to depend on what phase of training your in. If your in a phase where your doing a lot of metabolite and volume training then your carb intake is going to be super high.. if your in a strength phase or mechanical tension phase then protein will need to be higher.
you can "periodize" your diet along with your training. but for growth you'll want to be in a surplus all year other then those short mini cuts.

I'd recommend using Metformin and GDAs during this whole process.


ABS- thats your weakest body part. I would do cell swelling work for abs at the end of every workout (on top of your normal ab training).
how you do this is pick an exercise and a weight that you can maybe do 30 reps with (eg., cable rope crunches) and do 100 reps. sure you may fail at rep 30 or so, but just rest 5 seconds and keep going, rest, keep going, rest keep going, until you hit 100 reps.
you will have a ton of blood and severe pump in your abs.

V-taper - you'll look leaner and thinner with a more pronounced v taper. start implementing some heavy compound lifts for the upper body. work up to 225lbs for 5 reps of strict seated over head press. Work on some heavy incline bench press, say 315 for 5. Power shrugs in a rack, super heavy, say 5+ plates per side for 5 reps. snatch grip Rack pulls, same thing heavy for 5 reps. heavy bent over rows for 5.

the theme here is adding in some heavy upper body compounds will help develop overall thickness in your upper body.. use those along with a shit ton of different side lateral raises and lat work. and your V taper will start to come together.

arms - sorry bro your never going to have great biceps because your insertion point is so high. work that outer head to develop the appearance of height (so a lot of hammer curls) , but most your arm size is going to be coming from your triceps as they are a stronger body part for you. heavy JM presses and close grip bench press if your elbows can handle it will put size on your tris


anyhow those are some of my thoughts. keep getting after it , from the pics is clearly apparent your putting the work in

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

well your clearly putting the hours in the gym as the muscle fullness and size is progressing well. IMO, size and fullness is really what you should be after at this stage.For sure I understand your recomping right now which is fine. Exactly glad you remembered that. I was trying to get a decent base and composition to build from. Certainly don't consider myself big lol. This time has been spent just laying the ground work. BUT don't get tempted into wanting to get super lean and shredded yet, you'll just end up taking 1 step forward and 2 steps back.See this is clearly where your experience shines. I've almost fallen victim to this several times when I've gotten frustrated.. Feeling like I wasn't progressing fast enough either in size gain or fat loss..So I had to have discipline and STICK to the recomp.. ( you need a solid large chunk of clay in which to sculpt from.
and your not quite there imo.No worries I'm under no illusions lol to be blunt, if you got off cycle No why would I even wanna do that lmao!?and you shredded down to say 8% body fat, when you wear a T-shirt no one is going to think your a body builder. sure when you take the shirt off and your shredded everyone will know you work out BUT, I'm guessing your overall goal is more size and muscle mass then then that.Absolutely

So having said that. my thoughts are this. Spend a solid 12 months trying to add more muscle and more overall size.I'm actually finishing up my recomp in a few weeks.. I was gonna try to get leaner so my abs show more before bulking but if they're underdeveloped then there's no point in leaning out.. I'm just going to roll right into a bulking phase with some "wet" compounds and still eat clean so my BF doesn't go up too much but build some real size....abs included lol Do maybe 3 mini cuts along the way just to improve insulin sensitivity (but make them short 4 week is all). Ok Do not worry about being super lean during this phase and trying to have a 6 pack. in fact you'll want to spend this whole year developing your abs as well, that way when you go to shred down reveal your abs they will be fully developed and really pop (right now they are under developed).Goctha. Thanks for the truth and yes it is tempting to go for aesthetics right away but great point in really building the mass before worrying about being lean.
its good that your on TRT. you can spend the whole year doing compound rotation and really push for growth. basically you'll run AAS 8 or so weeks on, then 4 weeks on TRT, then 8 weeks on, then 4 weeks on TRT.I was honestly planning on basically staying on sh*t steady but rotating compounds. Wasn't gonna just ride on just TRT test for a while... At least until I've accomplished my initial goal and then maybe pulling it back a bit, giving my body a break, and then going in hard again.. (Even now though my doses aren't even high.. I'm on 4 compounds but super low doses.. You think I shouldn't do that for more than 8 weeks at a time? Rotating different compounds in through out the year. This will keep you 'sensitized', basically as you desensitize to say Nandro after about 8 weeks, you'll drop it and rotate in say Ment for example. Is this true for all compounds? We desensitize after approx 8 weeks...?
you'll stack multiple compounds from class 1 and class 2 steriods,, inter changing them out along this whole process. Class 1 and class 2..? I'll do some research on this. I'm familiar with the different types like 19 nor, dht and progestin and how they interact but honestly don't know much about the classes...

^ you can PM me for more details as to how to do this, what compounds, dosages, etc.. as this is a more advanced protocol and way of doing things and may not be best laid out in detail on a public forum You got it bro. Thank you. You've been solid af to have in my corner

for this one year spent on gaining size I'd highly recommend running HGH and Insulin. you'll build a lot of new tissue over the year and then when you go to cut this 'new tissue' will be there ready to pop.. when you go to cut, and you run a heavy cycle of AAS on a cut, with say a high carb, med protein low fat deficit diet, this new tissue will respond to the AAS and really fill out and as the fat falls off you'll look even bigger and fuller. you'll have more tissue to fill out. Hell yeah you make that sound awesome dude lol. I actually just ordered 400ius of growth to get that started. The insulin I'm still a little nervous about I really need to integrate the protocols you've shown me because that's something I can't afford to f*ck up.

Training , I'd focus on growth orientated training and use progressive overload through out the year. I'd schedule out several different periodized training blocks with different phases. you'll want some phases focused on mechanical tension, other phases focuses on volume and metabolite, and an occasion short training phase focused on strength,.. then you'll want phases where you really focus on frequency and volume and drop the intensity.. deload, then do a phase where you focus on intensity and load and not as much frequency.
you can actually lay this all out in a year long Macro cycle, that consists of say four 3 month long meso cycles, with several micro cycles using the different 'phases' like I describe above. Great info man

Diet is going to depend on what phase of training your in. If your in a phase where your doing a lot of metabolite Need to research metabolite training... Currently do a lot of volume training.and volume training then your carb intake is going to be super high.. if your in a strength phase or mechanical tension Is this going really heavy...Like doing negatives..?phase then protein will need to be higher.
you can "periodize" your diet along with your training. but for growth you'll want to be in a surplus all year other then those short mini cuts.

I'd recommend using Metformin and GDAs during this whole process. I can get metformin no prob...what's GDAs?


ABS- thats your weakest body part. I would do cell swelling work for abs at the end of every workout (on top of your normal ab training).
how you do this is pick an exercise and a weight that you can maybe do 30 reps with (eg., cable rope crunches) and do 100 reps. sure you may fail at rep 30 or so, but just rest 5 seconds and keep going, rest, keep going, rest keep going, until you hit 100 reps.
you will have a ton of blood and severe pump in your abs. Beautiful. I started a thread for ideas to build up abs. This is great thanks bro going to destroy abs tonight lol...Oh btw,
I do abs usually every time I hit the gym which is usaully 4 times a week. Do you think that's too much? I'm trying to really push growth there. I notice for myself I grow more when I hit a muscle more times per week so applied same concept to abs...

V-taper - you'll look leaner and thinner with a more pronounced v taper. start implementing some heavy compound lifts for the upper body. work up to 225lbs for 5 reps of strict seated over head press. Work on some heavy incline bench press, say 315 for 5. Power shrugs in a rack, super heavy, say 5+ plates per side for 5 reps. snatch grip Rack pulls, same thing heavy for 5 reps. heavy bent over rows for 5.

the theme here is adding in some heavy upper body compounds will help develop overall thickness in your upper body.. use those along with a shit ton of different side lateral raises and lat work. and your V taper will start to come together. Got it

arms - sorry bro your never going to have great biceps because your insertion point is so high. work that outer head to develop the appearance of height (so a lot of hammer curls) , but most your arm size is going to be coming from your triceps as they are a stronger body part for you. heavy JM presses and close grip bench press if your elbows can handle it will put size on your tris Not gonna lie this one hurt a little lol. Yeah guess bi's are never gonna be a strong point but I'm just gonna hammer curl the sh*t out of them and just keep em growing. You're 100% right about my Tris they're one of my strongest muscle group I've really had to prioritize bi's to get them up to par but genetically I guess tris will always be better... However, with some growth factors maybe I can get those bi's to peak nicely!


anyhow those are some of my thoughts. keep getting after it , from the pics is clearly apparent your putting the work in

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[B]Thank you my dude I appreciate you acknowledging that. That;s the beauty in this life style, if you're jacked then everyone knows you had to get there through blood sweat and tears... No short cuts. Yeah, people may say steroids are a shortcut but what we're building can't be reached naturally anyway so we're maybe streamlining the approach and being more efficient but the hard work still has to be put in! It's cool that you know that cause clearly you've had to put in the work to get to where you're at so you've already been where I'm at and I'm blessed to have your experience available to me as I progress along the way!.

Well first off, thank you for solid feedback man you gave me a lot to think about there. Hearing this stuff from a dude with your knowledge is invaluable and I don't take it for granted. Please refer to your post as I commented or questioned parts of it....

just real quick I'll respond to your question about class 1 and class 2 steroids.. I copied this from another post of mine.


As far as rotating compounds is concerned. this can get somewhat complicated but I'll explain a bit.

we have two classes of steroids , class 1 compounds and class 2 compounds . class 1 steroids work their magic by binding to androgen receptors and communicating directly with the cell, class 2 compounds work their magic by working on cells outside of androgen receptor binding (for example by simply increasing protein syntheses, nitrogen retention etc.). then we have some steroids that are both a class 1 and a class 2, like Testosterone and Tren.

then we have the derivative classes of steroids . there are three main classes that steroids are derived from (the cholesterol hormone molecule they are built from) . Testosterone derived, DHT derived, and Progesterone derived.

NOW.. any one steroid can be any one of these classes. you can have a DHT derived steroid that is a class 1 steroid, and you can also have a DHT steroid that is a class 2 steroid (so they are very different even though they are from the same derived class).. so you see there can be many different combinations here.

we also have estrogenic steroids, and non estrogenic steroids. some steroids convert to estrogen through the aromatase enzyme , others don't aromatize at all yet still raise estrogen. some steroids don't raise estrogen at all while others actually lower estrogen. Some steroids convert to DHT very rapidly , while others don't convert to DHT at all. Some steroids raise prolactin and others don't effect prolactin at all. etc etc..

^^. my point with all this is rotating compounds in and out is really dependent on the mechanisms of actions of the different steroids and how they work in the body. you need to know this to know what and how to rotate. if you ran class 1 steroids for 8 weeks then at week 9 you may switch over to class 2, if you ran DHTs you may stack those with class 1 or class 2 or vice versa then switch over to a progesterone based steroid.

so the 8 week blast plan is NOT that we completely 'de-sensitize' to a compound after 8 weeks , its just that we want to move on to a 'new' mechanism of action from the steroid to keep pushing gains.. just like in training, after 8 weeks or so we may want to up the poundage or introduce a new exercise to keep the body having to adapt.

if compound A is working on the androgen receptors for 8 weeks , we can then rotate a new compound in like a class 2 that works outside the androgen receptor and simply increases protein synthesis and nitrogen retention. its a way of adding a new stimulus , and to keep from de-sensitizing

I did some research and came across this post from another site...Would you agree with this...? -

Anabolic Steroids achieve their effects on hypertrophy through different mechanisms,and as such are classified into two different categories,class-I and class-II compounds.I will explain which ones work through which pathway,and how to effectively combine opposing groups to maximize potentiation of one another for explosive growth....

Class-I-These are steroids who's primary influence on anabolism is achieved through aggressive binding and activation of the androgen receptor...Examples of potent class-I's are-Deca-durabolin,primobolan,equipoise,oxandrolone...

Class-II-These are compounds with potent activity independent of A/R binding/activation,and their activity has been monitored in neuron's,microsomes,mitochondria,etc...Examples of potent class-II's are-Anadrol,Dianabol,winstrol,Fluoxymesterone...

Then we have steroids that are potent combination steroids all by themselves(meaning they display influences on growth through both class-I and II activity,and thus are very effective as'stand-alone'anabolic agents as well as forming the 'base' of most steroid stacks)....Two compounds possess this unique characteristic-Trenbelone and Testosterone.Either of these two steroids should form the base of most users stacks,as the cover both A/R and non-A/R mediated mechanisms,and adding to them with either a class-I or II will only potentiate that particular mechanism towards muscular hypertrophy...

Now that we're aware of which compounds work through which mechanism,how do we combine them effectively to maximize each one's potential?As explained above,Testosterone and trenbelone should form the base of any serious steroid stack,but great effects can be had by combining single mechanism steroids from opposing classes....Examples of this type of synergistic combining could be(but are not limited to)

*CUTTING*
Winstrol & Equipoise
Winstrol & Primobolan
Fluoxymesterone & Equipoise or Primobolan

*BULKING*
Deca & Dianabol
Anadrol & Equipoise or Primobolan
Winstrol & deca

And of course,using test or tren as the base compound for either cutting or bulking will only make results that much more explosive.If using test for cutting,an anti-aromitase should be incorporated...

The only part that doesn't make sense is that it's saying Nandolone works through aggressive binding to the AR receptor when I thought Nandrolone wasn't androgenic but more so just anabolic....

So based on my knowledge of steroids.... this is the stack I was planning on jumping on to go into the bulking phase of my journey. Now that recomp is coming to an end, I was planning on running some "wet" compounds as you had suggested...

Maybe you can give me some insight into if these compounds are appropriate to run together based on their class...

Nandolone 600mg/week, Test is coming up to 750mg/week, keeping Winny in to maintain separation at just 25mg/day, and dropping Tren and Mast....Although I really feel like I'm giving up a piece of my heart by letting the Tren go lol. I'm thinking if I drop it for a couple months and then jump back on I'll be more "sensitized" to it like you mentioned and I'll respond better to it cause I feel like gains from Tren have plateaued... Also thinking that since Tren is a form of Nandrolone, if I switch to another Nandrolone then I'll won't lose any of the gains I've made on Tren.. (Although I'm guessing I'll lose some strength..) What do you think about this man?

Subscribing to this thread.
Honest opinion - you may not be very close to compete soon.. but it does not even matter. It will happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but if you keep going you can do it.
Keeping on track with everything, I think taking GearHeaded advices in 2 years you will be high contest quality. Just take care for your health and for injuries !
I wish you all the best !

yes I agree with the quote in post 30.

to answer your question , the reason Deca is not considered 'androgenic' and is an anabolic (even though its a class 1 and binds to androgen receptors) is because it converts to DHB in the body and does NOT convert to DHT (like test does). DHB is not androgenic at all l, DHT is super androgenic.

just because a compound may have a binding affinity to androgen receptors does not make it necessarily highly androgenic in its characteristics. again , being deca converts to DHB instead of DHT it does not display androgenic characteristics .

look at primo as another example ,, its a class 1 that is more anabolic and has a low androgenic rating, yet it works via androgen receptor binding. Primo is very low androgenic and is even a good compound for women to take. it does not display androgenic characteristics, probably because its a DHB derived steroid (even though most people confuse it with a DHT based steroid)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

So based on my knowledge of steroids.... this is the stack I was planning on jumping on to go into the bulking phase of my journey. Now that recomp is coming to an end, I was planning on running some "wet" compounds as you had suggested...

Maybe you can give me some insight into if these compounds are appropriate to run together based on their class...

Nandolone 600mg/week, Test is coming up to 750mg/week, keeping Winny in to maintain separation at just 25mg/day, and dropping Tren and Mast....Although I really feel like I'm giving up a piece of my heart by letting the Tren go lol. I'm thinking if I drop it for a couple months and then jump back on I'll be more "sensitized" to it like you mentioned and I'll respond better to it cause I feel like gains from Tren have plateaued... Also thinking that since Tren is a form of Nandrolone, if I switch to another Nandrolone then I'll won't lose any of the gains I've made on Tren.. (Although I'm guessing I'll lose some strength..) What do you think about this man?

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I absolutely agree with going from a recomp into a 'wet' bulk.

Deca or NPP (or preferably both, I always use NPP to front load any deca cycle I do) at the 600+ range with high dose of Test is a good start.
I'd do something like run NPP for the first 5 weeks at 100mg EOD then run Deca at 500mg per week for weeks 1-10 (or just run NPP at 600 with no deca . . . depends on what your doing with the deca, sometimes guys are cruising with it)
Running winny with this is not a bad idea, as it has a strong affinity to SHBG and will thus free up more test and make the deca and test both work better. HOWEVER , you can accomplish this with a lot less toxic compound then winny , you can use Proviron or a small dose of Mast, AND then you can add something like Dbol to your Test/Deca cycle. I don't advise Dbol and Winny together. but proviron or mast with Dbol is fine. Run the Dbol the whole 8-10 weeks of your blast. start at a high dose and taper down. you'll have a new found appreciation for Dbol if you run it properly . these short 4 weeks runs of Dbol are bullshit and the gains are pissed away. dbol can really help add size but you have to give it a chance to do its thing over time. its a great nutrient partitioner and its 'wet' in more then the estrogenic sense, it really helps fill out inter cellular water retention (which is a good thing for growth because when more glycogen and water are being forced into the muscle cells then so is more amino acids and nutrients)

Thats going to be a good 'wet' clean bulk and you'll put on lots of size.. when done with that take some time off and go to your cruise (pm me for cruise recommendations, as I don't like giving that out in public view)

yes take a break and get off the Tren train for just a short time. BUT , when your done with your short cruise, you'll jump right back on Tren, only this time you'll stack Tren with some bulkers instead of the cutters you been running it with. Tren stacked with bulkers is going to open up a whole new love affair for you with Tren, its a whole different animal. Stack Tren with some Anadrol and perhaps a low dose of Ment. keep your AI's limited, but run some Nolva and Caber if need be. Up your calories big time on this bulk. the Tren with bulkers like that and a higher amount of estrogen in the body is going to illicit a ton of natty IGF production and a ton of new growth.
taking HGH and some Slin at the same time of this, and you will blow up!! keep your diet clean and it will be good quality size.

take another break when your done with that cycle and cruise..

next round, its time to keep things clean for awhile and put on some size with some quality anabolics. low dose test with high doses of EQ, Primobolan, and a little more nandrolone, perhaps VAR as your oral. giving yourself a break from the harsher compounds and the more estrogenic compounds . may be a good time to run some peptides and some IGF during this phase as well. you won't have to worry about any estrogen sides during this time. your just going to keep it really clean and not blow up, but keep getting lean quality gains during this phase.

anyhow, now I'm just rambling on. just trying to paint a picture for you sort of speak of what things may look like and ideas to go about it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paul_

Subscribing to this thread.
Honest opinion - you may not be very close to compete soon.. but it does not even matter. It will happen. Not today, not tomorrow, but if you keep going you can do it.
Keeping on track with everything, I think taking GearHeaded advices in 2 years you will be high contest quality. Just take care for your health and for injuries !
I wish you all the best !

---

Thank you so much my brother!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

I absolutely agree with going from a recomp into a 'wet' bulk.

Deca or NPP (or preferably both, I always use NPP to front load any deca cycle I do) at the 600+ range with high dose of Test is a good start.
I'd do something like run NPP for the first 5 weeks at 100mg EOD then run Deca at 500mg per week for weeks 1-10 (or just run NPP at 600 with no deca . . . depends on what your doing with the deca, sometimes guys are cruising with it)
Running winny with this is not a bad idea, as it has a strong affinity to SHBG and will thus free up more test and make the deca and test both work better. HOWEVER , you can accomplish this with a lot less toxic compound then winny , you can use Proviron or a small dose of Mast, AND then you can add something like Dbol to your Test/Deca cycle. I don't advise Dbol and Winny together. but proviron or mast with Dbol is fine. Run the Dbol the whole 8-10 weeks of your blast. start at a high dose and taper down. you'll have a new found appreciation for Dbol if you run it properly . these short 4 weeks runs of Dbol are bullshit and the gains are pissed away. dbol can really help add size but you have to give it a chance to do its thing over time. its a great nutrient partitioner and its 'wet' in more then the estrogenic sense, it really helps fill out inter cellular water retention (which is a good thing for growth because when more glycogen and water are being forced into the muscle cells then so is more amino acids and nutrients)

Thats going to be a good 'wet' clean bulk and you'll put on lots of size.. when done with that take some time off and go to your cruise (pm me for cruise recommendations, as I don't like giving that out in public view)

yes take a break and get off the Tren train for just a short time. BUT , when your done with your short cruise, you'll jump right back on Tren, only this time you'll stack Tren with some bulkers instead of the cutters you been running it with. Tren stacked with bulkers is going to open up a whole new love affair for you with Tren, its a whole different animal. Stack Tren with some Anadrol and perhaps a low dose of Ment. keep your AI's limited, but run some Nolva and Caber if need be. Up your calories big time on this bulk. the Tren with bulkers like that and a higher amount of estrogen in the body is going to illicit a ton of natty IGF production and a ton of new growth.
taking HGH and some Slin at the same time of this, and you will blow up!! keep your diet clean and it will be good quality size.

take another break when your done with that cycle and cruise..

next round, its time to keep things clean for awhile and put on some size with some quality anabolics. low dose test with high doses of EQ, Primobolan, and a little more nandrolone, perhaps VAR as your oral. giving yourself a break from the harsher compounds and the more estrogenic compounds . may be a good time to run some peptides and some IGF during this phase as well. you won't have to worry about any estrogen sides during this time. your just going to keep it really clean and not blow up, but keep getting lean quality gains during this phase.

anyhow, now I'm just rambling on. just trying to paint a picture for you sort of speak of what things may look like and ideas to go about it

---

You painted one hell of a picture man. What your saying makes perfect sense to me. I can't wait to see how Tren works with some wet compounds cause I've only ever run it for recomp or cutting. Also very excited to see how I respond to the Nandrolone.

I feel like this is the exciting part cause I'm literally building this from scratch, and as badly as I wanna be huge, I also wanna enjoy the journey!

So you've been at it hard for about 6 years now? Can you remember when you made the most notable gains in terms of overall composition...?

Your advice has been so valuable bro I really appreciate how freely you give this info. I feel like it's worth so much! This has taught me that I need a coach if I wanna do this for real. Having someone like you in my corner is critical cause I would waste so much time not doing shit perfectly and if I just listen to you I feel like I'd be far more efficient.

Do you coach at all? How would that work? If we don't live close enough then would you have someone you could possibly refer me to or could we just do it via internet..? This is something I'm seriously considering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

You painted one hell of a picture man. What your saying makes perfect sense to me. I can't wait to see how Tren works with some wet compounds cause I've only ever run it for recomp or cutting. Also very excited to see how I respond to the Nandrolone.

I feel like this is the exciting part cause I'm literally building this from scratch, and as badly as I wanna be huge, I also wanna enjoy the journey!

So you've been at it hard for about 6 years now? Can you remember when you made the most notable gains in terms of overall composition...?

Your advice has been so valuable bro I really appreciate how freely you give this info. I feel like it's worth so much! This has taught me that I need a coach if I wanna do this for real. Having someone like you in my corner is critical cause I would waste so much time not doing shit perfectly and if I just listen to you I feel like I'd be far more efficient.

Do you coach at all? How would that work? If we don't live close enough then would you have someone you could possibly refer me to or could we just do it via internet..? This is something I'm seriously considering.

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whats in bold is the exact reason why people hire coaches. its a small cost for time saving efficiency and reaching goals. lots of guys spend years and years spinning their wheels and not getting much of anywhere.

YES I do online coaching as well as in person coaching and personal training. I even currently have veteran members of this forum whom I'm coaching.
full service online coaching consists of me designing training programs and protocols (using some advanced methods where needed), the diet in complete detail, supplementation, AAS protocols, "how to" coaching in regards to things like insulin timing and use,, and direct access to me 24/7 via phone and email to instruct, teach and coach.
I currently have about 30 clients. But coaching, training, and running my gym are my full time job , NOT a side gig, so I take the time needed with clients. PM me and I'll send you my email if you want to discuss details further

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlphaMindz

So you've been at it hard for about 6 years now? Can you remember when you made the most notable gains in terms of overall composition...?

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I'm 40 years old. I took my first steroid injection at 17 years old (which was a mistake btw). my intrigue to study steroids goes back 23 years.. So yeah I've been involved in fitness in one way or another for a long time. not always bodybuilding though. I've spent a lot of years learning from people way smarter then myself. I've interacted with and learned from guys at a high level in the body building industry as well. I've paid guys to mentor me and teach me. Instead of paying thousands of dollars for a master or phd degree, waste a ton of that $ and only learn about 10% of what I need to know, , I simply pay people with those degrees to teach me the 'golden nuggets' of what they learned (they paid for the degree, and I'm just taking what I can from them :)

the most noticeable gains came a few years back when the synergy between diet, training, AND drug use came together for me and really clicked. lots of guys think of training as one thing, diet as another, and AAS as another ,, BUT when you sync these three things together and make one work for the other and vice a versa everything comes together.
I don't just have a fixed diet, a fixed training program, and then throw 12 week AAS cycles at it. I pick my food, I pick my training program, and I pick my drugs with a purpose to all work together.
when that clicked for me and I started periodizing my training, diet, and drug use, my body comp really started to change and take off.

now of course, life happens, and after that all came together for me I end up with major health issues and had 3 surgeries , was in a wheel chair and bed ridden for months . lost about 40 pounds of that hard earned muscle. but I'm recovering and its coming back :) I still have all the experience and all I learned in my head so it will all come back I'm sure. Though I don't have plans on getting too big with my blood pressure and heart issues, 5'9", 220, 10% is all I'm looking for (I'm really small boned, so thats fairly big for me). I got about 15 more pounds to go to get it back. but its not my main purpose, training and coaching clients and friends of mine at my gym is my main passion

Bro a lean 220 at 5'9'' is fuckin jacked lol. That's big for anybody lol not just a smaller boned dude. I'm sorry to hear about the health issues though that sucks. I hope you make a full recovery and glad you've been able to gain a lot of your muscle back. Luckily experience will always stay with us so no matter what happens, so if we've been able to achieve something once then more than likely we'll be able to achieve it a second time even more efficiently than the first.

I'm glad to hear about what you do and we'll def be talking more about that bro. I need someone like you coaching me and helping me along the way cause I know you're the real deal and I feel like we're on the same wavelength which means I'll listen to you and take your advice. Plus you've accomplished what I'm trying to accomplish and there's no better way to learn something than from someone who's not only already learned it, but has already DONE it!

This is a great platform for you to meet clients, and I'm glad I'm one of em man. You've already had a heavy influence on some of my choices in the past several weeks with your detailed knowledge of this sh*t and you prob saved me years of progress cause I had this idea that growth hormone should be saved for later down the road but your incredible explanation of growth hormone and insulin quickly changed my perception of that entire subject.

Which brings me to the next thing I wanted to say...I'm gonna need your help running insulin cause growth is pretty straight forward, but insulin you can really f*ck yourself up if you don;t know what you're doing so I'd need specific instructions like "pin this amount at this time and eat this many grams of carbs" lol.

I'd like to document the process as well and you saw my before pic from 10 months ago......Imagine the gains you can help me make in another 6-9 months, properly, with ALL of your knowledge. I really liked how you said it's the synergy between eating, training, AND drugs that makes the magic happen, and you saw the most gains in comp when you really learned how to maximize all 3. Well, I believe we can make some crazy sh*t happen you may be able to get me on a stage inside 3 years, what do you think?

lets do it !! Start a log on here and document the whole process. "12 months to jacked". update it with pics and log your process and some of the changes in diet and training that will be happening along with compounds that are being rotated in and out (of course we couldn't reveal all our secrets to the public lol).

btw, I have absolutely zero problem walking you through in exact detail how to do certain things (like dose your insulin, when, how much, how to time it with your HGH use to get a larger pulse of IGF, the exact amount of carbs to take, when and how to measure your blood sugar levels, when do we need to add in metformin and GDA's , how and when to add in GHRP's to get an amplified and compounding effect from the HGH etc etc..).

thats my job and what I do. your getting "coached" through the whole process. we are working together to build your physique. I don't just write you a 50 page program and say good luck :) you'll have my cell and access to me 24/7

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

lets do it !! Start a log on here and document the whole process. "12 months to jacked". update it with pics and log your process and some of the changes in diet and training that will be happening along with compounds that are being rotated in and out (of course we couldn't reveal all our secrets to the public lol).

btw, I have absolutely zero problem walking you through in exact detail how to do certain things (like dose your insulin, when, how much, how to time it with your HGH use to get a larger pulse of IGF, the exact amount of carbs to take, when and how to measure your blood sugar levels, when do we need to add in metformin and GDA's , how and when to add in GHRP's to get an amplified and compounding effect from the HGH etc etc..).

thats my job and what I do. your getting "coached" through the whole process. we are working together to build your physique. I don't just write you a 50 page program and say good luck :) you'll have my cell and access to me 24/7

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Hell yeah man that sounds sick I'm def down! I'll shoot you a pm later when I'm off work and back from the gym this eve and we'll iron out the details. Fuck yeah man I'm excited!