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Thread: When could Iran get the bomb??

  1. #1
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    When could Iran get the bomb??

    Sorry for the wierd layout. I copied this from a pdf article from bulletin of atomic scientists. Its not a free article and the pdf is to big to attach. Either way it is a good one and it explains why iran cant have a nuke before 2009.


    When could Iran get the Bomb?
    26 BULLETIN OF THE ATOMIC SCIENTISTS JULY/AUGUST 2006
    < < what we know and what we don’t know
    about iran’s nuclear program. > >
    by david albright

    Though hardly transparent,
    Director of
    National Intelligence
    John Negroponte’s
    testimony on Iran before
    the Senate Intelligence
    Committee on February 2 was
    clearly cautious. The U.S. intelligence
    community judges that Iran probably
    has neither a nuclear weapon nor the
    necessary fissile material for a weapon,
    he stated.

    If Iran continues on
    its current path, it “will likely have
    the capability to produce a nuclear
    weapon within the next decade,” he
    added. The basis for this estimate
    remains classified, although Iran’s
    lack of knowledge and experience in
    building and running large numbers
    of centrifuges for uranium enrichment
    was reportedly an important
    consideration.

    When pressed, U.S.
    officials have said that they interpret
    Negroponte’s remark to mean that
    Iran will need roughly 5–10 years before
    it possesses nuclear weapons.
    Despite this caution, a handful of
    U.S. officials have since attempted
    to overstate Iran’s nuclear progress,
    contradicting even this latest estimate.

    It appears that in the ongoing
    crisis between Iran and the United
    States, the crucial struggle for public
    perception of the Iranian nuclear
    threat is well under way.
    Following an International Atomic
    Energy Agency (IAEA) briefing of
    U.N. Security Council permanent
    members and Germany in mid-March
    about a group of 164 centrifuges at
    Iran’s Natanz uranium enrichment
    site, U.S. officials began to distort
    what the IAEA had said.

    Under the cloak of anonymity, these officials told
    journalists that Iran’s actions represented
    a significant acceleration of its
    enrichment program. The IAEA was
    “shocked,” “astonished,” and “blown
    away” by Iran’s progress on gas centrifuges,
    according to these U.S. officials,
    leading the United States to revise its
    own timeline for when Iran will get the
    bomb.

    In reality, IAEA officials said
    they were not surprised by Iran’s actions.
    These U.S. statements, a senior
    IAEA official told the Associated Press,
    came “from people who are seeking a
    crisis, not a solution.”1
    Some outside experts and officials,
    including Defense Secretary Donald
    Rumsfeld, may be trying to undermine
    U.S. intelligence assessments on Iran’s
    timeline to the bomb by highlighting
    the intelligence community’s failure to
    correctly assess Iraq’s weapons of mass
    destruction efforts.2

    Although the intelligence community deserves strong
    criticism for its analysis of Iraq’s weapons
    programs, the more recent Iranian
    analysis has been subject to more thorough
    review and is more consensual
    than the Iraqi assessments. For example,
    centrifuge experts at Oak Ridge
    National Laboratory, who challenged
    faulty CIA conclusions that Iraqi aluminum
    tubes were for a reconstituted
    nuclear weapons program long before
    the war, have been central in assessing
    Iran’s gas centrifuge program for the
    intelligence community, according to a
    U.S. intelligence official.

    Iran is indeed on the verge of mastering
    a critical step in building and
    operating a gas centrifuge plant that
    would be able to produce enriched
    uranium for either peaceful or military
    purposes. However, it can be expected
    to face serious technical hurdles before
    it can reliably produce large quantities
    of enriched uranium.

    Many details about Iran’s technical
    nuclear capabilities and plans are unknown,
    and the IAEA has neither been
    able to verify that Iran has declared its
    nuclear activities in full nor to establish
    conclusively that Iran does not have
    hidden nuclear enrichment sites. Western
    governments view with skepticism
    Iranian denials of intentions to produce
    highly enriched uranium (HEU)
    or to build nuclear weapons.

    Yet there is no evidence of an
    Iranian decision to build a nuclear arsenal,
    let alone any knowledge of an official Iranian
    schedule for acquiring nuclear weapons.
    During the past three years of IAEA
    inspections, the international community
    has learned a great deal of information
    about the Iranian program
    that can be used to estimate the minimum
    amount of time Iran would need
    to produce enough HEU for a nuclear
    bomb.

    According to several possible
    scenarios, Iran appears to need at
    least three years before it could have
    enough HEU to make a nuclear weapon.
    Given the technical difficulty of the
    task, it could take Iran much longer.
    With political rhetoric likely to intensify
    during the coming months, it is
    essential to have as clear an evaluation
    as possible of Iranian nuclear capabilities.
    It is also essential to avoid repeating
    the mistakes that were made prior to the
    Iraq War, when senior Bush administration
    officials and their allies outside government
    hyped the Iraqi nuclear threat
    to gain support in confronting Iraq.

    Out of the gate
    Iran’s recent actions appear aimed
    at rapidly installing and running gas
    centrifuges, which can be used to
    separate uranium 235 from uranium
    238—the process known as enrichment.
    In early January 2006, Iran
    removed 52 IAEA seals that verified
    the suspension of Iran’s P-1 centrifuge
    uranium enrichment program
    that had been in effect since October
    2003. (The P-1 centrifuge is a design
    that Iran developed from plans acquired
    through the nuclear smuggling
    network of Pakistani scientist A. Q.
    Khan.)

    The seals were located at the
    Natanz, Pars Trash, and Farayand
    Technique sites, Iran’s main centrifuge
    facilities. On February 11, Iran
    started to enrich uranium in a small
    number of centrifuges at Natanz.
    After removing the seals, Iran also
    started to substantially renovate key
    portions of its main centrifuge research
    and development facility, the
    Pilot Fuel Enrichment Plant at Natanz.
    Iran secretly began construction
    on the pilot plant in 2001, and it installed
    about 200 centrifuges in 2002
    and 2003. The pilot plant is designed
    to hold six 164-machine cascades,
    groups of centrifuges connected by
    pipes that work together to enrich
    greater amounts of uranium to higher
    enrichment levels than a group of individual
    centrifuges.

    The plant has space for additional, smaller test
    cascades, for a total of about 1,000 centrifuges.
    At Natanz and Farayand Technique,
    Iran quickly restarted testing and
    checking centrifuge components to
    determine if they were manufactured
    precisely enough to use in a centrifuge.
    By early March, Iran had restarted enriching
    uranium at the pilot plant in
    10- and 20-centrifuge cascades.
    Iran also moved processing tanks
    and an autoclave—used to heat centrifuge
    feed material known as uranium
    hexafluoride into a gas prior to insertion
    into a centrifuge cascade—into its
    main production facility, the underground
    Fuel Enrichment Plant (FEP)
    at Natanz. This plant is designed to
    eventually hold 50,000–60,000 centrifuges.

    Iran told the IAEA that it intends
    to start installing the first 3,000
    P-1 centrifuges at the FEP in the fourth
    quarter of 2006. A key outstanding
    question is whether Iran has procured
    from abroad or domestically manufactured
    all the equipment and materials
    it needs to finish the first module of
    3,000 centrifuges.
    Iran’s Uranium Conversion Facility
    at Isfahan, which converts natural
    uranium into uranium hexafluoride,
    has continued to operate since restarting
    in August 2005, following the
    beginning of the breakdown in the
    suspension.

    By May 2006, Iran had produced 110
    metric tons of uranium hexafluoride.3
    Assuming that roughly 5 metric tons of
    uranium hexafluoride are needed to make
    enough HEU for a nuclear weapon, this stock
    represents enough natural uranium hexafluoride
    for more than 20 nuclear weapons.
    Although this uranium hexafluoride
    contains impurities that can interfere
    with the operation of centrifuges and
    reduce their output or cause them to
    fail, most IAEA experts believe that
    Iran can overcome this problem and
    that the issue of hexafluoride impurity
    has been overblown in the media. Iran
    is known to be working to improve
    the purity of its uranium hexafluoride.
    If necessary, Iran could use its existing
    stock of impure material, either further
    purifying this uranium hexafluoride or
    settling for reduced output and a higher
    centrifuge failure rate.

    Centrifuge know-how
    A key part of the development of Iran’s
    gas centrifuge program is the operation
    of the 164-machine test cascades
    at the Natanz pilot plant, which will
    be the workhorses of any future centrifuge
    plant. Iran finished installing its
    first test cascade in the fall of 2003, but
    the cascade never operated with uranium
    hexafluoride prior to the October
    2003 suspension. On April 13, 2006,
    Iran announced that it had produced
    low-enriched uranium (LEU) in its 164-
    machine cascade. Soon afterward, it announced
    that it had enriched uranium
    up to a level of almost 5 percent.
    Restarting the cascade took several
    months because Iran had to repair damaged
    centrifuges. According to IAEA
    reports, many centrifuges crashed or
    broke when the cascade was shut down
    at the start of the suspension in 2003.
    Before introducing uranium hexafluoride,
    Iran had to reconnect all the pipes,
    establish a vacuum inside the cascade,
    and prepare the cascade for operation
    with uranium hexafluoride.

    The initial performance of the P-1
    centrifuges in this cascade has been
    lower than expected. Based on the
    April 12 statements of Gholam Reza
    Aghazadeh, head of the Atomic Energy
    Organization of Iran, the average
    annualized output of the centrifuges
    in this cascade is relatively low.4 In the
    same interview, Aghazadeh implied
    that he expects the average output of
    each P-1 centrifuge to almost double
    in the main plant.
    In addition, Iran has not yet run
    this cascade continuously to produce
    enriched uranium. According to a
    Vienna diplomat, the cascade operated
    with uranium hexafluoride only
    about half of its first month of operation,
    although it continued to operate
    under vacuum the rest of the time.

    During this period, according to a
    May 19 Agence France Presse report,
    the cascade produced only “dozens
    of grams” of enriched uranium, far
    below the more than 2,000 grams
    Aghazadeh predicted the cascade
    would produce running continuously
    for that length of time. The Iranian
    centrifuge operators do not yet have
    sufficient understanding of cascade
    operation and must conduct a series
    of longer tests to develop a deeper
    understanding.
    The IAEA reported in April that
    Iran is building the second and third
    cascades at the pilot plant. A senior
    diplomat in Vienna said in a late-
    April interview that the second and
    third cascades could start by early
    summer. This schedule would allow
    Iran to test multiple cascades running
    in parallel, a necessary step before
    building a centrifuge plant composed
    of such cascades. The diplomat
    speculated that Iran could continue
    with this pattern, installing the fourth
    and fifth in July and August, respectively.

    The space for the sixth cascade
    is currently occupied by the 10- and
    20-machine cascades, he said.
    Iran would likely want to run its
    cascades individually and in parallel
    for several months to ensure that
    no significant problems develop and
    to gain confidence that it can reliably
    enrich uranium in the cascades.
    Problems could include excessive vibration
    of the centrifuges, motor or
    power failures, pressure and temperature
    instabilities, or breakdown of the
    vacuum. Iran may also want to test
    any emergency systems designed to
    shut down the cascade without losing
    many centrifuges in the event of
    a major failure. Absent major problems,
    Iran is expected to need until
    the fall or later to demonstrate successful
    operation of its cascades and
    their associated emergency and control
    systems.
    Once Iran overcomes the technical
    hurdle of operating its demonstration
    cascades, it can duplicate them
    and even create larger cascades. Iran
    would then be ready to build a centrifuge
    plant able to produce significant
    amounts of enriched uranium either
    for peaceful purposes or for nuclear
    weapons.

    The underground path
    Answering the question of how soon
    Iran could produce enough HEU for
    a nuclear weapon is complicated and
    fraught with uncertainty. Beyond the
    technical uncertainties, several other
    important factors are unknown. Will
    Iran develop an enrichment capability
    but produce only LEU for use in
    nuclear power reactors and not any
    HEU for use in a nuclear weapon?
    Will Iran withdraw from the Nuclear
    Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT),
    expel IAEA inspectors, and concentrate
    on building secret nuclear
    facilities? How does the Iranian
    regime perceive the political risks of
    a particular action, such as trying to
    make HEU in the pilot plant? What
    resources will Iran apply to finishing
    its uranium enrichment facilities? Will
    there be preemptive military strikes
    against Iranian nuclear sites?

    For the purposes of these estimates,
    a crude fission nuclear weapon is estimated
    to require 15–20 kilograms
    of weapon-grade uranium (HEU containing
    more than 90 percent uranium
    235).5 Iran’s most direct path to obtaining
    HEU for nuclear weapons is to
    build a relatively small gas centrifuge
    plant that can make weapon-grade
    uranium directly.6 If Iran built such a
    plant openly, it would be an acknowledgement
    that it seeks nuclear weapons
    and would invite a harsh response
    from the West and the IAEA.
    As a result, Iran would likely pursue
    such a path in utmost secrecy, without
    declaring to the IAEA the facility and
    any associated uranium hexafluoride
    production facilities. Because Iran announced
    earlier this year that it was
    ending its implementation of the Additional
    Protocol—an advanced safeguards
    agreement created in the 1990s
    to fix traditional safeguards’ inability
    to provide adequate assurance that
    a country does not have undeclared
    nuclear facilities or materials—the
    IAEA would face a difficult challenge
    discovering such a clandestine facility.

    The IAEA has already reported that it
    can no longer effectively monitor centrifuge
    components, unless they are
    at Natanz and within areas subject to
    IAEA containment and surveillance.
    A centrifuge plant containing about
    1,500–1,800 P-1 centrifuges is sufficient
    to make more than enough HEU
    for one nuclear weapon per year.
    (Each P-1 centrifuge is assumed to
    have an output of about 2.5–3 separative
    work units [swu] per year.7 With
    a capacity of 4,500 swu per year, this
    facility could produce as much as 28
    kilograms of weapon-grade uranium
    a year.8)
    Iran has enough components to
    build up to 5,000 centrifuges, according
    to some senior diplomats
    in Vienna. Other senior diplomats,
    however, have said that Iran may
    not have 5,000 of all components,
    and that many components are not
    expected to pass quality control. In
    total, Iran is estimated to have in
    hand enough decent components for
    at least 1,000 to 2,000 centrifuges,
    in addition to the roughly 800 centrifuges
    already slated for the pilot
    plant. Iran could also build new centrifuge
    components, and, in fact, may
    have already started to do so.

    If Iran had started to build a clandestine
    plant with 1,500 –1,800 centrifuges
    in early 2006, it could assemble
    enough additional usable machines
    in about 15–18 months, or by about
    mid-2007. It would need to assemble
    centrifuges at the upper limit of its
    past rate, about 70–100 centrifuges
    per month, to accomplish this goal.
    In the meantime, Iran would need to
    identify a new facility where it could
    install the centrifuge cascades, since itTINE
    is unlikely to choose Natanz as the location
    of a secret plant. It would also
    need to install control and emergency
    equipment, feed and withdrawal
    systems, and other peripheral equipment.
    It would then need to integrate
    all of these systems, test them, and
    commission the plant.

    Iran could
    start immediately to accomplish these
    steps, even before the final testing of
    the 164-machine cascades at Natanz,
    but final completion of a clandestine
    plant would be highly unlikely before
    the end of 2007.
    Given another year to make enough
    HEU for a nuclear weapon, and a few
    more months to convert the uranium
    into weapon components, Iran could
    have its first nuclear weapon in 2009.
    By this time, Iran could have had sufficient
    time to prepare the other components
    of a nuclear weapon, although
    the weapon may not be small enough
    to be deliverable by a ballistic missile.
    This result reflects a worst-case assessment
    for arms control. Iran can be
    expected to take longer, as it is likely
    to encounter technical difficulties
    that would delay bringing a centrifuge
    plant into operation. Factors
    causing delay could include difficulty
    assembling and installing
    so many centrifuges in such
    a short time period, inability to
    achieve the relatively high separative
    work output used in these
    estimates, difficulty acquiring
    sufficient dual-use equipment
    overseas, taking longer than expected
    to overcome difficulties
    in operating the cascades as a
    single production unit, or a
    holdup in commissioning the secret
    centrifuge plant.

    Iranian officials have recently announced
    that they are also working
    on developing the more advanced
    P-2 centrifuge, the designs for which
    were also obtained from the Khan
    network. Iran’s progress on this centrifuge
    appears to lag behind that of
    the P-1 centrifuge, as evidenced by a
    lack of procurement records for P-2
    parts. The IAEA has been unable to
    determine the exact status of the P-2
    program, but what is known appears
    to exclude the existence of undeclared
    P-2 facilities sufficiently advanced to
    significantly shift projections of the
    amount of time Iran would need to
    produce nuclear weapons.

    Readying a “breakout”
    Another way that Iran could produce
    HEU for nuclear weapons would
    be to use its Natanz production
    facility, even though the centrifuge
    module is being designed to produce
    LEU for use in nuclear reactors. Iran
    has said it intends to start installing its
    first module of 3,000 centrifuges in the
    production facility’s underground halls
    in late 2006, though it doesn’t presently
    have enough centrifuge parts to complete
    the module. Since the pilot plant
    would likely have already produced
    a relatively large amount of LEU, the
    time to produce enough HEU for a
    nuclear weapon in this facility could be
    dramatically shortened.

    At the above rates of centrifuge assembly,
    and assuming that it has, can
    produce, or acquire abroad enough
    P-1 centrifuges and associated equipment,
    Iran could finish assembling the
    module’s 3,000 centrifuges sometime
    in 2008. Although Iran would likely
    build and operate some cascades before
    all the centrifuges are assembled,
    it will probably need at least another year
    to finish this module, placing the
    completion date in 2009 or 2010. Unexpected
    complications could delay
    the commissioning date. Alternatively,
    Iran could accelerate the pace by manufacturing,
    assembling, and installing
    centrifuges more quickly. Given all
    the difficult tasks that must be accomplished,
    however, Iran is unlikely to
    commission this module much before
    the start of 2009.

    If Iran decided to make HEU in
    this module, it would have several
    alternatives. Because of the small
    throughput and great operational
    flexibility of centrifuges, HEU for
    nuclear weapons could be produced
    by reconfiguring the cascades in the
    module or by batch recycling, which
    entails feeding the cascade product
    back into the same cascade for subsequent
    cycles of enrichment. Reconfiguration could be as
    straightforward as connecting separate
    cascades in series and carefully
    selecting the places where new pipes
    interconnect the cascades. Iran’s
    3,000-centrifuge module is slated
    to be composed of almost 20 164-
    centrifuge cascades, operating together
    under one common control system.
    With such a setup, reconfiguration
    would not require the disassembly
    of the individual cascades and could
    be accomplished within days. Such a
    setup could lessen by 10 percent the
    enrichment output, and the HEU’s
    final enrichment level may reach only
    80 percent, which is still sufficient for
    use in an existing implosion design,
    albeit with a lower explosive yield.

    With a reconfigured plant, and
    starting with natural uranium, 20
    kilograms of HEU could be produced
    within four to six months. If
    Iran waited until it had produced a
    stock of LEU before reconfiguring
    and then used this stock as the initial
    feedstock in the reconfigured
    plant, it could produce 20 kilograms
    of HEU in about one to
    two months.
    Batch recycling would entail
    putting the cascade product
    back through the cascade several
    times, without changing the cascade’s
    basic setup. Starting with natural uranium,
    cascades of the type expected at
    Natanz could produce weapon-grade
    uranium after four to five recycles.
    Twenty kilograms of weapon-grade
    uranium could be produced in about
    six to twelve months. If the batch operation
    started with an existing stock of
    LEU, the time to produce 20 kilograms
    of weapon-grade uranium would drop
    to about one to two months.
    Whether using batch recycling or
    reconfiguration, Iran would likely operate
    the module to make LEU so that
    any production of HEU would be expected
    to happen quickly. Still, using
    either of these breakout approaches,
    Iran is not likely to have enough HEU
    for a nuclear weapon until 2009, and
    technical obstacles may further delay
    the operation of the module in the
    production facility.

    Looking at a timeline of at least
    three years before Iran could have a
    nuclear weapons capability means
    that there is still time to pursue aggressive
    diplomatic options and time
    for measures such as sanctions to have
    an effect, if they become necessary.
    In the short term, it is imperative
    for the international community to
    intensify its efforts to disrupt or slow
    Iran’s ongoing overseas acquisition of
    dual-use items for its centrifuge program.
    Iran has encountered greater
    difficulty acquiring these items because
    of the increased scrutiny by key
    supplier states and companies, forcing
    Iranian smugglers to look elsewhere.
    As Iran applies more devious methods
    or seeks these items in other countries,
    greater efforts will be required
    to thwart it from succeeding.

    It is vital to continue to understand
    what Iran has accomplished, what
    it still has to learn, and when it will
    reach a point when a plan to pursue
    nuclear weapons covertly or openly
    could succeed more quickly than the
    international community can react.
    Although these estimates include significant
    uncertainties, they reinforce
    the view that Iran must foreswear any
    deployed enrichment capability and
    accept adequate inspections. Otherwise,
    we risk a seismic shift in the balance
    of power in the region. 

  2. #2
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    They might not be able to make one them self till 2009 but they are the 4th biggest oil producing nation in the world that means they are getting mega $$ so what stops them buying some from N/Korea, pakistan, india, russia, china. The Chinese already caught Koreans selling wepons grade uranium in china

    http://english.chosun.com/w21data/ht...610240011.html

    so what stops them selling it in Iran or anyware else for that matter.

    They might already thats why they are beng so confident and cocky lately.
    Last edited by Damien_III; 10-27-2006 at 02:45 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien_III
    They might not be able to make one them self till 2009 but they are the 4th biggest oil producing nation in the world that means they are getting mega $$ so what stops them buying some from N/Korea, pakistan, india, russia, china. The Chinese already caught Koreans selling wepons grade uranium in china

    http://english.chosun.com/w21data/ht...610240011.html

    so what stops them selling it in Iran or anyware else for that matter.

    They might already thats why they are beng so confident and cocky lately.
    What stops them? Johan's relentless belief that Iran would not do such a thing, that is it! They will do it and it would be naive to think otherwise......

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    I believe they already have the bomb and are provoking Israel (not America) to do a strike like they did on iraq then they have the excuse to "wipe Israel of the map" like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said.

    Even though America is a very close allie to Israel they know america alone would get condemnation from round the globe for an pre-emtive attack on Iran but Israel could do it and if they get retaliated back at with nukes then Israel will retaliate with nukes back and America will be forced to side with Israel. Then it will all decide weather the Russians and Chinese side with the UN or with there money makers in the middle east.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien_III
    They might not be able to make one them self till 2009 but they are the 4th biggest oil producing nation in the world that means they are getting mega $$ so what stops them buying some from N/Korea, pakistan, india, russia, china. The Chinese already caught Koreans selling wepons grade uranium in china

    http://english.chosun.com/w21data/ht...610240011.html

    so what stops them selling it in Iran or anyware else for that matter.

    They might already thats why they are beng so confident and cocky lately.
    China, India, Russia or pakistan is as likely to sell a nuke to iran as france, uk or us. They would have absolutely nothing at all to gain from it. Whats more profitable for russia, china and india. A quick deal for a billion bucks or trade relations with the west?? I have much more faith in Putin not doing stupid shit than I have in Bush because atleast it seems like Putin is blessed with intelligence.

    North korea, who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    What stops them? Johan's relentless belief that Iran would not do such a thing, that is it! They will do it and it would be naive to think otherwise......
    Your mighty ignorant if you belife any of those mentioned nations(except north korea) would sell anything like that to Iran.

    But lets say they can buy weapons grade uranium or plutonium from North korea. Would bombing Iran now do any difference? They would be equaly likely to buy it either way. Since the discussion has been revolving around Iran producing a bomb and material by themself its utterly clear that they wont be able to do so in a few years.

    If we start to imagine they can buy weapons grade uranium then all bets are off. Any skilled engineer or physicst could build a crude bomb if they just had weapons grade uranium.

    This is just reaching for straws to justify attacking Iran.

    You guys claim
    "iran is building a nuke"
    experts show its impossible. Then you suddenly change the story into
    "iran is buying a nuke or weapons grade uranium"

    Well duh if it was that easy why hasnt bin ladin done that a few years ago. He was a ****ing billionair, why didnt arafat do it? Its not like the nutcases in the middle east has been in lack of money up until now.

  6. #6
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    btw logan I have never ever once stated I belive Iran is a peace loving nation. I have only stated there is not one single shred of evidence that iran has a nuclear weapons program.
    So please stop those silly attempts to discredit what I say since you know I am right in that regard.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damien_III
    I believe they already have the bomb and are provoking Israel (not America) to do a strike like they did on iraq then they have the excuse to "wipe Israel of the map" like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said.

    Even though America is a very close allie to Israel they know america alone would get condemnation from round the globe for an pre-emtive attack on Iran but Israel could do it and if they get retaliated back at with nukes then Israel will retaliate with nukes back and America will be forced to side with Israel. Then it will all decide weather the Russians and Chinese side with the UN or with there money makers in the middle east.
    There is nothing in the world htat would make russia or china side with the middle east in a confrontation. China makes ALOT more money from the usa than they will ever do from any shithole in the middle east and russia is growing rich and fat on the deals with the EU. The income those 2 countries get from the middle east is peanuts compared to the trade relations with the us and EU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Your mighty ignorant if you belife any of those mentioned nations(except north korea) would sell anything like that to Iran.

    But lets say they can buy weapons grade uranium or plutonium from North korea. Would bombing Iran now do any difference? They would be equaly likely to buy it either way. Since the discussion has been revolving around Iran producing a bomb and material by themself its utterly clear that they wont be able to do so in a few years.

    If we start to imagine they can buy weapons grade uranium then all bets are off. Any skilled engineer or physicst could build a crude bomb if they just had weapons grade uranium.

    This is just reaching for straws to justify attacking Iran.

    You guys claim
    "iran is building a nuke"
    experts show its impossible. Then you suddenly change the story into
    "iran is buying a nuke or weapons grade uranium"

    Well duh if it was that easy why hasnt bin ladin done that a few years ago. He was a ****ing billionair, why didnt arafat do it? Its not like the nutcases in the middle east has been in lack of money up until now.
    Don't get mad, I am using your stance. This is not the continuation of another thread, it is a new one. As you would say, please stick to the thread topic.......You said that Iran would not do this type of thing if they had it, they should be trusted with their nuclear ambitions. As you put it, "they innocent until proven guilty". My point is, can we take that chance. I did not say that I was for invading Iran, but doing nothing is far worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Don't get mad, I am using your stance. This is not the continuation of another thread, it is a new one. As you would say, please stick to the thread topic.......You said that Iran would not do this type of thing if they had it, they should be trusted with their nuclear ambitions. As you put it, "they innocent until proven guilty". My point is, can we take that chance. I did not say that I was for invading Iran, but doing nothing is far worse.
    No no I have never said they should be trusted for there nuclear ambitions. Hell I dont trust any nation at all when it comes to nuclear issues. Thats why I dont want any nation, including yours, to have nuclear weapons.

    But aslong as Iran goes along with everything included in the NPT its cool with me. The whole existance of the NPT is to enable states to get nuclear power in a manner that prevents them from getting weapons. I trust the NPT and the IAEA.

    Since Iran can not build a nuke in a few years I say negotiate more. If there is any evidence that Iran is working on a weapons project then I would not object to carpet bombing every nuclear facility in Iran. But untill there is proof and aslong as there is ample time I think the option to go in an **** em up should not even be anywhere close to the table.

    When people like bush always hint that the attack option is on the table it just forces Iran into a much more defensive position.

    If I want to honestly and peacefully negotiate with you to convince you stop building a gun I dont bring a basebal bat....If anything that will convince you that you realy need that gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Well yes I stand behind that opinion. I dont belive they would do it. Its completely ilogical.

    I dont trust them, but I dont think they care crazy enough to sell anything.

    Either way that is utterly hypothetical since they have nothing to sell and it will remain that way for atleast 2-3 more years.

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    ohh I was wrong btw. The article was free.

    http://www.thebulletin.org/article.p...n=ja06albright

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Damien_III
    I believe they already have the bomb and are provoking Israel (not America) to do a strike like they did on iraq then they have the excuse to "wipe Israel of the map" like President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said.

    Even though America is a very close allie to Israel they know america alone would get condemnation from round the globe for an pre-emtive attack on Iran but Israel could do it and if they get retaliated back at with nukes then Israel will retaliate with nukes back and America will be forced to side with Israel. Then it will all decide weather the Russians and Chinese side with the UN or with there money makers in the middle east.
    It wouldn't be much off a match with Israel's 200+ nukes and Irans zero nukes.

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    Yes apparent "Zero" nukes you have to remember Israel is much smaller than Iran so 5-10 nukes droped on Israiel will be far more detructive for that country than 5-10 droped on Iran. Although I dont think Israiel have 200+nukes. Mabe 20 to 50 but not 200. I am open to evedence on this as I realy have no idear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    If I want to honestly and peacefully negotiate with you to convince you stop building a gun I dont bring a basebal bat....If anything that will convince you that you realy need that gun.
    Perhaps. But if you have tried to convince my crazy neighbors not to build a gun and they have ignored you, and you have done nothing else, than I would ignore you as well. Carrot and stick must both always be in place. We will not be changing Iran's mind about nuclear weapons. Have you wondered why it is that the one of the world's largest producers of oil even wants nuclear power? Please do not try and pursuade me that it is because they want a greener earth.........

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Well yes I stand behind that opinion. I dont belive they would do it. Its completely ilogical.

    I dont trust them, but I dont think they care crazy enough to sell anything.

    Either way that is utterly hypothetical since they have nothing to sell and it will remain that way for atleast 2-3 more years.
    It has already been 5 years since 9/11 attacks. 2-3 years is not alot of time, and if we wait until the 11th hour it will be way to late.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Well yes I stand behind that opinion. I dont belive they would do it. Its completely ilogical.

    I dont trust them, but I dont think they care crazy enough to sell anything.
    Illogical? Since when has the term been used to describe Iran's leadership?You don't think is not good enough for me, what if you are wrong Johan? Are you willing to stake your life on this opinion? I hope so, because that is exactly what you are asking the Israelis to do....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Perhaps. But if you have tried to convince my crazy neighbors not to build a gun and they have ignored you, and you have done nothing else, than I would ignore you as well. Carrot and stick must both always be in place. We will not be changing Iran's mind about nuclear weapons. Have you wondered why it is that the one of the world's largest producers of oil even wants nuclear power? Please do not try and pursuade me that it is because they want a greener earth.........
    But your crazy neighboor hasnt ignored you. Its the other way around this time. You are ignoring the crazy neighboor. As far as I know iran and the us have had no official relations since the hostage crisis right?? Right now the EU is showing the carrot while the US is flaunting the stick.

    I would assume that Iran wants nuclear power for the same reason as norway(third or fourth biggest oil exporter ahead of iran)is investing heavily in alternatives. They might realise that oil is just for the coming 20 years and then its all over. Is it only a privelidge of the western countries to look ahead Why wait 20 years until they go broke, better to build it now while they are rolling in money.

    And its offcourse equaly likely they want them to build nuclear weapons. Or both. Who knows there motives? I sure dont.

    Either way, aslong as they go along with the NPT and IAEA I dont realy care about what motives they have. Its realy a non issue. The only important thing is that the stick to the treaty. My opinion doesnt matter. The only thing that matters is the NPT.
    We could discuss motives day and night without it meaning anything.

    Also remember, Syria, South Korea, South Africa, Taiwan are 4 nations that where convinced and/or threatened to drop there nuclear weapons program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Illogical? Since when has the term been used to describe Iran's leadership?You don't think is not good enough for me, what if you are wrong Johan? Are you willing to stake your life on this opinion? I hope so, because that is exactly what you are asking the Israelis to do....
    Nope not on that oppinion. I am willing to bet my life on the NPT and IAEA...Not what I feel is ilogical or not. Aslong as Iran allows inspections and are completely transparent with there nuclear program its cool by me. I would probably(offcourse impossible to tell for sure)say the same if I where a israeli.

    I dont know enough about Irani politics and leaders to know if they act illogical or not. Ahmajedin has a big mouth but he doesnt seem to act in a illogical way. The ayatholla on the other hand seems like a much smoother man that doesnt make any stupid claims. I guess thats what he has ahmajedin for.

    Either way Ahmajedin(or however its spelled) is a quite educated man so he cant be stupid. Crazy maby, or just playing crazy to get better deals with the west. He won the election on beeing a hardliner so I guess he is more or less forced to play though to satisfy his voters.

    Whats more threatening.

    Ahmajedin speaking about Israel disapering from the pages of time and spewing alot of bullshit.
    Or
    President bush labeling 3 nations as the axis of evil and promptly, without any reason, invading one of those while threatening the other two with nuclear weapons?

    Dont you se how that would encourage rather than discourage those nations to get wmd's? Especialy since the bush admin has show that they will fabricate a reason to invade if there is no real one.

    Anyway this is getting of topic. But all these threats and talks about attacks ect does nothing to stabilise the situation, It just makes it more volatile. How can Iran accept the offers from the EU when knowing the Bush admin is totaly unreliable? There is one ability both ahmajedin and bush lacks. The ability to compromise.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    But your crazy neighboor hasnt ignored you. Its the other way around this time. You are ignoring the crazy neighboor. As far as I know iran and the us have had no official relations since the hostage crisis right?? Right now the EU is showing the carrot while the US is flaunting the stick.

    Correct, would you label the hostage crisis as the US's fault as well?I would assume that Iran wants nuclear power for the same reason as norway(third or fourth biggest oil exporter ahead of iran)is investing heavily in alternatives. They might realise that oil is just for the coming 20 years and then its all over. Is it only a privelidge of the western countries to look ahead Why wait 20 years until they go broke, better to build it now while they are rolling in money.
    Norway is not promoting terrorism, Iran is no Norway. Has the NPT/IAEA been in north korea all these years as well? And its offcourse equaly likely they want them to build nuclear weapons. Or both. Who knows there motives? I sure dont.

    Either way, aslong as they go along with the NPT and IAEA I dont realy care about what motives they have. Its realy a non issue. The only important thing is that the stick to the treaty. My opinion doesnt matter. The only thing that matters is the NPT.
    We could discuss motives day and night without it meaning anything.

    Also remember, Syria, South Korea, South Africa, Taiwan are 4 nations that where convinced and/or threatened to drop there nuclear weapons program.



    Nope not on that oppinion. I am willing to bet my life on the NPT and IAEA...Not what I feel is ilogical or not. Aslong as Iran allows inspections and are completely transparent with there nuclear program its cool by me. I would probably(offcourse impossible to tell for sure)say the same if I where a israeli.

    I dont know enough about Irani politics and leaders to know if they act illogical or not. Ahmajedin has a big mouth but he doesnt seem to act in a illogical way. The ayatholla on the other hand seems like a much smoother man that doesnt make any stupid claims. I guess thats what he has ahmajedin for.

    Either way Ahmajedin(or however its spelled) is a quite educated man so he cant be stupid. Crazy maby, or just playing crazy to get better deals with the west. He won the election on beeing a hardliner so I guess he is more or less forced to play though to satisfy his voters.

    Whats more threatening.

    Ahmajedin speaking about Israel disapering from the pages of time and spewing alot of bullshit.
    Or
    President bush labeling 3 nations as the axis of evil and promptly, without any reason, invading one of those while threatening the other two with nuclear weapons? The US has threatened to use nuclear weapons on Iran? Dont you se how that would encourage rather than discourage those nations to get wmd's? Especialy since the bush admin has show that they will fabricate a reason to invade if there is no real one. No reason? How about the 17 sanctions against Iraq that yielded nothing. Were the NPT/IAEA not booted out of Iraq by Sadaam?

    Anyway this is getting of topic. But all these threats and talks about attacks ect does nothing to stabilise the situation, It just makes it more volatile. How can Iran accept the offers from the EU when knowing the Bush admin is totaly unreliable? There is one ability both ahmajedin and bush lacks. The ability to compromise.
    OK, you are the president of the US, what would you offer Iran to stabilize the current situation. What do you think Iran wants? My opinion is that they want nuclear weapons to carry out their plans with Israel..at the very least the ability to hold that gun to Israel's head.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Correct, would you label the hostage crisis as the US's fault as well?
    No clue I dont know much about history.
    But I assume they had a motivation from the fact that the US did help to remove a democraticly elected leader and forced the people to live under a dictator for 20 something years. I would be pissed aswell. It was the fault of the students that took those hostages, but it was surely not unmotivated. Every action(even the actions the us take) has a reaction right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Norway is not promoting terrorism, Iran is no Norway. Has the NPT/IAEA been in north korea all these years as well?
    Thats not what the question was about. If you say iran has no reason to want nuclear power simply because they are a big oil producer, then the same could surely be said about Norway right?
    I dont pretend to know exactly what Iran wants. But there is nothing inherently wierd about a oil producing nation searching for alternatives. So its a flawed argument to state that they should have no need or desire for nuclear power simply because of hte oil.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    The US has threatened to use nuclear weapons on Iran?
    Read this quote
    http://www.thebulletin.org/article_n...ofn=so06norris
    During an impromptu April 18 press conference, President George W. Bush was asked if his assertion that "all options are on the table" regarding Iran included the possibility of a nuclear strike. Bush reiterated, "All options are on the table. We want to solve this issue diplomatically, and we're working hard to do so."
    If that is not a threat I dont know what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    No reason? How about the 17 sanctions against Iraq that yielded nothing. Were the NPT/IAEA not booted out of Iraq by Sadaam
    yes they where, but there was no evidence for a wmd program. Otherwise Hans Blix would not have been so opposed to the invasion. America invaded on the lie that Sadam posses the capability to launch WMD's against the united states. When in reality they where nowhere close to that.

    This is completely oposit to the North Korean case btw where the IAEA saw signs of a nuclears weapon program and warned about it openly and got kicked out. There was no suprised involved with the north korean weapons program.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    OK, you are the president of the US, what would you offer Iran to stabilize the current situation. What do you think Iran wants? My opinion is that they want nuclear weapons to carry out their plans with Israel..at the very least the ability to hold that gun to Israel's head.
    I dont know. I am not a diplomat.

    I would probably sweeten the offer from the EU. I would be willing to talk about allowing Iran to enrichen there own uranium aslong as they offcourse go along with what they have signed. Uranium enrichmen is a right according to the NPT. If Iran allows inspection of the enrichment facilities and inspection of the reactor waste there is no way they can sneak away 25 kilo of highly enrichened uranium or substantial amounts of plutonium. Because there is no sneaky way to do either. The reactor waste require big instalations to partition the plutonium from the other waste and enricheninguranium to 90% require different setups of the gas centrigues as far as I know(I dont know anything about enrichment though).

    Basicly I would demand from them exactly what they have agreed and signed to. If they refused that there is no way Russia or China could disagree on sanctions.

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    The IAEA has called for more view into the Irani nuclear program. The first priority of both the EU and the US would be to make sure they do just that. Halting Irans enrichment program is less important.

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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Damien_III
    Yes apparent "Zero" nukes you have to remember Israel is much smaller than Iran so 5-10 nukes droped on Israiel will be far more detructive for that country than 5-10 droped on Iran. Although I dont think Israiel have 200+nukes. Mabe 20 to 50 but not 200. I am open to evedence on this as I realy have no idear.
    http://fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

    I also doubt Iran has the delivery capabilities to send a nuke like Israel can.

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