Blood work results

[Black]

Received my recent blood work back. Everything outside of hormones was perfect (cholesterol, PSA, etc.). Current TRT is 300mg of Test Cyp a week.

Total Testosterone - 1400 (Doc said 1400 was the highest I should be at. He said anything higher wouldn't be safe.)
Free Test - Pending (waiting for doc to send my results. These are coming in separate for some reason).

Estradiol - 41 Range - 0-54

He originally wanted me to take .5 mg of Arimidex 3x a week. I originally started this, however when I was taking Arimidex I felt worse. I felt moody, weak, soft, etc. I felt better without an AI, so I just ran the 300mg Test Cyp.

So this estrogen is without an AI. He wants my estrogen in the 16-24 range. Just looking for opinions. I don't know what it is or if it takes a while to feel better, but taking Arimidex has made everything TRT does, the opposite. Or that's atleast what it feels like.

Thanks.

[ZonaDave]

what day did you draw blood in relation to your shot?

are you on one shot per week or two?

sometimes people feel better on higher E2 levels. it also depends on your SHBG level.

it's also possible that the reason you felt worse on adex is because .5mg 3x/week is a strong dose and this may have driven your E2 too low. when E2 is too high or too low it basically feels the same as before you started TRT.

do you have any other symptoms of high E2 (i.e. bloating, sore nipples, fatique)? if not, you're probably ok as is...just my 2 cents.

[zaggahamma]

agree with dave...real unusual to hear that you look softer when adding the AI...

also agree about the .5mg eod being a little high...its at least a little higher than the average or most common arimidex dose i hear on this board of .25 eod

300mg of test is also definately a very high dose to be running for trt...how long is that supposed to be for? and how long so far? when was blood drawn in reference to last shot?

but in reference to your question of you not running the AI...its always been noted that all/most trt patients/doses are individual and AI is advised only AS NEEDED or IF NECESSARY....and you mention that you feel better without so if its all because of the number not being in a certain zone, imo, not to worry....as the numbers are only that....treat yourself not the numbers
just my .02 as well

[flatscat]

Good advise from Dave and JP. I really don't think 41 is that high if your total t is 1400. But, I would try the lower .25 dose for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. I always thought adex made me feel worse too in the early days, but now I know I feel worse without it. Sure keeps the bloat away. You just need to find the right dose and all should be well.

[Black]

what day did you draw blood in relation to your shot?

are you on one shot per week or two?

sometimes people feel better on higher E2 levels. it also depends on your SHBG level.

it's also possible that the reason you felt worse on adex is because .5mg 3x/week is a strong dose and this may have driven your E2 too low. when E2 is too high or too low it basically feels the same as before you started TRT.

do you have any other symptoms of high E2 (i.e. bloating, sore nipples, fatique)? if not, you're probably ok as is...just my 2 cents.

Actually, I just looked back at the date it was drawn and it was the same day (after) one of my injections. Could be a reason for the higher E2?

I am taking bi-weekly split injections.

I agree with .5mg 3x a week is high. That was my first concern. As far as symptoms, all I've really had is some acne on my shoulders and upper back, but not horrible. No nipple issues. I don't feel bloated, buy maybe I am. Lethargy, moody, fatigued and unmotivated are the most obvious issues. Not horribly extreme, but they are there.

Thanks for all the responses. Very helpful. I've been taking 0.25mg 2x a week now (same day as injections) for a week. Still feel similar to the other times I've taken adex, but I am going to give it another week or two and see what happens. In the little bit of time I've been on adex, the acne has dissipated. If symptoms stay, then I'll just cut it out. Thanks again.

[ZonaDave]

"lethargy, moody, fatigued and unmotivated" are pretty good symptoms of something being off. these are the same symptoms of low T which is pretty much what happens when E2 goes high.

.25mg 2x/week is also a good starting point. you have to play around with it a little to see what your body likes.

[maxtrin]

but in reference to your question of you not running the AI...its always been noted that all/most trt patients/doses are individual and AI is advised only AS NEEDED or IF NECESSARY....and you mention that you feel better without so if its all because of the number not being in a certain zone, imo, not to worry....as the numbers are only that....treat yourself not the numbers
just my .02 as well

I cant agree more...

[zaggahamma]

keep us posted dante and answer the unanswered questions from my post...i believe i asked about how long you've been running this protocol and how long are you supposed to stay on 300mg

[Black]

300mg of test is also definately a very high dose to be running for trt...how long is that supposed to be for? and how long so far? when was blood drawn in reference to last shot?

From what I've read before starting therapy, was that 300mg a week was on the high end. Therefore, I started at 200mg a week and worked up every 4 weeks. I didn't start feeling things until I was at 300mg a week. However, now that I look back, I'm thinking the test hadn't kicked in yet. I started therapy in April of 2009. He hasn't set a time frame on how long to keep me at 300 a week.

I've been thinking of dropping the dose a little at a time to see what my optimal dose is. Anyone have a good time frame and method of doing so? I take bi-weekly injections and each dash on my syringe is 20mg.

[flatscat]

From what I've read before starting therapy, was that 300mg a week was on the high end. Therefore, I started at 200mg a week and worked up every 4 weeks. I didn't start feeling things until I was at 300mg a week. However, now that I look back, I'm thinking the test hadn't kicked in yet. I started therapy in April of 2009. He hasn't set a time frame on how long to keep me at 300 a week.

I've been thinking of dropping the dose a little at a time to see what my optimal dose is. Anyone have a good time frame and method of doing so? I take bi-weekly injections and each dash on my syringe is 20mg.

Dante,

I have gone through a long break from trt in the past. Felt like total sh.t when I was off. The night after I started back up I had night time erections - first since I stopped taking the T (about 3 months) - and I could tell a difference the next morning and day about my mood and how I felt. I don't think it takes months to feel the t - I think it takes hours. Now it maight take months to see some bf reduction, or months of a steady dose for your body to regulate everything else. IMO you are taking too much t and this is causing your problems. You can back off slowly or you can jump down to 100-200, I don't think it is going to matter. You should not "crash" as long as you have at least the natural amount of t in your system which should be about 7-10mg's/day. With a 30% loss - that's where they come up with 100mg's/week an approximate replacement value. Granted, there are exceptions, but you might find that less than 300mg's is better - unless you have other goals.

Good Luck,
Flats

[zaggahamma]

Dante,

I have gone through a long break from trt in the past. Felt like total sh.t when I was off. The night after I started back up I had night time erections - first since I stopped taking the T (about 3 months) - and I could tell a difference the next morning and day about my mood and how I felt. I don't think it takes months to feel the t - I think it takes hours. Now it maight take months to see some bf reduction, or months of a steady dose for your body to regulate everything else. IMO you are taking too much t and this is causing your problems. You can back off slowly or you can jump down to 100-200, I don't think it is going to matter. You should not "crash" as long as you have at least the natural amount of t in your system which should be about 7-10mg's/day. With a 30% loss - that's where they come up with 100mg's/week an approximate replacement value. Granted, there are exceptions, but you might find that less than 300mg's is better - unless you have other goals.

Good Luck,
Flats

good advice and given with good self hand experience....

i was just going to answer you question about your 300mg dose anyway...yes...300mg nowhere near a typical long term dose...i have been on this site for 3 or 4 years and never seen anyone on trt steady 300mg a week....we might bump it up once or twice a year to 300, 400, 500 but usually for cycle lengths and then back to our individual trt doses...

keep us posted

[Black]

Dante,

I have gone through a long break from trt in the past. Felt like total sh.t when I was off. The night after I started back up I had night time erections - first since I stopped taking the T (about 3 months) - and I could tell a difference the next morning and day about my mood and how I felt. I don't think it takes months to feel the t - I think it takes hours. Now it maight take months to see some bf reduction, or months of a steady dose for your body to regulate everything else. IMO you are taking too much t and this is causing your problems. You can back off slowly or you can jump down to 100-200, I don't think it is going to matter. You should not "crash" as long as you have at least the natural amount of t in your system which should be about 7-10mg's/day. With a 30% loss - that's where they come up with 100mg's/week an approximate replacement value. Granted, there are exceptions, but you might find that less than 300mg's is better - unless you have other goals.

Good Luck,
Flats

Awesome post. Thanks for the info. I just started to decrease my dose this week. I'm taking bi-weekly injections and I decreased my first shot by 20mgs. I'm going to slowly taper down, just to see if I notice a huge difference in one dose than another. A little bit better way of optimizing this dose for me.

A curious question. Would my estrogen have tested on the higher end because I had a test injection just hours prior to the blood being drawn?

In reference to what my doctor told me about 1400 total test levels being the highest it can be without causing adverse effects long term, is there any truth to that? Thanks.

[Black]

good advice and given with good self hand experience....

i was just going to answer you question about your 300mg dose anyway...yes...300mg nowhere near a typical long term dose...i have been on this site for 3 or 4 years and never seen anyone on trt steady 300mg a week....we might bump it up once or twice a year to 300, 400, 500 but usually for cycle lengths and then back to our individual trt doses...

keep us posted

I agree. I've always come across the same on here.

Since I've started therapy, I've sometimes questioned whether I need to be on TRT or not. I mean, I went through about 2 years of feeling really shitty and having other symptoms before that. I definitely feel MUCH better since I've started. Honestly like a new person. I think I question things because you're told one thing by a professional and then you read otherwise. It just seems like a pretty damn important, life-long therapy to mess around with and not get right.

[zaggahamma]

I agree. I've always come across the same on here.

Since I've started therapy, I've sometimes questioned whether I need to be on TRT or not. I mean, I went through about 2 years of feeling really shitty and having other symptoms before that. I definitely feel MUCH better since I've started. Honestly like a new person. I think I question things because you're told one thing by a professional and then you read otherwise. It just seems like a pretty damn important, life-long therapy to mess around with and not get right.

yes...i see how you can be torn when a doctor who studies medicine says one thing and advice from ppl u never met can be different...i listen to both and make my own decision but most doctors arent familiar with trt yet so we on this board have first hand experience some guided by more intelligent doctors that have more knowledge of hormones

your 1400 level question...yes i would rather stay around there as well if it was all about the numbers yes i would say somewhere between 800-1200 would be ideal...that is long term again

just my .02

[AnabolicBoy1981]

You might feel better at half that testosterone dose with no adex. i would really tweak this thing