hcg article, lower test after use

[americanoak]

so i found this link, it talks about a kid who stopped his natty test at age 17 cause he was cycling without any real knowlage. Anyway, it talks about HCG and some other supps he took to get his natty test back, but in the end he took HCG for 3 months. While he was on the HCG his test was high, but as soon as he came off it dropped to even lower than what it was before the HCG.

What are your thoughts about this? Did it drop lower because you arent rly supposed to use HCg longer than around 6 weeks? is this even true?

I dont have any rly specific q's to be answered, and any comments on the article are good to go. I am just interested to see what people have to say about this artcle for the most part.

http://www.ergo-log.com/hcgtestosterone.html

[Swifto]

so i found this link, it talks about a kid who stopped his natty test at age 17 cause he was cycling without any real knowlage. Anyway, it talks about HCG and some other supps he took to get his natty test back, but in the end he took HCG for 3 months. While he was on the HCG his test was high, but as soon as he came off it dropped to even lower than what it was before the HCG.

What are your thoughts about this? Did it drop lower because you arent rly supposed to use HCg longer than around 6 weeks? is this even true?

I dont have any rly specific q's to be answered, and any comments on the article are good to go. I am just interested to see what people have to say about this artcle for the most part.

http://www.ergo-log.com/hcgtestosterone.html

Its seems his problem(s) lie with his hypothalamus and pituiatry (secondary hypogonadism), not his testis (primary hypogonadism). With a little Tamox, Clomid or both, he may even recover.

The hypothalamus and pituitary recover fairly quickly post cycle, the testis do not.

Because he used HCG on cycle at points, he combatted testicular dysfunction (testicular atrophy from disuse).

I have never seen a study confirming it, but I'd suspect using HCG would inhibit endo. LH. Thats what happens with most other hormones in the body.

[americanoak]

you think he could recover from being completly shut down at age 17 for over a year by taking some tamox and clomid?

[americanoak]

^^^^

[FranciscoG]

you think he could recover from being completly shut down at age 17 for over a year by taking some tamox and clomid?

Apparently not.

His problem is he is stupid. Unfortunatly, this is an ever occuring condition that can lead to death.

[TITANIUM]

you think he could recover from being completly shut down at age 17 for over a year by taking some tamox and clomid?

Yes, it is possible.

Best

T

[americanoak]

If the kid had been on steroids from 17 dont you thnk he would have know what clomid and nolv are tho? I cant remember if it said he used it, but if those two products could do that, what type of recovery do you mean? That he will make his own test, but it will be very low and will prolly have to do hrt for the rest of his life? or like a full recovery?

Im not doubting what you know, I just never heard that those two things were so powerful

[americanoak]

gonna bump this one more time

[TITANIUM]

If the kid had been on steroids from 17 dont you thnk he would have know what clomid and nolv are tho? I cant remember if it said he used it, but if those two products could do that, what type of recovery do you mean? That he will make his own test, but it will be very low and will prolly have to do hrt for the rest of his life? or like a full recovery?

Im not doubting what you know, I just never heard that those two things were so powerful

OK, I'm not Swifto by any means, but I get by........

Yes, he may be able to get his Natty test up and going again.

Clomid, tamo, tore, ect... can get this to happen.

HCG would be used in conjunction in this process.

He may have damaged his HPTA, and yes, may have to go on TRT for life.

I think an endocrinologist is in order for this issue.

A extended PCT needs to be ran before you will actually know this.

Blood work is needed also, a full lipid panel, w/an established baseline.

Hope this helps clarify this post.

We have some really knowledgeable vets here, like Swifto that can really break it down for you.

If he does not see this thread and chime in, PM him.

He's a good guy.

Best

T

[Swifto]

Good job T.

I think it may be possible, but unlikely.

Here's a study on recovery after a long time of shutdown (2 years).

This is one of the most interesting papers I have seen on long term use and recovery.




STREET C, SCALLY MC. Pharmaceutical Intervention of Anabolic Steroid Induced
Hypogonadism - Our Success at Restoration of the HPG Axis. Medicine and Science in Sports
and Exercise 2000;32(5)Suppl.
High-dose anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) administration results in hypogonadotropic
hypogonadism (HH). Physical manifestations can include one or more of the following:
depression, decreased sexual desire, impotence, feelings of apathy, testicular atrophy, and loss of
muscle mass and strength. Due to feedback inhibition, laboratory values drop well below
established physiologic norms: luteinizing hormone (LH) >3.6 IU/L, follicle stimulating
hormone (FSH) >2.25 IU/L, and testosterone (T) >300 ng/dL. A search of the literature reveals
an absence of studies dealing specifically with AAS induced HH, and restoration of normal
endocrine function. We report on two interesting cases of AAS using bodybuilders who were
brought out of the hypogonadal state. Blood samples were taken in the morning for both subjects
and analyzed using chemiluminescence (Quest Diagnostics, Irvine, TX). Post-therapy samples
were taken 15 days after the last hCG injection.

Case 1: 6'0" 206 lbs. 33 yr old Caucasian male
with a 10+ year history of steroid self-administration for bodybuilding and powerlifting. By his
own admission he was a "heavy" user, taking from 500 mg/wk to 2+ grams/wk. Pre-treatment
values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 191 ng/dL. One course of therapy (32 days) was given: 2,500 IU of
hCG every 4 days (8 injections total), 50 mg clomiphene bid and 10 mg tamoxifen qd. Despite
massive drug use patient was an exceptionally good responder. Post-treatment values: LH 5.2
IU/L, T 1072 ng/dL.

Case 2: 5'10" 184 lbs 36 yr old Caucasian male with a 2 yr history of
continuous nandrolone use (200-400 mg/wk). Pre-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 45 ng/dL.

Treat 1
(32 days): 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (8 total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and arimidex (1 mg qd).
Post-values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 38 ng/dL.

Treat 2 (60 days): 5,000 IU hCG every 4 days (4 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG every 4 d (4 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen
(10 mg qd). Post-values: LH > 1.4 IU/L, T 63 ng/dL.

Treat 3 (32 days): 5,000 IU hCG qod (6 inj
total) followed by 2,500 IU hCG qod (6 inj total) given simultaneously with menotropins 150 IU
qod (6 inj total), clomiphene (50 mg bid) and tamoxifen (10 mg bid). Post-values: LH 9.8 IU/L,
T 507 ng/dL.

Restoration of the HPG axis, even in severe cases of hypogonadism, is possible
with combined therapies and careful monitoring of the patient. With continued popularity of
these drugs, long-term androgen deficiency is a health concern for former AAS users. Further
research is needed in this area.

[americanoak]

Wow, so in the first case after the treatment the guys test was above normal? Im guessing this was right after the treatment though, do you think it stayed in that range? The high 900's - low 1000's?

Pretty amazing to recover from being shut down for 2 years.


Thanks for all the info Titanium and Swifto

[americanoak]

Good job T.


Case 1: 6'0" 206 lbs. 33 yr old Caucasian male
with a 10+ year history of steroid self-administration for bodybuilding and powerlifting. By his
own admission he was a "heavy" user, taking from 500 mg/wk to 2+ grams/wk. Pre-treatment
values: LH < 1.0 IU/L, T 191 ng/dL. One course of therapy (32 days) was given: 2,500 IU of
hCG every 4 days (8 injections total), 50 mg clomiphene bid and 10 mg tamoxifen qd. Despite
massive drug use patient was an exceptionally good responder. Post-treatment values: LH 5.2
IU/L, T 1072 ng/dL.

does the qd mean every fourth day? If so that doesnt seem like very much at all.
I have no idea what 'bid' is, so i wont guess aha

[Kdub]

Apparently not.

His problem is he is stupid. Unfortunatly, this is an ever occuring condition that can lead to death.

LOL,... Life is tough but it certainly is tougher when you are stupid.

I see an "aggressive" HCG dosage at 2500 IU every 4th day in the treatments but no use of HMG. Perhaps this is an older case???

[Swifto]

does the qd mean every fourth day? If so that doesnt seem like very much at all.
I have no idea what 'bid' is, so i wont guess aha

Bid is 2x/day.

QD is once per day.



QD = ONCE PER DAY
QOD = EVRY OTHER DAY
Q3D = EVERY THIRD DAY

BID = TWO TIMES PER DAY
TID = THREE TIMES PER DAY
QID = FOUR TIMES PER DAY

[sixxer]

Just for future reference, is it

1. Prolonged length of cycle
or
2. Dosage while on cycle
or
3. Compounds used while on cycle

that cause severe and possibly irreversible shutdown?

Thanks.

[americanoak]

Bid is 2x/day.

QD is once per day.



QD = ONCE PER DAY
QOD = EVRY OTHER DAY
Q3D = EVERY THIRD DAY

BID = TWO TIMES PER DAY
TID = THREE TIMES PER DAY
QID = FOUR TIMES PER DAY

Ohh, ok thanks

[americanoak]

Just for future reference, is it

1. Prolonged length of cycle
or
2. Dosage while on cycle
or
3. Compounds used while on cycle

that cause severe and possibly irreversible shutdown?

Thanks.

I think it can be all or just one of them

[Swifto]

I think it can be all or just one of them

Length and choice of compounds should have the most emphasis here.

Dosage matters, but not as much as assumed.

Length is the absolute most important factor IMHO.

[americanoak]

good to know swifto, i always assumed dose was a big part of it