BCAA Ratio

[FireGuy]

If memory serves me right there is a ratio that's recommended for Branched Chain Aminos. I dont think its 33/33/33 per gram for some reason. Can someone correct or clarify for me? Extra props if the person who answers does so without Google.

[Swifto]

Mines 2:1:1. Leucine, isoleucine and valine.

[Swifto]

Dont know the maths per gram(s), I'm shit at maths!

Per 4 grams you get 2 grams Leucine and 1 gram each of isoleucine and valine...

I dunno...

[FireGuy]

So a 50-25-25 ratio. Thanks Swifto

[Swifto]

So a 50-25-25 ratio. Thanks Swifto

Thats the one, yes.

2:1:1.

[redz]

I also have the 2:1:1 bcaa caps too.

[BJJ]

Mines 2:1:1. Leucine, isoleucine and valine.

...x2

I also tried 1,5:0,97:1,35 but did not like it.

[THE_DOME]

do you guys take this pre, during and post workout with water?

[THE_DOME]

I bought the pills, that was sure a mistake. Im definatly going powder next go around

[F4iGuy]

I only incorporate the BCAA's when I'm cutting. I add them to my water 45 min. before hitting the weights then finish it before cardio. I do HIT after lifting.

[Swifto]

I bought the pills, that was sure a mistake. Im definatly going powder next go around

If you have pilles, take them inbetween meals to have trickle of aminos in the bloodstream. Some IFBB's do this.

I take powdered BCAA's in the AM and PWO.

[stevey_6t9]

If you have pilles, take them inbetween meals to have trickle of aminos in the bloodstream. Some IFBB's do this.

I take powdered BCAA's in the AM and PWO.

why would you need them between meals?

especially if your eating protein rich meals every 2-3 hrs?

[Swifto]

why would you need them between meals?

especially if your eating protein rich meals every 2-3 hrs?

I guess to keep higher levels of BCAA's in the body. There was a radio interview I listened too last year about it. It spoke about BCAA's inbetween meals and also Leucine's effects on insulin. I'll try and find it...

I'm sure it was done by Layne Norton...

[stevey_6t9]

I guess to keep higher levels of BCAA's in the body. There was a radio interview I listened too last year about it. It spoke about BCAA's inbetween meals and also Leucine's effects on insulin. I'll try and find it...

I'm sure it was done by Layne Norton...

There is absolutely no need imo. BCAA's are flooded in high quality protein sources especially leucine in meat.

My university text book on human growth and nutrition also states that taking specific amino acids can decrease the absorption of other amino acids.

I do believe BCAA's are completely useless if your consuming high amounts of good quality sources of protein.

I do however believe in taking BCAA's during workouts, which dont require absorption and are directly taken by the muscle tissue. Milos sarcev and Charles poliquin are all huge fans of this as well.

[Swifto]

Yeah, I see what your saying.

I take my BCAA's in the AM (apon rising) and PWO. But have read of thers taking them inbetween meals. Never tried it.

[C_Bino]

Well, I wont quote any specific reply here but just give my 2 cents on the issue and also my personal experience, as well as past and present use of BCAA's.

First and foremost. 2:1:1 is standard in most supplements you purchase. I have always found this works well and never seen a reason to change it.

Definitely you would be wise to use them pre workout with some carbs and during workout (possibly with carbs as well). What this is going to do is reduce central nervous system fatigue and delay onset of lactic acid.

There are two mechanisms by which this works, and why this is beneficial. When your body needs ATP to perform muscular contraction it can break down glycogen via glycolysis or catabolize BCAA's for gluconeogenesis.

When carbohydrate stores are low, conversion of ADP to ATP slows down, creating a buildup of ADP and thus muscle fatigue.

Now, since we want to buffer lactic acid and spare glycogen so we are not tapping into skeletal muscle for energy, we know BCAA's can be used to make ATP. The interesting thing is that BCAA's and tryptophan (another amino acid) convert for the same protein receptor. When our BCAA intake is adequate tryptophan levels are kept in check. Now when you are low on BCAA's or dont consume any than any reserve we have is depleted quickly, thus serum levels are low and tryptophan levels are higher than BCAA's, skewing the balance and allowing tryptophan to bind to the protein receptor carrier, once it passes the blood brain barrier and stimulates in increase in 5-HT (serotonin) that is produced. If enough is converted due to low BCAA levels mental and physical fatigue will follow.

Taking BCAA's are going to also help maintain BG levels, this is going to help with a more stable and controlled level of energy throughout the day when taken between meals. Free form amino's HAVE to be consumed on an empty stomach, so why not consume them between meals? Increase protein synthesis, stabalize BG values and increase anabolism. That is the ENTIRE point of bodybuilding anyhow isnt it...to be as anabolic as possible 24/7. Any edge you can get is something worth considering and from personal experience BCAA's are going to give you the best muscle building potential of any supplement out there. Sure there are others to speak of and we all have our preferences, but the pure mechanism by which BCAA's act in the body make them beneficial for any athlete at any stage of competition (cutting/bulking or in between) and have no ill effects I have ever come across and I consume usuall 50g daily.

Best way to consume imo:

Upon rising
Pre training
Intra training
Post training
In between meals (if you want)

[stevey_6t9]

Understanding nutrition (eleventh edition) - Ellie Whitney/Sharon Rady Rolfes

"An excess of one amino acid can create such a demand for a carrier that it limits the absorption of another amino acid, presenting the possibility of a deficiency. Those amino acids winning the competition enter in excess, presenting the possibility of toxicity. Toxicity of single amino acids in animal studies raises concerns about their use in human beings."

amino acids --> peptide ---> polypeptide --> protein (most proteins are up to several hundred amino acids long)

theres another reason why i call bs on BCAA's

[Swifto]

Understanding nutrition (eleventh edition) - Ellie Whitney/Sharon Rady Rolfes

"An excess of one amino acid can create such a demand for a carrier that it limits the absorption of another amino acid, presenting the possibility of a deficiency. Those amino acids winning the competition enter in excess, presenting the possibility of toxicity. Toxicity of single amino acids in animal studies raises concerns about their use in human beings."

amino acids --> peptide ---> polypeptide --> protein (most proteins are up to several hundred amino acids long)

theres another reason why i call bs on BCAA's

Do you take Whey then, as your quick protein fix when needed? Because I have swtiched from Whey, to BCAA's because of a a few reasons and get on much better with BCAA's.

[Swifto]

Well, I wont quote any specific reply here but just give my 2 cents on the issue and also my personal experience, as well as past and present use of BCAA's.

First and foremost. 2:1:1 is standard in most supplements you purchase. I have always found this works well and never seen a reason to change it.

Definitely you would be wise to use them pre workout with some carbs and during workout (possibly with carbs as well). What this is going to do is reduce central nervous system fatigue and delay onset of lactic acid.

There are two mechanisms by which this works, and why this is beneficial. When your body needs ATP to perform muscular contraction it can break down glycogen via glycolysis or catabolize BCAA's for gluconeogenesis.

When carbohydrate stores are low, conversion of ADP to ATP slows down, creating a buildup of ADP and thus muscle fatigue.

Now, since we want to buffer lactic acid and spare glycogen so we are not tapping into skeletal muscle for energy, we know BCAA's can be used to make ATP. The interesting thing is that BCAA's and tryptophan (another amino acid) convert for the same protein receptor. When our BCAA intake is adequate tryptophan levels are kept in check. Now when you are low on BCAA's or dont consume any than any reserve we have is depleted quickly, thus serum levels are low and tryptophan levels are higher than BCAA's, skewing the balance and allowing tryptophan to bind to the protein receptor carrier, once it passes the blood brain barrier and stimulates in increase in 5-HT (serotonin) that is produced. If enough is converted due to low BCAA levels mental and physical fatigue will follow.

Taking BCAA's are going to also help maintain BG levels, this is going to help with a more stable and controlled level of energy throughout the day when taken between meals. Free form amino's HAVE to be consumed on an empty stomach, so why not consume them between meals? Increase protein synthesis, stabalize BG values and increase anabolism. That is the ENTIRE point of bodybuilding anyhow isnt it...to be as anabolic as possible 24/7. Any edge you can get is something worth considering and from personal experience BCAA's are going to give you the best muscle building potential of any supplement out there. Sure there are others to speak of and we all have our preferences, but the pure mechanism by which BCAA's act in the body make them beneficial for any athlete at any stage of competition (cutting/bulking or in between) and have no ill effects I have ever come across and I consume usuall 50g daily.

Best way to consume imo:

Upon rising
Pre training
Intra training
Post training
In between meals (if you want)

Thanks Bino. Excellent.

[C_Bino]

Understanding nutrition (eleventh edition) - Ellie Whitney/Sharon Rady Rolfes

"An excess of one amino acid can create such a demand for a carrier that it limits the absorption of another amino acid, presenting the possibility of a deficiency. Those amino acids winning the competition enter in excess, presenting the possibility of toxicity. Toxicity of single amino acids in animal studies raises concerns about their use in human beings."

amino acids --> peptide ---> polypeptide --> protein (most proteins are up to several hundred amino acids long)

theres another reason why i call bs on BCAA's

Not really sure what "calling BS" on a group of amino acids even means...but ok.

Free form amino's need to be taken on an empty stomach to be utitlized for their specific innate properties and functions. So the fact that you eat protien every 2-3 hours doesnt really have anything to do with it.

We know for a fact lysine is good for cold sores, correct? So by your reasoning you could say...no need for lysine if you have a cold sore, just have a protein shake because it contains lysine. Really its terribly wrong and again, your reasoning is flawed.

I dont disagree that there is competition of protein receptor carriers but its a far stretch to say consuming BCAA's will lead to toxicity because of an animal study that doesnt even list the amounts given, the state of the animal, the rest of the diet etc etc etc.

[stevey_6t9]

Not really sure what "calling BS" on a group of amino acids even means...but ok.

Free form amino's need to be taken on an empty stomach to be utitlized for their specific innate properties and functions. So the fact that you eat protien every 2-3 hours doesnt really have anything to do with it.

We know for a fact lysine is good for cold sores, correct? So by your reasoning you could say...no need for lysine if you have a cold sore, just have a protein shake because it contains lysine. Really its terribly wrong and again, your reasoning is flawed.

I dont disagree that there is competition of protein receptor carriers but its a far stretch to say consuming BCAA's will lead to toxicity because of an animal study that doesnt even list the amounts given, the state of the animal, the rest of the diet etc etc etc.

Well we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs so ill leave it at that.

But don't expect to gain any noticeable competitive advantage by taking BCAA's. My 2 cents.

[Swifto]

Well we are all entitled to our opinions and beliefs so ill leave it at that.

But don't expect to gain any noticeable competitive advantage by taking BCAA's. My 2 cents.

Why not?

How can you come to that conslusion when protein (amino's) is the key to anabolism and creation of LBM?

[BJJ]

Why not?

How can you come to that conslusion when protein (amino's) is the key to anabolism and creation of LBM?

...x2

[Aizen Sosuke]

One of the most intresting threads on this board in a while. I take my BCAA during workout along with creatine and dextrose. It's called scivation Xtend and it brings 3.5g of leucine, 1.7g of isoleucine, 1.7g of valine, 2.5g of glutamine and 1g of citruline. I just add 5g of creatine and 15g of dextrose and down it during my lifting right up until cardio starts. After cardio then PWO shake of whey, dextrose and glutamine.

[LiftedDuramax2007]

What do you all think about trueproteins Leucine 4:1:1? I have 3lbs of it now but dont take it as often as I think I should

[THE_DOME]

I think if there is any chance of BCAA's helping me towarde my goal its worth it, no matter how small the increase.

[stevey_6t9]

Why not?

How can you come to that conslusion when protein (amino's) is the key to anabolism and creation of LBM?

That statement is assumed if the person is consuming a high calorie rich protein diet from which adequate protein requirements are met.

proteins are made up of sometimes thousands of amino acids.

why take 3 amino acids (BCAA's) when eating a single egg can provide you with all the EAA and over 1gram of pure leucine and half a gram of isoleucine.

its lunacy.

[stevey_6t9]

sorry its just crazy we bodybuilders are all chowing down 300g + of protein (50% daily kcals) and still find time to justify taking BCAA's.

[C_Bino]

That statement is assumed if the person is consuming a high calorie rich protein diet from which adequate protein requirements are met.

proteins are made up of sometimes thousands of amino acids.

why take 3 amino acids (BCAA's) when eating a single egg can provide you with all the EAA and over 1gram of pure leucine and half a gram of isoleucine.

its lunacy.

Because quite simply you are not taking the benefits from complete protein sources.

Why take carnitine (lysine and methionine) for weight loss if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take arginine for heart health if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take glutamine for intestinal repair and ulcer relief if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take lysine for cold sores if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take tryptophan to help you sleep if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Should I go on?

[IM708]

sorry its just crazy we bodybuilders are all chowing down 300g + of protein (50% daily kcals) and still find time to justify taking BCAA's.

The metabolism of 'complete' proteins are vastly different then taking individual aminos/bcaas.

[stevey_6t9]

Because quite simply you are not taking the benefits from complete protein sources.

Why take carnitine (lysine and methionine) for weight loss if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take arginine for heart health if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take glutamine for intestinal repair and ulcer relief if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take lysine for cold sores if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Why take tryptophan to help you sleep if you are eating a protein rich diet?

Should I go on?

ok, so why do we eat protein then?

we might as well buy bottles of each of the 20 amino acids and take them individually.

[C_Bino]

ok, so why do we eat protein then?

we might as well buy bottles of each of the 20 amino acids and take them individually.

Oh god...really? LMAOOOOO

Do you actually not know?

Have you read ANY of my posts. Of course you need protein, but the digestion of protein versus free form amino acids is completely different. They are metabolised and utilized differently in the body. You said BCAA's were useless if you eat a lot of protein. I explained with MANY examples how free form amino's work for SPECIFIC conditions or ailments or to perform specific functions within the body...from that your ignorantly concluded now that I would suggest we dont need to eat protein?

This is getting embarrassing really.

[C_Bino]

ok, so why do we eat protein then?

we might as well buy bottles of each of the 20 amino acids and take them individually.

BTW there are 22 naturally occurring amino acids

[stevey_6t9]

of course the digestion of free form amino acids vs protein is different, that is where they play a key role ie during training.

i have no idea where your going on this one so ill let you take your aminos to make you big and strong and get rid of your cold sores.

and also i meant there are 20 amino acids found in the human body and btw there are over 300 found naturally according to my uni references.

but you are good at using google

[C_Bino]

of course the digestion of free form amino acids vs protein is different, that is where they play a key role ie during training.

i have no idea where your going on this one so ill let you take your aminos to make you big and strong and get rid of your cold sores.

and also i meant there are 20 amino acids found in the human body and btw there are over 300 found naturally according to my uni references.

but you are good at using google

LOL Did you seriously want to turn this into a personal attack?

I backed up everything with solid evidence, now you DARE to say I use google, and then make a very very juvenile and sad attempt to mock me by implying I have cold sores when all I merely stated was a long-known use of a free form amino acid.

It's ok we can let the other users decide who has better advice and more knowledge...after all everybody, he did say to keep taking my amino's to stay big and strong. Well look at my avi and look at him.



Here is also a copy of his AMAZING diet.

Diet:
meal 1) 2 scoops whey protein isolate, cup of oats, multi, fish oil, vit C and E and Zinc
meal 2) 250g chicken and cup of rice
meal 3 150g chicken half cup of rice and salad
meal 4) 250 lean red meat one cup of vegetables
meal 5) 200g tuna and cup of pasta
meal 6) (post w/o) 3 scoops protein, 80g glucose, creatine, BCAA's, L-Glutamine, Banana and apple
meal 7) 2 scoops casein protein with 200mL skim milk

Oh my goodness, look at that he even has BCAA's in there. Watch out he's getting huge!

[BJJ]

BCAA, if taken correctly, are needed indeed.
I am the living example.

[FireGuy]

of course the digestion of free form amino acids vs protein is different, that is where they play a key role ie during training.

i have no idea where your going on this one so ill let you take your aminos to make you big and strong and get rid of your cold sores.

and also i meant there are 20 amino acids found in the human body and btw there are over 300 found naturally according to my uni references.

but you are good at using google

If you spend any time on the diet forum you will find Bino is probably the most knowledgable person around when it comes to performance to nutrition. Nark would be the only guy who could even come close to his level of expertise. I can assure you he doesnt need Google to come up with what he writes. He probably has more formal education than the people that write your text books. Speaking of, I find it interesting you are accusing someone of using Google to get their info while you keep making quotes about what your university text book says, what's the difference. You are reading from paper and they would be reading from a screen?

After looking at your diet you do realize L Glutamine is also an amino acid which I see you take on it's own? For an 18 year old kid you have a decent grasp of nutrition but you are getting in way over your head here.

[Mr.Rose]

BTW there are 22 naturally occurring amino acids

you know they found a deep space meteor that had 92 or so amino acids never seen on earth on it. Interesting ay??

What if we start taking them in abundance?
haha

[Mr.Rose]

sorry just trying to break the tension. .

Keep it civil please.

[C_Bino]

you know they found a deep space meteor that had 92 or so amino acids never seen on earth on it. Interesting ay??

What if we start taking them in abundance?
haha

How much they cost? I'll take them for sure.