Like doing my Test E 500mg/week and EQ 400mg/week, for that cycle most people say you have to wait 2 weeks after your last injection before you start nolvadex and etc. Why is that?
Like doing my Test E 500mg/week and EQ 400mg/week, for that cycle most people say you have to wait 2 weeks after your last injection before you start nolvadex and etc. Why is that?
So that the long ester of the Test has time to leave your system. PCT is then used to restart your natural Test production but that wont happen if there is a whole lot of synthetic Test floating around and Test E needs about 14 days to clear. Test Prop on the other hand just needs three days to clear.
Thats what i was going to sayOriginally Posted by Kale
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There is no evidence that shows any kind of proof for waiting for the ester to have fully released.
In other words, adding in your PCT drugs can get their blood levels up while the AAS levels are falling. This way, you have already reached a stable blood plasma concentration of the PCT meds by the time you have no AAS in your system. Many PCT drugs act on the negative feedback loop itself (AI's for example)...so by adding them in before your blood plasma levels of AAS are at zero, you may begin to inhibit the negative feedback loop while the AAS are declining, thereby bringing up your natural HPTA more quickly than if you waited until the AAS were totally out of your body.
Waiting for the blood plasma level of steroids to decline before adding in PCT drugs is faulty logic, and 100% incorrect.
Do you have studies that show that this is correct ?Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts
I have a study (somewhere) showing that the addition of a SERM to a 100mg/week dose of Test E. will prevent it from totally shutting you down (which normally it would). In my opinion, that shows that you can use ancillary meds concurrantly with steroids, and begin recovery before the AAS are totally out of your system.Originally Posted by Kale
I doubt that this is useful during huge cycles, but certainly (as per my reccomendations for PCT) there's no problem with simply waiting a week instead of trying to totally outlast the ester's half life (or active life). I believe that simply waiting for it to begin it's decline is going to be fine...also, it stands to reason that having steady state blood plasma levels by the time the AAS are out of you is better than introducing them at that point, and waiting for them to build up.
I also don't see why people wait for the half life to be over...is there some reason that 1/2 the dose of your shot is the optimal time to start PCT? I mean....if you shoot 250mgs then wait for the half life to be over, then you have 125mgs in you. But what if your last shot is 500mgs? Then you still have the 250mgs floating around when you start PCT...it's nonsensical, although at the time this idea was put forth, it looked kind of sexy and gave people a time-line for PCT, which was probably comforting (though incorrect).
Last edited by Property of Steroid.com; 01-23-2007 at 06:30 AM.
IMHO i would rather start pct when all compounds have cleared otherwise it would be like swimming with your wellies on
Why do you feel it doesn't contribute to recovery to eliminate part of the negative feedback loop prior to having the AAS leave your system?Originally Posted by marcus300
If we get rid of part of the negative feedback loop while the AAS are clearing the system (instead of after), then ought it not provide a quicker recovery?
Can you explain to me, in what way, does keeping the negative feedback loop active and uninhibited until the AAS clears your system, contribute to recovery?
Last edited by Property of Steroid.com; 01-23-2007 at 06:43 AM.
AR brings a good point. Maybe taking both sides of the argument would be the best way to do PCT, like start it 1 week or 1 1/2 week after last test-e shot. There fore ending PCT earlier. I will give this a try in my PCT for the cycle im currently running.
I think in my PCT article, this is what I reccomend.Originally Posted by pavlenko
What are you guys talking about. If your running test-e 500mg and you start pct 14 days after last injections. The hormone is not clear of the body yet. Test-e has a 10.4 day half life.
Hey Markus, you have a pic of Ruhl up dont you? Your last name is not Ruhl is it?
Interesting point.Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts
But it doesnt stand to reason when the average cycler (Including a Testosetrone dose) is 500mg/wk, 5x what the stuides states.
Also, which SERM is it?
Surely it would be better to add a fairly high dose AI and compound that greatly reduces SHBG in this gap of 14 days, 10.4 whatever...? Then lower the dose to your normal protocol dose and intriduce further SERM's/AI's and HCG if included.
I like to avoid all of this debate by doing short esters the last 2 weeks and then jumping on PCT.
I agree with anthony!!! my trainer and all our guys at our gym do the same thing wait only a couple of days to 1 week to start pct!
Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts
I AGREE 100%..........the PCT drugs start to stimulate test production without regards to your test level.so it would be beneficial to have sustained levels of your PCT drug regimen,before your synthetic test levels begin to drop.why wait until it drops?(or"clears")........ i never could understand why people would follow this,its so counterproductive.
This is actually exactly the question I wanted to ask...So I am guessing the answer is wait 1-2 weeks after a cycle of test. Another point would be is for how long to stay on pct?
Why do people follow this? Because once upon a time, some "good bro" said this is the way to go...and then it became dogma in our community.Originally Posted by BGMKE7
Good info. I always wondered about this actually.....
Athony please post your study which you say you have got somewhere, sounds intresting
Hmmm to build up your naty test levels while the synthetics fall off V.S. waiting for synthetic to be gone and then starting up your naty test....
hmm sounds like im going with what Roberts said , seems better then waiting till you have no test in your system....
No problem. I'll look for that while you answer the question I asked above, concerning the negative feedback loop.Originally Posted by marcus300
It seems simpler to end the cycle using a short ester and/or oral to me.
The day after the final oral or short estered androgen begin PCT. Or ramp the dose of your AI, introduce and SERM (If your not using onn). If your using a SERM, ramp the dose. Run a compound with a high binding affinity to SHBG, Proviron 50mg/ED srpings to mind, then run HCG 5-7 days after.
Bingo.
I got myself a new PCT protocol!
I yust run an AI and Serm all thrue the cycle and PCT, it works good. Next Pct I will put in Myogenx too.
In Bill Roberts (2 on 4 off) cycle case study, with...(I dont remember hes name) Anyway, hes client where using Trenbolone and Dianabol at 50 mg ed of each. He was using clomid and cytadren as anti-estrogens. After 2 weeks hes client did not have completely shut down T-levels. "Maybe" androgen exposure alone is not enough to totally supress the HPTA in moderat cycles.
Preventing the hypotalamus to get exposed to estrogen might be a big advantage on and off cycle.
1. In studies examining breast cancer patients, better results with aromatase inhibition are see by switching from between type 1 and 2 AI's, rather than increasing the dose of the same one. I recommend Arimidex during a cycle.Originally Posted by Swifto
2. When you switch your AI at the end of your cycle (start of your PCT), reccomend using Aromasin because of reasons in the statement above, as well as the fact that it lowers SHBH.
I think if you really look at PCT - and logically pursue the best protocol (*as you're doing) - you'll end up with something looking a lot like my pct protocol. Following the reasoning you're following now, it's actually more logical to conclude with my pct, than any other, I believe...
My current PCT protocol is almost identical to yours including Proviron 50mg/ED to mask a decrease in sex drive and further reduce SHBG.Originally Posted by Anthony Roberts
Point one sounds interesting.
So...
- End cycle with short ester and/or oral
- Introduce new AI, different from one used in cycle (If using on)
- Introduce SERM or increase dose slightly
- Introduce Proviron 50mg/ED (dosage for me)
- Run for 5-7 days
- Begin HCG, Lower AI's/SERM's to PCT dosage and follow usual PCT protocol.
yup i switch from letro to aromasin.....
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