Injection vs Gel - Any studies?

[nunyabizness]

My doc seems willing to discuss injection with me, but believes that the gel provides a more stable delivery system without the lows experienced during injection cycles. I can't seem to find any information, other than anecdotal evidence in bb forums, to the contrary.

Does anyone have an actual study on this? I saw a single study on sub-q but that was it, and it was from a post about 5 years ago or more.

[marcus300]

I wouldn't take much notice of studies to be honest and I would go by what works for you. Ive tried gel and it didn't do much at all and I would say many guys would agree with me, only when I started injecting my mood lifted and I started to feel normal again.

If you haven't been on any therapy yet and your doctor wants to you try gel give it a go see how you feel, if things don't get better try the injection but either way don't rely on studies for your therapy use what works for you to cure your condition.

[durak]

Attached are the graphs for cypionate and androgel.

Obviously the androgel is fairly stable over the 24 hour period.

The cypionate is fairly stable for 3 or so days then drops off. When done bi-weekly the blood level actually stays fairly constant. Hence why we suggest bi-weekly.

I would say that his concern for stabililty is valid. However, what if you sleep in, forget to use it, apply too much or too little? With the shot you just go on with your life.

The issue of transferrence is an important issue as well. I would refuse androgel for the safety of my family. Not to mention I sweat a lot...

I would print these out and show him. Often I find commen sense backed up with an obvious effort to educate oneself works well.

[durak]

bump because it drives me nuts drs do not know this! All they need to do is look at a freakin graph.

[nunyabizness]

Weird. If I look at the graph it appears that the serum level of the injectable never reaches the low point of the gel. However, the gel maintains a consistent, even level.

This is the problem - if I show him the graph he will say, "Look at the spike, then drop, right at day 3 or 4. The gel is smooth and even all the time."

We know that injecting twice weekly maintains a level which makes us feel good. In fact, looking at that graph, probably higher than the gel. However, most doctors have an issue with IM injections weekly, let alone biweekly. Sub-cu might be an alternative, because diabetics do it more than once a day, so it's not a big deal. (Unless you want to be fit and healthy, because there's an issue with that. But I digress)

[durak]

Weird. If I look at the graph it appears that the serum level of the injectable never reaches the low point of the gel. However, the gel maintains a consistent, even level.

The gel graph assumes you are already on it. If it went to one day before, you would see the jump. If it showed one day after and no reapply then you would see the drop.

This is the problem - if I show him the graph he will say, "Look at the spike, then drop, right at day 3 or 4. The gel is smooth and even all the time."

If it is split 100 mg day 0 and 100mg day 3-4 you would remove the drop.

They have an issue because they look at the half-life and dose via that. Errant western medicine. All you can do is try... Hell even print off another of the cyp and have it overlap at the 3-4 day mark if he really need a visual aide.

[nunyabizness]

I get that, but 700 is physiologic, right? Anyhow, best I can do is tell him I want to be on injectable twice weekly because I want to be on the high end of normal range, and have no issues with self injection. (I don't, I used to be a nurse.)

[durak]

I get that, but 700 is physiologic, right? Anyhow, best I can do is tell him I want to be on injectable twice weekly because I want to be on the high end of normal range, and have no issues with self injection. (I don't, I used to be a nurse.)

First, everyone is different. 200mg might put someone at 400 and another at 900. thats why we get retested to fine tune it.

Second, the "normal range" differs but tends to be about 300 - 1000 maybe 1100. With 300 being low and 1100 being high. "normal normal" is about 550 - 850.

Really play up the transference. it is a real issue and like i said i would not subject my wife or child to it.

[Epic Ed]

The problem with the gel, aside from personal preference and cost, is it delivers an inconsistent dose. In ideal, perfect lab conditions you get an even daily dose, but in reality some rubs off on clothing, some is diluted due to perspiration and activity level, some days you measure a little more or less than the day before. There are a variety of factors that go into factoring the daily absorption rate of the same dose, but in real world situations it's rare that you'll get the same amount day in and day out.

The other factor, which no doctor seems to acknowledge, is the fact that exogenously administered test aromatizes at a higher rate than test that's injected. You are less likely to have E2 related sides with the injections.

[baja212]

The problem with the gel, aside from personal preference and cost, is it delivers an inconsistent dose. In ideal, perfect lab conditions you get an even daily dose, but in reality some rubs off on clothing, some is diluted due to perspiration and activity level, some days you measure a little more or less than the day before. There are a variety of factors that go into factoring the daily absorption rate of the same dose, but in real world situations it's rare that you'll get the same amount day in and day out.

The other factor, which no doctor seems to acknowledge, is the fact that exogenously administered test aromatizes at a higher rate than test that's injected. You are less likely to have E2 related sides with the injections.

I disagree, in my case anyway. My E2 level while on the Gel is >20ng as
of (1/29), though it may be a little higher now because the morning wood has returned. But never did it rise above 31ng. However, I feel good right now, but not great. I agree with the majority injections are the way to go. For AAS purpose when I took 200mg of Test per week the estrogen sides came upon very fast & furious.

[durak]

I disagree, in my case anyway. My E2 level while on the Gel is >20ng as
of (1/29), though it may be a little higher now because the morning wood has returned. But never did it rise above 31ng. However, I feel good right now, but not great. I agree with the majority injections are the way to go. For AAS purpose when I took 200mg of Test per week the estrogen sides came upon very fast & furious.

lol.. we are trying to help this guy justify shots to the doc!

[Vettester]

My doc seems willing to discuss injection with me, but believes that the gel provides a more stable delivery system without the lows experienced during injection cycles. I can't seem to find any information, other than anecdotal evidence in bb forums, to the contrary.

Does anyone have an actual study on this? I saw a single study on sub-q but that was it, and it was from a post about 5 years ago or more.

No way does the Gel provide more stability. I take injections and have no lows, unless I stop taking my shot after a week. Some do it twice a week. Whatever the protocol, you can dial it in and it's done. Gel ... How much really gets transferred? Is some of it coming off on the clothes, the kids, wife? And if you're like me (and others here too), you'll bottom out on that crap and basically crash. Happened to me after 6 months of using it. If he's willing to discuss injections, then your solution has unfolded.

[lovbyts]

Go to an endo instead of doc in the box.
Gel makes me/you itch
Worried about it rubbing off on the wife/kids
It's hot where you live and when you perspire it does not absorb.

Dont seem overly enthusiastic about the injection but just you want more stable levels and less chance of cross contamination.

[nunyabizness]

Go to an endo instead of doc in the box.

No male specializing endos here. I've got a urologist, my family doc knows even less. It's a sad state of affairs in the eastern reaches of the Great White North.