Is excessive cardio dangerous?

[hawthorne1010]

I'm new to all this and am considering a cycle of deca just to dip my toe in the water, so to speak. Perhaps 8-12 week cycle.

I am a marathon runner. I run 40-50 miles per week and as much as 60 miles in a week during peak training. I started running marathons two years ago after breaking my wrist and having to give up lifting for a few months. I've run more than seven in the past two years.

Now I want the best of both worlds. I used to be, and to some extent still am, a gym rat. I'm 5'10", 215 pounds and ran a sub-4-hour marathon two months ago. I'm in my mid-30s, in case that's important.

I guess to my question before I ramble too much: Am I risking any kind of heart damage or other cardiovascular damage?

I realize excessive cardio can/will negate some or a lot of the gains, and any input about that is appreciated. Mostly, I want to make sure I don't do permanent damage to my heart or other vital bits or, at worst, drop dead.

I do realize running and lifting to bulk up are contradictory, but I am a walking contradiction. Any input is appreciated. Thanks.

[hawthorne1010]

Well, after reading for another couple of hours, I'm starting to see some of the ignorance of my post. Apparently, deca is not what is recommended for a first-timer. Looks like test is the way to go for an initial cycle. Any specific form the most recommended?

I apologize if I insulted anyone's intelligence. As I said, I'm new to this and am just trying to find my way. My initial question still stands, though, as I'm concerned of the impact of going through a regime could have on my heart and anything else with running 40 to 60 miles per week.

Btw, I've been lifting at least 20 years off and on, so I know my way around the gym. The largest I've been was a little more than 250 pounds and I've fought as big as 245 pounds.

Again, thanks.

[MartyMcFly]

Well, after reading for another couple of hours, I'm starting to see some of the ignorance of my post. Apparently, deca is not what is recommended for a first-timer. Looks like test is the way to go for an initial cycle. Any specific form the most recommended?

I apologize if I insulted anyone's intelligence. As I said, I'm new to this and am just trying to find my way. My initial question still stands, though, as I'm concerned of the impact of going through a regime could have on my heart and anything else with running 40 to 60 miles per week.

Btw, I've been lifting at least 20 years off and on, so I know my way around the gym. The largest I've been was a little more than 250 pounds and I've fought as big as 245 pounds.

Again, thanks.

Good job reading and learning. A lot of cardio will eat up muscle. What is your BF% if you run that much. Post lifting routine diet etc and that will help in making a decision.

[hawthorne1010]

Good job reading and learning. A lot of cardio will eat up muscle. What is your BF% if you run that much. Post lifting routine diet etc and that will help in making a decision.

There is a lot of fascinating information on this site. It just takes a while to find and get through. Like most folks, I'm apt to just try to dive right in.

Yea, in the 2.5 years I've been running like this, I've learned that it will indeed eat up muscle. I do training runs of 20+ miles a couple months in from a race. I ran almost 1,500 miles this year.

My body fat percent percentage, I can only guess. I'm thinking 17-20 percent. Maybe this picture will help:



I weighed about 203 pounds in that photo, which was two years ago just after I was able to start lifting again following the broken wrist. Right now, I weigh about 215, so add a couple pounds of mucscle and some fat. I'm definitely "thicker" now. I've been able to make some muscle gains with lifting, but I often feel like I'm just maintaining. My workouts have been spotty lately, though, just because I need to motivate more.

Lifting routine: I try to lift 4x/week. I work chest, shoulders and back together one day and bis and tris the next. I change up the types of excercises I do the following days. As an aside, I usually try to run several hours before I lift. Usually, I run at lunch and lift after work.

And yes, I know I didn't mention legs. Don't do em. <ducking for cover>

Diet: I'm a poor eater, but I've tried to eat better to keep up with running 4-5 times a week and lifting 3-4 times a week. Breakfast is almost always oatmeal with natural peanut butter. Lunch is often some sort of turkey sandwich on wheat or multi-grain bread or pasta or something. Dinner can be anything from rice and chicken to a chicken and spinach salad (I don't bother with lettuce, just fresh spinach) with kidney beans or even a couple hamburger patties (no buns) with cheese, ketchup and mustard.

But I have my vices -- pizza, beer, etc.

[KickBoxer]

Diet: I'm a poor eater, but I've tried to eat better to keep up with running 4-5 times a week and lifting 3-4 times a week. Breakfast is almost always oatmeal with natural peanut butter. Lunch is often some sort of turkey sandwich on wheat or multi-grain bread or pasta or something. Dinner can be anything from rice and chicken to a chicken and spinach salad (I don't bother with lettuce, just fresh spinach) with kidney beans or even a couple hamburger patties (no buns) with cheese, ketchup and mustard.

But I have my vices -- pizza, beer, etc.

Bro, u need to get ur diet in tune before getting on to aas, and if i were u - i dont mean to sound rude by the way - i would try to get down to at least 12% bf, otherwise ur wasting ur time. do some more research as well man.

[Booz]

Welcome to the board mate,good to see that you are actually reading and trying to learn yourself which is always a good start here,far too many members just dont bother..............
IMO you must sort out your diet before jumping into AAS usage as diet is key to building or cutting watever you do,steroids are just the finishing touch.......
as for a 1st cycle test enanthate is what i would recommend,a typical 500mg per week for 12 weeks with proper post cycle therapy after the cycle........

TRAIN YOUR LEGS.......................

[Seattle Junk]

I hate to say it but if you are strictly in this for looking better then a 2 week cycle of DNP might be the solution for you right now. Not AAS like others are saying. It's always good practice to be at a low bf% before starting AAS. AAS works much better when starting as lean as possible.

But scratch the DNP for now and just dial in your diet and do a hour of cardio in the AM and a hour in the PM after weight training. Or reversed if you weight train in the AM.

Anytime we want to build new muscle mass a certain amount of bf comes along with it. But that is also limited by diet and cardio. Diet and cardio is the theme for you right now, not AAS.

[Seattle Junk]

Welcome to the board mate,good to see that you are actually reading and trying to learn yourself which is always a good start here,far too many members just dont bother..............
IMO you must sort out your diet before jumping into AAS usage as diet is key to building or cutting watever you do,steroids are just the finishing touch.......
as for a 1st cycle test enanthate is what i would recommend,a typical 500mg per week for 12 weeks with proper post cycle therapy after the cycle........

TRAIN YOUR LEGS.......................

Waddup Booz. Good to see ya mate. I've been working my ass off that's why I haven't had the pleasure hanging out here over the past few months. I started a new business last year and we're ramping up. I eat, go to work, eat, work some more, eat, train at night, eat, go to bed. Oh yeah, give the woman something to brag about if don't fall asleep first. Haha, I'm a idiot....

[Booz]

Waddup Booz. Good to see ya mate. I've been working my ass off that's why I haven't had the pleasure hanging out here over the past few months. I started a new business last year and we're ramping up. I eat, go to work, eat, work some more, eat, train at night, eat, go to bed. Oh yeah, give the woman something to brag about if don't fall asleep first. Haha, I'm a idiot....

yup your an idiot.........glad to see you are back mate........

[Seattle Junk]

yup your an idiot.........glad to see you are back mate........

Thanks bro. 11K posts? Do you pay people to post for you when you are sleeping? haha....

[tranzit]

Decca alone personaly i never suggest bloating and mood swings are common on a decca only cycle aside from the fact that you will be shutting your test down hard core.

For you my advice is a small cycle 12 weeks

Test e or test c 1-12 250 mg - 500 mg a week
winstrol 1-8 30-50 mg every day 1 hour before you train.
No clen, or anything that raises your heart rate what you are trying to do is build stamina and strength but you dont want to blow up. after this PCT.. nolva or whatever you choose for the proper time.
Another thing you might want to try is adding in something like NO2 for training it seems to work great for blood flow and getting oxegen to the proper places. thisis just my opinion on what you should do i dont run unless chased.. and i dont get chased so i dont run. but i do have two years of A&P under my belt and two expired personal training certs so i have an idea of what you need to do. Quick twitch isnt the answer for marathon stamina is.

[Seattle Junk]

I don't know why but NO2 makes me fart. Does that happen to others?

[tranzit]

LOL YES HAHAHA also if you do not hydrate like crazy you will cramp.

[Seattle Junk]

LOL YES HAHAHA also if you do not hydrate like crazy you will cramp.

Getting ready for the snow today?

[shrpskn]

IMO, excessive cardio can be bad if you are overweight and/or out of shape. If so, start out easy and give your body time to adjust.

Excessive cardio can also be detrimental to muscular development as you may burn up too much nutrients and calories that are necessary to develop or sustain muscle mass.

[Seattle Junk]

IMO, excessive cardio can be bad if you are overweight and/or out of shape. If so, start out easy and give your body time to adjust.

Excessive cardio can also be detrimental to muscular development as you may burn up too much nutrients and calories that are necessary to develop or sustain muscle mass.

Yes, you are correct. If you are quite out of shape you should start with maybe 10-15 mins ed then work up from there.

I just don't believe in muscle building when you are trying to lose a large amount of bf, just maintaince and try not to lose lbm. When you start the AAS cycle with lower bf and even at a bordering catabolic state, your receptors seem to soak up the AAS. Very similiar to the rebound effect after a DNP cycle but greater following a sustained period of dieting and cardio then AAS. Remember that you have muscle memory and the following AAS cycle will replace and build new muscle. So I wouldn't even worry too much about losing a little lbm with the trade off of losing excessive bf. That's from my personal experience and of course, IMO.

Continue you cardio and dieting during AAS of course.

[hawthorne1010]

IMO, excessive cardio can be bad if you are overweight and/or out of shape. If so, start out easy and give your body time to adjust.

Excessive cardio can also be detrimental to muscular development as you may burn up too much nutrients and calories that are necessary to develop or sustain muscle mass.

I sincerely appreciate all the responses and advice. Thanks for taking the time. I am impressed by the amount and quality of information available in the forum. I've been told before that getting my diet dialed in is key, although from your responses it seems that I've underestimated the importance.

As far as the excessive cardio question is concerned, I may need to explain myself better. I'm not asking about excessive cardio alone. I already do that. I'm that idiot you see running everyday in the rain, snow, plagues of locusts and worse. If you saw me out and about, you'd not think I was a runner let alone that I can rip off 20 miles at better than a 9-minute-per-mile pace. I literally eat 5-mile runs for lunch, shower and go back to work.

Most normal people think I'm nuts, but that's cool. I used to, and still do, refer to "crazy-a$$ed runners" when I see some fool out running in the rain or something.

My concern is if I take AS and continue to run 40 or 50 miles a week, do I run an increased risk of damaging my heart or any other vital organs? Basically, the heart is a muscle. I don't know if it might enlarge to a dangerous point or cause some long-term cardio damage if I'm taking AS, and that's my main concern.

Secondarily, I do realize that all this running sure as heck doesn't promote muscle gain from lifting, and I know it would mitigate the impact of using AS at least somewhat. To what degree I'm not sure, but I'm willing to accept that. Just as I accept my current muscle mass slows me down and any extra weight would not make me faster and likely would slow me down. As I said before, I want to see if I can have the best of both worlds -- a monster that runs crazy distances.

I'm curious to see what kind of distance-running monster I can create out of myself. I'm not going to be out there beating Kenyans, but I'd like to cast one hell of a shadow over them and scare the sh!t outta them!

[hawthorne1010]

Bro, u need to get ur diet in tune before getting on to aas, and if i were u - i dont mean to sound rude by the way - i would try to get down to at least 12% bf, otherwise ur wasting ur time. do some more research as well man.

You don't sound rude at all. You're being honest as was I when I said my diet wasn't all that great. Honestly, I don't pay attention in minute detail of grams of this or that or even calories for that matter as to what I'm eating. I do try to eat foods that will "fuel" me better.

A serious question, and this may be stupid, but how do you measure body fat percentage? I know doctors and trainers use calipers and there are body fat scales, which I'm not sure are all that accurate. Is it as simple as going to your doctor and asking him to measure your body fat percentage?

[duramaxedge]

i noticed hawthorne you said that you run several hours before you lift.. Ive heard this is bad .. they say you instantly start burning fat when your body is doing strength training.. so it is best to save your cardio for after lifting..

[hawthorne1010]

Decca alone personaly i never suggest bloating and mood swings are common on a decca only cycle aside from the fact that you will be shutting your test down hard core.

For you my advice is a small cycle 12 weeks

Test e or test c 1-12 250 mg - 500 mg a week
winstrol 1-8 30-50 mg every day 1 hour before you train.
No clen, or anything that raises your heart rate what you are trying to do is build stamina and strength but you dont want to blow up. after this PCT.. nolva or whatever you choose for the proper time.
Another thing you might want to try is adding in something like NO2 for training it seems to work great for blood flow and getting oxegen to the proper places. thisis just my opinion on what you should do i dont run unless chased.. and i dont get chased so i dont run. but i do have two years of A&P under my belt and two expired personal training certs so i have an idea of what you need to do. Quick twitch isnt the answer for marathon stamina is.

Thanks for the response. Your post, along with others in the forum has convinced me deca is a nogo for the first time.

I'm not interested in AS to improve running performance or stamina. If it does, that's a bonus. Running will keep up my marathon stamina. If getting bigger slows me down or impacts my stamina, so be it.

You're correct in that I don't think I want anything that's going to send my heart rate soaring. That NO2 suggestion is intriguing on its own. Interesting.

[hawthorne1010]

i noticed hawthorne you said that you run several hours before you lift.. Ive heard this is bad .. they say you instantly start burning fat when your body is doing strength training.. so it is best to save your cardio for after lifting..

Yea, I've heard mixed things on that subject, so I'm not sure. I've never gotten definitive advice on the impact of distance running on lifting and vice versa. Probably because there aren't many scrawny distance runners interested in serious lifting as there aren't many monstrous lifters interested in distance running.

I guess my point was that I don't usually run several miles and then immediately go to the gym and lift. Although once I ran 14 miles and finished my run at my gym and lifted. I think I was just on a runner's high and felt like lifting.

[spicyer]

I sincerely appreciate all the responses and advice. Thanks for taking the time. I am impressed by the amount and quality of information available in the forum. I've been told before that getting my diet dialed in is key, although from your responses it seems that I've underestimated the importance.

As far as the excessive cardio question is concerned, I may need to explain myself better. I'm not asking about excessive cardio alone. I already do that. I'm that idiot you see running everyday in the rain, snow, plagues of locusts and worse. If you saw me out and about, you'd not think I was a runner let alone that I can rip off 20 miles at better than a 9-minute-per-mile pace. I literally eat 5-mile runs for lunch, shower and go back to work.

Most normal people think I'm nuts, but that's cool. I used to, and still do, refer to "crazy-a$$ed runners" when I see some fool out running in the rain or something.

My concern is if I take AS and continue to run 40 or 50 miles a week, do I run an increased risk of damaging my heart or any other vital organs? Basically, the heart is a muscle. I don't know if it might enlarge to a dangerous point or cause some long-term cardio damage if I'm taking AS, and that's my main concern.

Secondarily, I do realize that all this running sure as heck doesn't promote muscle gain from lifting, and I know it would mitigate the impact of using AS at least somewhat. To what degree I'm not sure, but I'm willing to accept that. Just as I accept my current muscle mass slows me down and any extra weight would not make me faster and likely would slow me down. As I said before, I want to see if I can have the best of both worlds -- a monster that runs crazy distances.

I'm curious to see what kind of distance-running monster I can create out of myself. I'm not going to be out there beating Kenyans, but I'd like to cast one hell of a shadow over them and scare the sh!t outta them!

Interesting twist that your thread took. I was wondering if a couple people even read the opening thread. To your question I happen to have a friend who got "hooked" on running and is 6'3 and about 250. He cycles once or twice per year and does blood work before and after each cycle. I've also had an acquaintance who was a runner and about 6' 160 or so and keeled over from a heart attack, never did a lick of steroids. I think you need to pick your cycle and go. Your diet will dictate alot of what you achieve, so by all means give yourself that. Keep us posted and Good Luck!

[hawthorne1010]

Welcome to the board mate,good to see that you are actually reading and trying to learn yourself which is always a good start here,far too many members just dont bother..............
IMO you must sort out your diet before jumping into AAS usage as diet is key to building or cutting watever you do,steroids are just the finishing touch.......
as for a 1st cycle test enanthate is what i would recommend,a typical 500mg per week for 12 weeks with proper post cycle therapy after the cycle........

TRAIN YOUR LEGS.......................

Thanks for the welcome. I post on running message boards and have gotten advice much in the same way, so I know how valuable drawing on others' experience is. Actually, others draw on my experience at the running boards as well.

I've spent about 10 hours so far reading the board and I'm trying to soak up as much as I can so I don't ask stupid questions. But it is a lot to take in, so thanks for bearing with me.

Train my legs, eh? I know, I know. Have you ever ran 50 miles in 4 days and tried to throw in some proper lower body weight training?

Actually, strengthening the quads and hamstrings helps protect the knees while running.

[hawthorne1010]

Interesting twist that your thread took. I was wondering if a couple people even read the opening thread. To your question I happen to have a friend who got "hooked" on running and is 6'3 and about 250. He cycles once or twice per year and does blood work before and after each cycle. I've also had an acquaintance who was a runner and about 6' 160 or so and keeled over from a heart attack, never did a lick of steroids. I think you need to pick your cycle and go. Your diet will dictate alot of what you achieve, so by all means give yourself that. Keep us posted and Good Luck!

Yea, I've seen people go down right in front of me while running marathons that, by all appearances, look way more fit to be running 26.2 miles than I. I just ran the Philly Marathon in November and finished under 4 hours. I saw a quite of few people getting medical attention on the side of the road, including a youngster who was about 20 years old and maybe 70-80 pounds lighter than me.

As far as "hooked" on running, that is usually the way of it. I never in my life expected to be a runner. Always hated running. But I broke my wrist in the spring of 2004 and couldn't lift or fight. I figured I'd try to train to run my local marathon just to scratch off that list of "Things to Do Before I Die." Never expected to get hooked, but hooked I got -- big time.

Btw, you do see where I was coming from in my opening. All the advice about starting and what to start with and how to start is very, very helpful. But I didn't know if anyone had any anecdotal evidence of any harmful impacts AS can have for someone who runs a lot.

Thanks, man. I appreciate the response.

[spicyer]

Hard to be 100 percent certain. World class athletes have used steroids to give them an advantage and some have brought themselves back from serious injury and disease using them. I don't think your excessive cardio will create a problem with the aas, I'm curious (but definetely hoping it won't) to see how more bulk and possibly bloat and such may limit your running ability.

[guest589745]

Excessive anything is dangerous, hence the term excessive.

[stupidhippo]

welcome aboard... many questions u had..
First of all what kind of figthing u did? MMA? any major events?
Secondly, u looking pretty good considering a u are natty.. I guess its good to lose some BF before cycling but IMO u are lean enough, ofcourse its good to be even leaner but u are no way too fat to cycle IMO... I dont know what ppl base this that u should be 12 % or under to do gear.. (never seen any reports about the gear beeing more effective, not even sure that gyno is likelier) Can excessive cardio be harmful? This is a more complex thing but most likely yes (but not very likely), I would assume that the heart can grow easier while on steroids (it can grow even without cardio while on gear) and that byitself can be dangerous. If u do excessive cardio + are on gear the chances of the heart enlargening more is bigger.. now that isnt necessarily that bad, but it does increase the risk of arrythmias and such... but if it was me I wouldnt worry about it too much since the risk aint that great, especially if ur heart is normal...

[S431M7]

I think some of the recommendation above are all worthy, however I'd insist you balance your good diet with your cardio routine.

[hawthorne1010]

welcome aboard... many questions u had..
First of all what kind of figthing u did? MMA? any major events?
Secondly, u looking pretty good considering a u are natty.. I guess its good to lose some BF before cycling but IMO u are lean enough, ofcourse its good to be even leaner but u are no way too fat to cycle IMO... I dont know what ppl base this that u should be 12 % or under to do gear.. (never seen any reports about the gear beeing more effective, not even sure that gyno is likelier) Can excessive cardio be harmful? This is a more complex thing but most likely yes (but not very likely), I would assume that the heart can grow easier while on steroids (it can grow even without cardio while on gear) and that byitself can be dangerous. If u do excessive cardio + are on gear the chances of the heart enlargening more is bigger.. now that isnt necessarily that bad, but it does increase the risk of arrythmias and such... but if it was me I wouldnt worry about it too much since the risk aint that great, especially if ur heart is normal...

I did some Golden Gloves about 10 years ago in the Cleveland and Youngstown areas and as late as 2004 fought in some local "Toughman"-like events in those same areas that were more geared toward MMA. There was no grappling, but kicking, backfists and such were allowed. Never in any big events. Basically, I ain't all that good. Heh, I think part of it was being a 5'10" superheavy in GG and a heavy everywhere else.

Here's after losing in the semi-final when some dude name "The Plow Boy" broke my nose. Ref finally stopped it because I lost too much blood. Apparently, not enough. I weighed in for that tournament at 245 pounds (and they were being nice). In that photo up above, I'm like 203 pounds.

Funny enough, I mentioned the broken wrist. I did that playing softball two days after being knocked out in a fight. I swear I've been hurt worse playing in the beer leagues than in the ring.

As far as the excess cardio is concerned, that's not going to stop. I'm training for a marathon in May. Today I ran 12 miles in just under 9 minutes per mile as a training run.

As I said, I used to be a total gym rat, but the broken wrist turned me into a runner. I've gotten back to the gym and am trying to get the best of both worlds. I know I'm not going to win a marathon, that just ain't happenin'. I'm lookin' to make myself into a marathon-runnin' freak, basically. I wanna see what kind of monster I can make outta what the gods have given me, which is more than most.

Btw, thanks for the welcome. Pleasure to meet you as well as everyone else.

[hawthorne1010]

Excessive anything is dangerous, hence the term excessive.

Indeed, but excessive always seems much more fun, doesn't it?

Basically, I realize running two or three marathons and 1,500 miles in a year is a bit much (excessive, if you will), so I just wanted to be clear.

I appreciate your response, though. I've seen you in many a thread and I'm honored you visited mine.

[hawthorne1010]

Hard to be 100 percent certain. World class athletes have used steroids to give them an advantage and some have brought themselves back from serious injury and disease using them. I don't think your excessive cardio will create a problem with the aas, I'm curious (but definetely hoping it won't) to see how more bulk and possibly bloat and such may limit your running ability.

Spicyer, first off, thank for the reply. And that's the only thing I'm concerned with, whether the aas would create a health problem, specifically the heart, given that I run so much. I'm pretty sure if I put on 10-15 pounds of muscle, it won't help my running, but I expect that. 10-15 pounds of anything is 10-15 pounds more I have to carry over 26.2 miles. I know one thing I've read about deca is that people have said it helps their knees and joints, which would be a nice benefit. But deca looks like something down the line, not for the first cycle.

However, I will say that I just ran my best marathon to date in November and it was about the heaviest I've weighed running a marathon -- 215 pounds. I'm sure my legs got used to carrying the weight during training, which was a mixture of muscle and belly.

So what I'm getting out of this thread is I need to nail down my diet and jettison some tonnage. I got that and, honestly, have been working on it before I poked my head in here.

As far as a first cycle, 500 of test-e is the way to go? Any thoughts?

[hawthorne1010]

I think some of the recommendation above are all worthy, however I'd insist you balance your good diet with your cardio routine.

I've definitely heard the diet thing. When you mention the cardio routine, are you saying I need to cut it back? I'd be willing to bet good money that no one here does as much cardio in a week than I do, which is the reason I posted my question. I do so much, I'm concerned about heart enlargement or something.

Thanks, bro, appreciate the input.

[spicyer]

Spicyer, first off, thank for the reply. And that's the only thing I'm concerned with, whether the aas would create a health problem, specifically the heart, given that I run so much. I'm pretty sure if I put on 10-15 pounds of muscle, it won't help my running, but I expect that. 10-15 pounds of anything is 10-15 pounds more I have to carry over 26.2 miles. I know one thing I've read about deca is that people have said it helps their knees and joints, which would be a nice benefit. But deca looks like something down the line, not for the first cycle.

However, I will say that I just ran my best marathon to date in November and it was about the heaviest I've weighed running a marathon -- 215 pounds. I'm sure my legs got used to carrying the weight during training, which was a mixture of muscle and belly.

So what I'm getting out of this thread is I need to nail down my diet and jettison some tonnage. I got that and, honestly, have been working on it before I poked my head in here.

As far as a first cycle, 500 of test-e is the way to go? Any thoughts?

I like Test E, ok actually I love it! Many will disagree and have their own faves, but for your objective i believe you will like it, just be sure that you understand starting at a little higher bf, and not taking a good deal of the fat from your diet, will not get you what you want. Good Luck!