My Doctor told me...

[DHew]

I have a friend who has informed his doctor about his aas usage. The doctor didnt complain about them or anything, simply asked 2 questions...

1) Can you still get it up?
2) Can you still ejaculate?

He says as long as you can still do these things your body is FINE. He also negated the use of milk thistle because he said "As far as what I know, no studies have shown that milk thistle helps your liver in any way." HE says dont even bother with it...?

[Serotonin]

Finding studies to back up herbal/supplemental remedies has always been a challenge. People think b-12 increases appetite, but there is no empirical evidence that shows this is really correct. (at least that I'm aware of, unless you're anemic or malnourished)

From what I understand of the liver, if something is hepatotoxic then I don't see how any herbal shit you take can somehow make it untoxic? Herbal companies will print whatever on their bottles to sell the crap but most of it hasn't been validated by the FDA and it probably never will.

p.s. That doctor sounds like a moron.

[muscle_20]

Hmm it would be nice if those two things meant you were in good health!

[Tesla]

most of the studies the doctor was referring to are funding by major pharmaceutical corporations to help them peddle their products. These studies are market driven. There's simply no market for studies in herbal supplements, which is why we may never see any great studies on milk thistle and others.

[Chitown Raider]

Hmm, my doctor never asked me those two questions. He just asked if I was planning on competing and he said if I was just taking AAS to look better then it wasn't worth the risk. If I could just get the doctor to get me a few prescriptions life would be great.

[taiboxa]

milkthistle never did shit for me.. now SAWLPALMETTOE is the shit for prostate and thats like the only thing i take right now.

[BuffDJ]

Not to take a thing away from MD's put after medical school most physicians do continued education within there selected specialty and don't do much research into things outside of that.
Tesla hit the nail on the head when it comes to prescription meds. Most meds given out in dr's offices are samples that there medical group might be helping out with new products. Remember the money is in the med not the cure.
Buff

[Brent_G]

yeah i thought milk thistle was worthless as well. Pee was always the same color haha

[bpm1]

just a small tidbit, traditional doctors will almost always crap on anything natural or homeopathic but that doesnt mean there arent legitimate and effective natural remedies around cause there r a mountain of them, i could give an eff what a traditional doctor thinks all they r is drug pushers IMHO!

[Serotonin]

Yea, that may be true but the alkylated groups on oral steroids are still gonna fck your liver in half no matter how many weeds you eat.

[Chitown Raider]

just a small tidbit, traditional doctors will almost always crap on anything natural or homeopathic but that doesnt mean there arent legitimate and effective natural remedies around cause there r a mountain of them, i could give an eff what a traditional doctor thinks all they r is drug pushers IMHO!

Exactly, I remember roughly about 12 years ago my Mom got so sick she was bedwritten for 2 months and the only answer the doctor's could come up with was to do surgery on her thyroid glands. My Mom declined and went to a Holistic practinioner for about 4 months and now to this day she is doing great. The 1 problem I found is that most doctor's will only give you a band-aid to temporarily fix the problem instead of finding the root of the problem.

[skeldno]

I have a friend who has informed his doctor about his aas usage. The doctor didnt complain about them or anything, simply asked 2 questions...

1) Can you still get it up?
2) Can you still ejaculate?

He says as long as you can still do these things your body is FINE. He also negated the use of milk thistle because he said "As far as what I know, no studies have shown that milk thistle helps your liver in any way." HE says dont even bother with it...?

IM SUPER HEALTHY!!!!!

[Adam F]

Yea, that may be true but the alkylated groups on oral steroids are still gonna fck your liver in half no matter how many weeds you eat.

Please provide studies where drinking hard liquior is worse for 1 night compared to a MIN 4 week cycle of any oral cycle. Anyone is to post liver values for this.

I have a feeling you are Parroting information with no blood tests on liver values to back this claim. Drinking (For Example) is more dangerous. Please note i am not being a a-hole (No flameing), but having done a 8 week cycle of T-bol, 60MG's Ed (Pretty mild) and having liver values tested in blood work came back with normal values. No liver supplements

[Mista Massive]

Please provide studies where drinking hard liquior is worse for 1 night compared to a MIN 4 week cycle of any oral cycle. Anyone is to post liver values for this.

I have a feeling you are Parroting information with no blood tests on liver values to back this claim. Drinking (For Example) is more dangerous. Please note i am not being a a-hole (No flameing), but having done a 8 week cycle of T-bol, 60MG's Ed (Pretty mild) and having liver values tested in blood work came back with normal values. No liver supplements

he never mentioned anything about alcohol being worse. in fact, i never saw a mention of alcohol at ALL!!!

[Adam F]

he never mentioned anything about alcohol being worse. in fact, i never saw a mention of alcohol at ALL!!!

Doesnt matter. Point being he is over stating the truth. Giving a simple comaprison of a night on hard liquior compared to a mild oral AAS Cycle. Tired of this parroting BS. Nice to see you Mista Massive chime in on this thread with a pointless post Your liver being cut in half give me a break!

[Mista Massive]

he was merely trying to state a point that the herbal liver supplements do nothing while taking oral steroids.

i don't know why you are bringing the liquor into it

but of course if you wanna take it the wrong way and make something out of nothing, then you can go right ahead and do that all by yourself.

[Adam F]

Yea, that may be true but the alkylated groups on oral steroids are still gonna fck your liver in half no matter how many weeds you eat.

This is my point and all im saying. It's bullshit. I am simply making a comparison to liquior and AAS on the liver for the readers sake. The misconception is obsceure. Many people worry about their liver when on AAS, but go drink all night. Let's see who takes liver support at the bar. Get my drift?

Sorry not trying to take off topic Mista just making a valid point. People act if Oral AAS is the devil to your liver. Their are many more substances that can do as much or more to your liver.

[Adam F]

[QUOTE=Mista Massive]he was merely trying to state a point that the herbal liver supplements do nothing while taking oral steroids.


He was making a point, but again that is wrong. I dont think I have to explain myself here.

[Mista Massive]

This is my point and all im saying. It's bullshit. I am simply making a comparison to liquior and AAS on the liver for the readers sake. The misconception is obsceure. Many people worry about their liver when on AAS, but go drink all night. Let's see who takes liver support at the bar. Get my drift?

Sorry not trying to take off topic Mista just making a valid point. People act if Oral AAS is the devil to your liver. Their are many more substances that can do as much or more to your liver.

i agree

[Serotonin]

Please provide studies where drinking hard liquior is worse for 1 night compared to a MIN 4 week cycle of any oral cycle. Anyone is to post liver values for this.

I have a feeling you are Parroting information with no blood tests on liver values to back this claim. Drinking (For Example) is more dangerous. Please note i am not being a a-hole (No flameing), but having done a 8 week cycle of T-bol, 60MG's Ed (Pretty mild) and having liver values tested in blood work came back with normal values. No liver supplements

Yea, that whole first paragraph means nothing to me since I don't even know what you're talking about! I'm hoping you were being sarcastic because who the hell would fund, or even conduct a study so pointless? And if you think some orals won't do damage to your liver if improperly dosed then I think you need to do some research on your own buddy.

So here is what you can do, Take 100mgs of Tbol every day for 3 months while not using anything else that is relatively hepatotoxic. Have your liver values tested.

Then, drink a 12 pack a day for 3 months and have your liver values tested.

Let us know the results.

[Titleist]

Here's a study for you gentlemen. This should put aside the whole 17-alpha-alkylated steroids will make you shit out your liver.

Note this study was conducted on Anadrol(arguably one of the most toxic orals).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100mg/day of Anadrol
Lastly, we find a study looking at the potent oral Steroid Used oxymetholone (Anadrol) . This steroid is thought by bodybuilders to be one of the most dangerous ones around, who as a group seem to treat it with both a lot of respect and caution. It is not common to find them exceeding the doses and intake durations of this investigation, making it a very good representation of real-world Anadrol usage. This study involves 31 elderly men, between the ages of 65 and 80. The men were divided into three groups, with each taking 50mg, 100mg or placebo daily for a 12-week period. Changes in lean body mass and strength were measured, as well as common markers of safety including total, LDL and HDL cholesterol levels, serum triglycerides, PSA (prostate-specific antigen) and liver enzymes. Muscle mass and strength gains were again relative to the dosage taken, with the end Steroid Used results being similar to those noted with 20 weeks of testosterone enanthate therapy at 125mg or SOOmg per week (about 6.4 and 12 Ib of lean body mass gained for the 50mg and 100mg doses respectively). There were no significant changes in PSA, total or LDL cholesterol values, or fasting triglycerides; however, there was a significant reduction in HDL cholesterol values (reduced 19 and 23 points for the 50mg and 100mg groups respectively). Liver enzymes (transaminases AST and ALT) increased only in the 100mg group, but the changes were not dramatic, and were not accompanied by hepatic enlargement or the development of any serious liver condition.

[plzr8]

Here's a study for you gentlemen. This should put aside the whole 17-alpha-alkylated steroids will make you shit out your liver.

Note this study was conducted on Anadrol(arguably one of the most toxic orals).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
100mg/day of Anadrol
Lastly, we find a study looking at the potent oral Steroid Used oxymetholone (Anadrol) . This steroid is thought by bodybuilders to be one of the most dangerous ones around, who as a group seem to treat it with both a lot of respect and caution. It is not common to find them exceeding the doses and intake durations of this investigation, making it a very good representation of real-world Anadrol usage. This study involves 31 elderly men, between the ages of 65 and 80. The men were divided into three groups, with each taking 50mg, 100mg or placebo daily for a 12-week period. Changes in lean body mass and strength were measured, as well as common markers of safety including total, LDL and HDL cholesterol levels, serum triglycerides, PSA (prostate-specific antigen) and liver enzymes. Muscle mass and strength gains were again relative to the dosage taken, with the end Steroid Used results being similar to those noted with 20 weeks of testosterone enanthate therapy at 125mg or SOOmg per week (about 6.4 and 12 Ib of lean body mass gained for the 50mg and 100mg doses respectively). There were no significant changes in PSA, total or LDL cholesterol values, or fasting triglycerides; however, there was a significant reduction in HDL cholesterol values (reduced 19 and 23 points for the 50mg and 100mg groups respectively). Liver enzymes (transaminases AST and ALT) increased only in the 100mg group, but the changes were not dramatic, and were not accompanied by hepatic enlargement or the development of any serious liver condition.

interesting study....but no offense, it means nothing without references...did you not copy/paste?

[Titleist]

interesting study....but no offense, it means nothing without references...did you not copy/paste?

None taken.

I have looked for references for that study for the past month. I can't find the original study anywhere.

I did C/P.

You are more than welcome to find the original study and post up the refs.

[Serotonin]

CLINICAL THERAPEUTICSVVOL. 23, NO. 6,200l

Review of Oxymetholone: A 17a-Alkylated
Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid

Andrew M. Pavlutos, MD,’ Oliver Fultz, BS,2 Matthew J. Monberg, BS,2
and Anil Vootkq PharmD2

‘Northside Family Medicine, Chicago, Illinois, and 2ACCESS Medical Group, Ltd,
Arlington Heights, Illinois

Hepatotoxicity Pages 8 and 9

Hepatotoxicity is a serious adverse
effect associated with the use of 17a-
alkylated anabolic-androgenic steroids.
Cholestatic jaundice is the major hepatic
side effect and is both dose and duration de-


A.M. PAVLATOS ET AL.
pendent. A small number of case reports
have been published documenting the oc-
currence of cholestatic jaundice in pa-
tients treated with oxymetholone.36T37
Functional liver failure and hepatic necro-
sis have not been observed with 17a-
alkylated anabolic-androgenic steroids
when a single agent was used, although
FDA labeling regulations require a class
statement about these risks. In addition,
oral preparations such as oxymetholone
have higher hepatotoxicity than parenteral
anabolic-androgenic steroids, because
higher drug concentrations are presented
to the liver on first pass.

Peliosis hepatis, an unusual cystic lesion
of the liver, is a rare side effect associated
with oxymetholone use.38v39 The occurrence
of peliosis hepatis is of greater clinical con-
cern after discontinuation of treatment than
before. Peliosis hepatis is a life-threatening
adverse event; for this reason, the FDA man-
dates inclusion of appropriate warnings in

the prescribing information for all anabolic-
androgenic steroids.
Benign and malignant hepatic tumor

formation has been associated with the
use of 17aalkylated anabolic-androgenic
steroids. The incidence of tumorigene-
sis appears to increase with the duration
and extent of exposure. Tumor regression
has occurred after cessation of anabolic-
androgenic steroid therapy.40,41

Physicians prescribing anabolic-andro-
genie steroids should be alert to symp-
toms of hepatotoxicity with long-term use
and monitor liver function periodically.42

This touches a tad on the hepatotoxic nature of the alkylation required of oral anabolics. I copied from a pdf so excuse the shitty format.

[bpm1]

well a little real world (mine at least) study i got my liver values tested yesterday after almost 2 wks on 100mg of d-rol ed and they were normal, right in the middle where they should be according to my doc (he a naturapathic physician).he knows my cycle and is going to test me accordingly to make sure all is well.anyway i was relieved to say the least because as stated we have been led to believe we r setting ourselves up for liver failure if we use too much of any given oral (slighhtly exagerated).anyway i have often wondered how hard they r on tha liver compared to drinkong or other things people do on a regular basis say like acetaminaphen which is pretty ruff stuff and people drink it down ed, what say u