Skinny boy starts trying ...

[sleepybum]

I have recently started working out (3 months ago) and have not since missed a single day at the gym. Have been following a strict diet since starting at the gym. Clearly noticeable results thus far (visible abdominals and respectable strength gains). Hope I'm on the right track.

Age: 21
Weight: 48kg/105 lbs
Height: 5'5
B/f: ~9%
Diet: Off meat except for fish, shellfish, mollusks and other crustacea
Cardio: 15 minutes/day; 5x/week
BMR: 1400

Typically eats 5 or 6 meals a day, every 2-3 hours. Sleep for 9 hours a day. Sedentary most of the day except for when I go to the gym.

Meal 1:
1 whole egg, 3 egg whites, cheese, spinach, large fruit
Fat - 26.4% (7 grams)
Protein - 28.1% (18 grams)
Carbohydrates - 45.6% (28 grams)
kcal - 250

Meal 2:
Cereal, 1/2 cup soy milk, soy protein isolate
Fat - 10.1% (4 grams)
Protein - 39.9% (36 grams)
Carbohydrates - 50% (45 grams)
kcal - 350

Meal 3
1/2 can tuna, whole wheat bread, cheese, veggies, fruit
Fat - 15.9% (7 grams)
Protein - 31.6% (30 grams)
Carbohydrates - 52.6% (50 grams)
kcal ~ 350

Meal 4
rice, tofu, ground beef (vegetarian), veggies, fruit
Fat - 14.4% (6 grams)
Protein - 21.7% (19 grams)
Carbohydrates - 64% (56 grams)
Alcohol - 0%
Other - 0%
kcal ~350

Meal 5
yogurt, fruit, peanut butter
Fat - 24.7% (9 grams)
Protein - 16.2% (13 grams)
Carbohydrates - 59% (46 grams)
Alcohol - 0%
Other - 0%
kcal - 300

Meal 6
cup of beans
Fat - 2.8% (1 grams)
Protein - 20.9% (17 grams)
Carbohydrates - 76.3% (62 grams)
Alcohol - 0%
Other - 0%
kcal - 300

Summary:
Total - 1900 kcal (non workout days)
Fat - 34 g
Protein - 130 g
Carbohydrates - 287g
----------------------------------

Post workout shake (only on work out days)
Fat - 8.7% (3 grams)
Protein - 33.7% (30 grams)
Carbohydrates - 57.5% (50 grams)
kcal - 350

Total - 2250 kcal (Workout days only)
Summary:
Fat - ~40 g
Protein - 160 g
Carbohydrates - 340g

Gym 5x/week:
Back; Chest; Shoulders; Arms; Legs; (Mon-Fri)
15 minutes cardio

----------------------------------------------------

Goals -
Maintain BF level, gain lean muscle mass

Am I doing everything properly?

Thank you in advance.

[jamyjamjr]

so let me get this straight....

are you a vegitarian?? will you eat chicken turkey and beef??

[Vitruvian-Man]

so let me get this straight....

are you a vegitarian?? will you eat chicken turkey and beef??

Those are tofu alternatives to meat.

They look, and "taste" like chicken / turkey / beef.. but they're just tofu with spice & prepared to look that way.

[sleepybum]

Those are tofu alternatives to meat.

They look, and "taste" like chicken / turkey / beef.. but they're just tofu with spice & prepared to look that way.

That's correct. However, I would not label myself as a vegetarian -- just a very picky eater; as seafood are a part of my diet.

[Twist]

my advice to you: get over it and eat some meat. seriously though dude.

[CJG560]

I eat a fair amount of tilapia, tuna and other whitefish as part of my diet and seems to work well for me. Granted I also eat beef, turkey etc.

I always thought the tough thing about a vegetarian diet was they generally got to little protein/fat and to many carbs. I am a relative noob here so take all I say with a grain of salt, but this looks like it may be an issue with you.

There are a lot of knowledgeable people that will help, good luck.

[jamyjamjr]

it's hard to bb without eating chicken, turkey, and beef..

i know guys who do it, but im not versed on the matter.. in the end you need to get to your tdee and macros, so it doesn't really matter..

either eat enough protien/fats/carbs or dont grow.. it's simple...
at 2200 calories, you'll be doing the latter..

[sleepybum]

it's hard to bb without eating chicken, turkey, and beef..

i know guys who do it, but im not versed on the matter.. in the end you need to get to your tdee and macros, so it doesn't really matter..

either eat enough protien/fats/carbs or dont grow.. it's simple...
at 2200 calories, you'll be doing the latter..

What is enough protein/fats/carbs for a guy my age, size, and activity level?

[sleepybum]

my advice to you: get over it and eat some meat. seriously though dude.

Is your advice based on the fact that chicken/turkey/beef contain essentials that seafood, tofu, and legumes lack? If so, please let me know what they are.

[Twist]

beef is slow digesting, eat tilapia at night and in like 4 hours you are catabolic. you need variety.

[jamyjamjr]

Is your advice based on the fact that chicken/turkey/beef contain essentials that seafood, tofu, and legumes lack? If so, please let me know what they are.

the amount of protien per ounce is lower in seafood then the others..

if your willing to eat 3lbs of fish a day i dont see a problem (other then mercury at least)

[Twist]

also milos said something about developing allergies to certain protein if consumed without variety.

[jamyjamjr]

^^ yea that's possible...
not probable..

i have more of an issue with keeping my sanity if i eat the same thing over and over again

[sleepybum]

From the replies thus far, I see that there are 2 reasons to discourage a diet that does not contain any red meats, chicken, and turkey.

1.

the amount of protien per ounce is lower in seafood then the others..

and,

2.

beef is slow digesting ... you need variety.

jamyjamjr: It is true that the amount of protein per ounce is lower in seafood (~25-30 g/100 g) than lean beef, veal, lamb, pork, turkey and chicken (~30-36) g/100 g). So that is up to 6 grams fewer/100 g serving.
I also know that parmesan cheeses provide the most protein serving (up to ~ 42 - 36 g/ 100 g); up to 6 g more than any lean meats. Additionally, mature beans (soybeans for example) provide around 37 g/ 100 g, and Lupin beans which provide 36.2 g/ 100 g, which is still more than any lean meats. If protein density is the issue with a diet that does not consist of lean meats, I would like to think that mature beans and high quality cheeses can compensate for that. Would I be correct in this assumption?

Twist: It's true that beef is slow digesting, but so is casein protein. The total release of amino acids in the bloodstream via casein can last as long as 7 hours after ingestion.

As for the nutritive value of seafood proteins... I have read in journals that:

"The nutritive value of marine fish proteins is equal to or better than that of casein and red meat proteins because of their favourable essential amino acid pattern... protein quality of most fish may exceed that of meat or are equal to that of an ideal protein such as lactalbumin"

from,
Marine Products for Healthcare: Functional and Bioactive Nutraceutical (Venugopal, Vazhiyil)

If what I know is true, and I can work around the fact that a) lean meats have a higher protein density than seafood and b) other protein sources have a still slower digestibility than lean meats; then, is it necessary still to incorporate lean meats into my diet?

Thanks so much for your feedback.
.

[Twist]

From the replies thus far, I see that there are 2 reasons to discourage a diet that does not contain any red meats, chicken, and turkey.

1.

and,

2.

jamyjamjr: It is true that the amount of protein per ounce is lower in seafood (~25-30 g/100 g) than lean beef, veal, lamb, pork, turkey and chicken (~30-36) g/100 g). So that is up to 6 grams fewer/100 g serving.
I also know that parmesan cheeses provide the most protein serving (up to ~ 42 - 36 g/ 100 g); up to 6 g more than any lean meats. Additionally, mature beans (soybeans for example) provide around 37 g/ 100 g, and Lupin beans which provide 36.2 g/ 100 g, which is still more than any lean meats. If protein density is the issue with a diet that does not consist of lean meats, I would like to think that mature beans and high quality cheeses can compensate for that. Would I be correct in this assumption?

Twist: It's true that beef is slow digesting, but so is casein protein. The total release of amino acids in the bloodstream via casein can last as long as 7 hours after ingestion.

As for the nutritive value of seafood proteins... I have read in journals that:

"The nutritive value of marine fish proteins is equal to or better than that of casein and red meat proteins because of their favourable essential amino acid pattern... protein quality of most fish may exceed that of meat or are equal to that of an ideal protein such as lactalbumin"

from,
Marine Products for Healthcare: Functional and Bioactive Nutraceutical (Venugopal, Vazhiyil)

If what I know is true, and I can work around the fact that a) lean meats have a higher protein density than seafood and b) other protein sources have a still slower digestibility than lean meats; then, is it necessary still to incorporate lean meats into my diet?

Thanks so much for your feedback.
.

I think that fish is excellent, don't get me wrong... although beef is higher in protein by weight, you get less than 70% of that through absorption, whereas fish is about 23%protein by weight but your body gets 80% of that. eggs are a perfect 100... so maybe you should try eggs... egg powder maybe idk. but you need variety. and soybean flour is 42% by weight but only 61% is absorbed. You need variety.

But the whole casein thing IMO is a load of shit. try a protein shake only diet and see how you respond. eat all food like carbs etc but get protein only through shakes - whey casein etc. you will lose muscle like crazy, strength will be in the toilet. MY best friend tried this experiment and kept a good log. I was there and saw his body go to shit, and he also cheated and ate chicken for one meal a day - to try to get some diversity. If you could drink to get big all the newbs would be huge. go ask reed and all the other big ass guys what their diet is and I bet they would not say that 40% of their nutrients are from shakes.

[sleepybum]

Thanks Twist, for the warning and for the info. Your replies are very informative. I will carefully consider what you've posted.

[Twist]

no problem.

[ninjazx14]

wow. thats all i have to say about this thread.

sleepybum did you come here for advice or just try to argue that your right?

[jamyjamjr]

wow. thats all i have to say about this thread.

sleepybum did you come here for advice or just try to argue that your right?

i think its a little bit of both..

vegetarians get critisized alot so they tend to be a bit more defensive...

remember we look as weird to them as they do to us lol...

[musclehead1]

I think that fish is excellent, don't get me wrong... although beef is higher in protein by weight, you get less than 70% of that through absorption, whereas fish is about 23%protein by weight but your body gets 80% of that. eggs are a perfect 100... so maybe you should try eggs... egg powder maybe idk. but you need variety. and soybean flour is 42% by weight but only 61% is absorbed. You need variety.

But the whole casein thing IMO is a load of shit. try a protein shake only diet and see how you respond. eat all food like carbs etc but get protein only through shakes - whey casein etc. you will lose muscle like crazy, strength will be in the toilet. MY best friend tried this experiment and kept a good log. I was there and saw his body go to shit, and he also cheated and ate chicken for one meal a day - to try to get some diversity. If you could drink to get big all the newbs would be huge. go ask reed and all the other big ass guys what their diet is and I bet they would not say that 40% of their nutrients are from shakes.

very interesting, where did you get the absorbtion figures from. What is the absorbtion is rice protein and hemp protein?

[musclehead1]

OP:

I have a friend that is a veggie eater. He pays very careful attention to his macros. He does eat all the fake chicken/beef products. He also does pack a little more fat nowadays but nothing sloppy, he doesn't do cardio either so that could be the culprit. Anyhow he benches about 275-295, Squats 405, and deadlifts 450ish. hes 5'6" and weighs about 190-195. No cycles. I think you can get big, just not huge. Im sure there are vegan bodybuilding forums out there.

[POPS]

just my .02 here...

if your macros are dialed in to where they should be who cares if it is all tofu or whatever. But like jamy said, I need some type of variety. Also, I will throw in fish maybe once every 10 days. If I had to eat fish as protein for every meal to get my numbers Id probably swim away, lol!