Clen / T3 cycle only

[bruin27]

ive been using clen for awhile now on and off... I have never tried T3 but have heard some good stuff about it. Just wondering what a typical cycle would look like for clen and t3. Usually with clen i go 2 weeks on 2 weeks off, didnt know if adding in t3 would affect that. If anyone could help with a standard cycle and if there is any pct needed afterwords i would appreciate that info as well. Thanks in advance!

[MrO_55]

Before you take in to consideration what I have to say please note that I have used neither of these compounds but plan to very soon for contest prep so I have been doing alot of reasearch and this is what i've found...

Running Clem by itself is fine. It is anticatabolic so I don't think you will loose too mich muscle using it on it's own. T3 is a whole new ball game.

It is VERY catabolic. Although it will shred you up like nothing else you should definatly run it with some AAS with it. Probaly a "low" dose of test would be your best option.

As for PCT no PCT is really needed with either. But you should taper the dose down slowly with T3 then end the cycle. Although there are drugs you can use to help restore you natural thyroid levels but I don't know anything about that.

As for doses just google it you can find like 1000 ways to run these drugs together.

Again I an far from an expert on this topic so hopefully some one will chime in with some experience.

Hope this helps

[teddykgb29]

no need for pct, and you can use clen and t3 together, you can use keto to supplement the clen and you don't have to do 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off. Look into using keto.

[bruin27]

i was thinking about staying in the 50mcg-75 range.. i was told the lower you go the less muscle loss

[RED26]

Don't use T3 without any AAS, unless you want to lose your hard-earned muscle.

[bruin27]

it was my understanding that if you stick to lower doses you wont lose much muscle..

[RED26]

it was my understanding that if you stick to lower doses you wont lose much muscle..

Why bother using lower (Not effective) doses and risking your natural thyroid function when you could, either not use it at all (If you're not going to use it properly) or use it as it's supposed to be used (For us bodybuilders) and use it with something like test-prop + winny and get remarkably better results, and, of course... with little or no muscle loss.

Think about it this way... Is like the people who think using 50mg of test would be less, I don't know... "Harsh?" on their endocrine system rather than 500mg of test, when actually, we know that either 1mg or 1g of test WILL shutdown thw HPTA function...
If you're going to mess with your hormones or such powerful drugs, do it correctly, or don't do it at all.

That's my opinion.

[bruin27]

does anyone have any experience without an anabolic? how about natural herbal test boosters or anything otc to take with it.. not in the mood to stick myself everyday so test is outta the question....

[Sector]

does anyone have any experience without an anabolic? how about natural herbal test boosters or anything otc to take with it.. not in the mood to stick myself everyday so test is outta the question....

If test is out of the question then so is T3 my friend. Seriously, do not do it. My brother tried t3 without an anabolic to try n cut fat quickly before summer. He did a low dose of 60 and he looked very small after 2 weeks. Did he lose fat? Yes, but at what cost? His lifts dropped considerably and he visibly looked like he was holding far less muscle mass.

[bruin27]

I hear people using winstrol with it? But doesn't that work the same way as far as not using winstrol alone and only with test? So basically I'd have to use test no matter what?

[bruin27]

http://www.************.com/forum/an...bigandy69.html ... This link makes me think you can do it alone without aas... Kind of contradicting

[bruin27]

Posted by BigAndy69 on elite;
Disclaimer

T3 is not a drug that should be taken lightly. It's a very potent thyroid hormone. Messing with your natural hormone levels is very dangerous and unpredictable. The potential for complications is very high, and abuse can lead to thyroid disease and low thyroid output not only immediately upon discontinuation, but also later in life.

There is no such thing as safe use of T3 outside of a medical setting. There is only "safer" use. Use at your own risk.

Introduction: What is T3 and what are the side effects?

This article is pushing 2000 words, so here's a link for anyone who's interested: http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbo...roid/index.html

What about T4?

Bodybuilders should not use T4. It's a much weaker drug designed for long term use in patients with chronic thyroid disease. 100mcg of T4 corresponds to 25mcg of T3 and offers equivalent thyroid support; however, this does not translate to equal weight loss benefits. It has made itself on sources' lists simply because it is widely available and extremely cheap.

Is T3 catabolic?

It may shock many people to know that T3 is NOT catabolic per se. Corticosteroids are catabolic drugs that attack muscle tissue directly; T3 does not. It is a very potent calorie burner and it does not discriminate between carbohydrates, protein and fat. Unlike DNP, it has no protein sparing properties. T3 is also more likely to burn muscle than fat in lean users (10-12% BF), but this can be said for any extreme drop in caloric intake and uptake such as starvation diets (Caloric intake <10 X BW).

Muscle loss can be avoided with the use of anabolic agents. T3's alleged catabolic properties have become legendary. Excessive amounts of T3 (more than 75mcg), will have a very strong calorie burning effect, and since some bodybuilder use 150 mcg, it's easy to see why such misinformation has been so prevalent. The average bodybuilder will not need several grams of steroids to counter a reasonable dose of T3. There is no need to use more than 75mcg-100mcg. Going beyond this dose will cause more harm than good, as massive doses of steroids need to be used to counter the muscle loss, further stressing the body for minimal, if any additional benefits.

I think I've lost 20 lbs of muscle!

T3 can also give your muscles an extremely flat look and very soft feel. This side effect of extreme glycogen depletion can have a very profound psychological impact in bodybuilders. It often feels and looks like muscle loss when it's simply a lack of muscle "pump" because of restricted blood flow to that area and depletion of glycogen stores in muscles. Generally, carbohydrate loading does not solve this problem. "Pumping up" (or training for that matter) brings more blood into the muscles and is a temporary albeit effective solution. Clenbuterol and certain steroids can offset the lack of muscle pump because these drugs tend to "harden up" users by bringing more blood into to the muscles.


Are steroids absolutely necessary on T3?

This is very dependent on the user. Diet must be flawless, only reasonable doses should be considered (50mcg) and the user must know his body to a tee. Those who don't know what that last statement entails should not even consider T3. This is a veteran drug and should not be used by bodybuilders who are new to the game or do not have a deep understanding of how there bodies react to certain foods and training philosophies.

T3 can be used alone or better yet with Clenbuterol without fear of muscle loss in overly fat people (20-25% BF). This is not recommended, however, since these people will generally return to overeating upon discontinuation of their cycle and may likely end up with more weight than they started with.


How should I eat on T3?

Protein should be kept at 1.5-2g per lb of bodyweight. The majority of protein should come from lean meats. Shakes can be used, but should not be heavily relied on as they are more likely to be turned into glucose and used immediately for energy. Caloric reduction should come from carbs and fat only.


What is T3 used for?

Fat-loss: The main use for T3.

Increase Nutrient Uptake: Not very well known, but this is a great use for T3. Doses between 6.25-12.5mcg do not shutdown endogenous thyroid output. T3 at this dose can be used to add LBM and help in keeping the fat off. When doses are kept at 6.25-12.5mcg, muscles are full and rock hard, and energy is through the roof. At these light doses, it's common for people to go to the bathroom 5-6 times a day because there bodies are making more efficient use of the food they eat.

Can I permanently shutdown my Thyroid?


Simply put, NO, it can't happen. Natural thyroid production will be completely shutdown for a good period of time after using T3, but it will eventually recover. Bruce Kneller posted this study on the Testosterone website:

N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4
Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy.
Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

The pattern of thyrotropin secretion was analyzed in seven euthyroid women, before and after withdrawal of long-term thyroid hormone, by serial measurements of thyroid 131l uptake, serum thyroxine, tri-iodothyronine, and thyrotropin concentrations, and the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone. During exogenous hormone administration, 131l uptake was suppressed, and serum thyrotropin concentrations before and after administration of thyrotropin-releasing hormone were undetectable.
After withdrawal of exogenous hormone, thyrotropin secretory function was transiently impaired, as indicated by undetectable basal thyrotropin concentrations together with absence of response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and subsequently by normal values of basal thyrotropin concentration and normal responses to releasing hormone while serum thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine concentrations were subnormal.
Decreased thyrotropin reserve persisted for two to five weeks. Detectable values of serum thyrotropin (less than 1.2 muU per milliliter) and a normal 131l uptake usually occurred concurrently in two to three weeks. Serum thyroxine concentration returned to normal at least four weeks after hormone withdrawal.

Basically, it is extremely important to eat cleanly and keep up with cardio for at least 4 weeks and up to 6 weeks following a T3 cycle. It's also very important to ramp down properly and not use any drug that have an effect on metabolism and thyroid function, i.e. Clen, Ephedrine, Steroids, DNP, T2…

Calories should be kept in check, even lowered in some cases, and High Intensity Cardio is a must; at least 20mins, 3times a week. L-Tyrosine can be used at 1-3g a day to help thyroid function, but its effectiveness is debatable.

Switching to a higher carb, lower fat and lower protein diet is crucial in helping your thyroid bounce back after a cycle. A three-day carb up would be a good idea following a T3 cycle. This study demonstrates how important carbohydrates are for normal thyroid function. (Note: Some people seem to think of carbs as Lucky Charms and toast when there are far better carb choices that won't make you look like the Michelin Man.)

Dietary-induced alterations in thyroid hormone metabolism during overnutrition.
Danforth E Jr, Horton ES, O'Connell M, Sims EA, Burger AG, Ingbar SH, Braverman L, Vagenakis AG.

Diet-induced alterations in thyroid hormone concentrations have been found in studies of long-term (7 mo) overfeeding in man (the Vermont Study). In these studies of weight gain in normal weight volunteers, increased calories were required to maintain weight after gain over and above that predicted from their increased size. This was associated with increased concentrations of triiodothyronine (T3). No change in the caloric requirement to maintain weight or concentrations of T3 was found after long-term (3 mo) fat overfeeding. In studies of short-term overfeeding (3 wk) the serum concentrations of T3 and its metabolic clearance were increased, resulting in a marked increase in the production rate of T3 irrespective of the composition of the diet overfed (carbohydrate 29.6 +/- 2.1 to 54.0 +/- 3.3, fat 28.2 +/- 3.7 to 49.1 +/- 3.4, and protein 31.2 +/- 2.1 to 53.2 +/- 3.7 microgram/d per 70 kg). Thyroxine production was unaltered by overfeeding (93.7 +/- 6.5 vs. 89.2 +/- 4.9 microgram/d per 70 kg). It is still speculative whether these dietary-induced alterations in thyroid hormone metabolism are responsible for the simultaneously increased expenditure of energy in these subjects and therefore might represent an important physiological adaptation in times of caloric affluence. During the weight-maintenance phases of the long-term overfeeding studies, concentrations of T3 were increased when carbohydrate was isocalorically substituted for fat in the diet. In short-term studies the peripheral concentrations of T3 and reverse T3 found during fasting were mimicked in direction, if not in degree, with equal or hypocaloric diets restricted in carbohydrate were fed. It is apparent from these studies that the caloric content as well as the composition of the diet, specifically, the carbohydrate content, can be important factors in regulating the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones.

A post cycle crash is inevitable; this is the time when your diet really matters.

So how do I cycle this stuff?

T3/Clen/Anavar Cycle

Anavar is the single best steroid to stack with T3. Its anti catabolic properties are unmatched and it will not shut you down. There's nothing like simultaneous sex hormone and thyroid hormone shutdown; I bet it feels great. Primobolan at 200mg a week would be a good substitute since it doesn't shut you down. Dbol at 10-15mg taken in the morning can also be used but Arimidex must be included with the Dbol. T3 increases the amount of beta-3-adregenic receptors (by 500%!) in white adipose tissue, i.e. the fat that covers muscle. Since clen exerts most of its effect on the same receptors; the combination with T3 would yield quite a strong synergistic effect. T3/Clen may be too much for the heart in some people.

T3:

12.5mcg for 5-7 days (optional but recommended)

37.5mcg for 5 days
75mcg for 15 days
50mcg for 5 days
37.5mcg for 5 days
25mcg for 5 days
12.5 mcg for 5 days
6.25mcg for 5-7 days

Clen:

30 days: 60-120mcg ED. Use clen from the first 37.5mcg dose to the last 25mcg dose. Ketotifen will make you more sensitive to clenbuterol so doses should be adjust accordingly.

Ketotifen:

Stacked with Clenbuterol, 2mg ED. This drug may not be an option for some people since it can make them extremely hungry. If this is the case, Clen should be used 2 weeks on 2 weeks off.

Anavar:

Oxandrin;

15mg ED with 37.5mcg of T3,
25mg ED with 75mcg of T3,
20mg ED with 50mcg of T3.


Here's a more sensitive approach that can be used between cycles since it doesn't include AS:

BigAndy69's T3 Cycle:

The cycle can actually be used to add muscle mass or drop body fat depending on caloric intake. For gaining muscle mass, the Yohimbine and Anastrozole are not necessary.

W1-W4:

T3: 12.5mg ED
Clen: 60-100mcg ED
Ketotifen: 2mg ED
Anastrozole: 0.5mg ED
Yohimbine: 10-15mg ED (maybe too much to handle in some)

Carb/Pro/Fat:

20-30/50-60/20

ALA: 1500mg ED
Taurine: 3g ED

W5:

T3: 6.25mg ED

L-Tyrosine: 1-2g ED
ALA: 2500mg ED
Taurine: 3g ED

Carb/Pro/Fat:

50-60/20-30/20

(High Intensity Cardio)

W6:

ALA: 1500mg ED

Carb/Pro/Fat:

40/40/20

(High Intensity Cardio)


BigAndy69's T3 Post Cycle Therapy (4-6 weeks):

Initial 3 day carb up:

Carbs: 1.75g X BW
Protein: 0.75g X BW
Fat: 0.25g X BW

Supplements:

L-Tyrosine: 1-3g ED
ALA: 1500mg ED
Flaxseed oil + Fish oil: 20g total ED

Diet: >50% Carbs/ 30% Protein/ <20% Fat, calories at maintenance (+ or - 12 X BW)

High intensity cardio: 75-80% of Max Heart Rate; 15-20 min 3-4 times a week.

No Steroids, Ephedrine, Clen, T2, DNP, or anything that has an effect on metabolism. Moderate doses of caffeine can be used before cardio.


Anything Else I should know?

T3 should be taken on an empty stomach, in the morning. If more than 50mcg is being taken, then it should be split through the day.

BigAndy69


References:


N Engl J Med 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4
Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy.
Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.

Dietary-induced alterations in thyroid hormone metabolism during overnutrition.
Danforth E Jr, Horton ES, O'Connell M, Sims EA, Burger AG, Ingbar SH, Braverman L, Vagenakis AG.

A paradigm of experimentally induced mild hyperthyroidism: effects on nitrogen balance, body composition, and energy expenditure in healthy young men.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1997 Mar;82(3):765-70 (ISSN: 0021-972X)
Lovejoy JC; Smith SR; Bray GA; De Lany JP; Rood JC; Gouvier D; Windhauser M; Ryan DH; Macchiavelli R; Tulley R
Pennington Biomedical Research Center, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge 70808, USA. [email protected].

Metabolism 1981 Aug;30(8):783-91
Whole body leucine and lysine metabolism studied with [1-13C]leucine and [alpha-15N]lysine: response in healthy young men given excess energy intake.
Motil KJ, Bier DM, Matthews DE, Burke JF, Young VR.

Rubio A, et al. "Thyroid hormone and norepinephrine signaling in brown adipose tissue. II: Differential effects of thyroid hormone on beta 3-adrenergic receptors in brown and white adipose tissue." Endocrinology 1995 Aug;136(8):3277-84

[sixey]

interesting info in this thread. i just started a low dose/short cycle of T3 today actually. i have been cutting using nothing except caffeine pre-wo for energy. acquired some T3, mainly because i was forced to get it (long story) so i read up on it and decided to give it a shot. dosing it 50mcg a day split into two doses, high protein diet with adequate carbs pre-wo. will only be running it for 3 weeks, then will continue with regular diet for at least another 3 weeks and then at that point consider if i want to do another short burst again.

at a low dose, with the proper diet, and heavy/effective training...i really doubt your muscles are simply going to dissappear.

also any input on how shutdown you thyroid would be/recovery time from a small cycle like this?

[sixey]

^^^
however with all that evidence that even long term t3 use will not negatively affect natural thyroid function severely...when the 3 week mark hits may stay on slightly longer depending on how im feeling/looking

[RED26]

Interesting info indeed.
But as nice as all the reading can sound, I think there're more real life evidence that supports my theory.

I personally took care of the diet of a friend of mine who decided to run t3 alone... Believe me, protein was high (higher than usual just for precaution) and cardio was made as it was supposed to be made... to make a long story short, EVERYTHING was in check... but, what happened? He lost muscle anyways... Yes, he was shredded at the end, but also much more skinny and flat. (Thing he didn't like, of course... But the only thing left to do was me telling him "I told you so", same thing I'm trying to prevent here)

Besides, there're some information that it simply doesn't fits properly...
I mean... 20mg of var ED??? 200mg of primo EW??? And that presumably wont shut you down?

As I stated before, no matter if it's 1 mg or 1000... Any extra (exogenous) hormones coming in your body will cause natural hormone suppression at some point.

And who in the hell supports mono-cycles anyways? I think that idea was already left in the past for the sake of new users who needed more intelligent information.

And yes, you need to use test no matter what.

I hope more people with experience on the actual real life-use of thyroid hormones come and share their experience, so this guy don't get caught on contradictory information that could end in an unwanted result.

Cheers