Rookies read me

[dumbells101]

I want to give some advice to all the people new to the site and new to AS. If you're interested in using gear then follow these guidelines. This will ensure you know everything possible about what you're in for.


1. Be certain you have exhausted all natural attempts at making gains, that you have several years of training under your belt and that you've definately reached your genetic potential.

2. Spend at least a month researching and reading posts about cycles.

3. Learn about the different AS, how they work, side effects, what they're most commonly stacked with and what bodybuilders take them for.

4. Search the threads on what do do post cycle (most importantly).

5. KNOW YOUR SOURCE and get all your gear BEFORE you start.

6. Plan your entire cycle through post cycle including supplements, any training and diet changes.

7. Make sure you're diet and training are goal oriented and and that you're cnsuming sufficient intake for each micronutrient

6. Know the possible implications for purchasing and using a class controlled substance if caught.

Keep studying.

[dane26]

very good. this should be stickey'ed

[Kullman]

Bump, good info for newbies

Kull

[Pete235]

Excellent post DB.

[Mike]

good post - bump

[ptbyjason]

Bumping because it is a great post, but I want to add something so we can cover everything here. Here's another common question.

How do I know that I have reached my genetic potential?

[PaPaPumP]

I think by reaching your genetic potential doesn't exactly mean you will never gain another ounce of muscle, or will never lose that extra .1% of body fat. IMO, it means training for years hardcore, the right way. So many people think they are training hardcore, when in fact they're not. Shit, i know i can train harder than i do now. But i just try to train a little harder every time....and i might eventually reach the "hardcore" level. Watching the scale stay stagnant for 6 months-1 year+ IMO means either serious platuea, or "genetic potential".

[MarkyMark]

Great Advice ...... Live by it ...

BUMP

[gixxerboy1]

good post
bump

[bigtraps]

Very good for everyone to know.
Great post! bump.

[dumblucky]

always check with a mod to see if your source is reliable.......

[dumbells101]

Originally posted by ptbyjason
How do I know that I have reached my genetic potential?

Tricky...first of we know your body produces growth hormone until approximately age 21. That should be the first gut check. Secondly, a lifter should have several solid years of training with all the ingredients ie. good diet, proper rest, goal oriented training. Thirdly just because you hit a plateau doesn't mean you've hit your potential, it may just mean it's time for change. So after working through several plateaus over years yes you will know that you've reached a limit. At that point I'd still recommend that you have a pro trainer, or a very experienced bb look at what you're doing to ensure you've tried every means of changing, adapting all facets. Now remember even when you reach your genetic potential that does not mean you won't make gains in strength and mass, it does however mean that they will not come easily or quickly. The bottom line here is TIME, and KNOWEDGE!

[pureanger]

Can you drink winny??????????LOL

[Big Al]

Good work d.b.

My take on genetic potential is that the retrun on investment as not increased. This means that diet, training and supplements no longer offer the muscle gains they once did. Changes in routine and uping Kcal no longer kick start growth, you have exhusted every avenue been training for 4 years or more and no your body.

[Psycoswole]

well deserved bump

[Bobo Daklown]

Originally posted by dumbells101
I want to give some advice to all the people new to the site and new to AS. If you're interested in using gear then follow these guidelines. This will ensure you know everything possible about what you're in for.


1. Be certain you have exhausted all natural attempts at making gains, that you have several years of training under your belt and that you've definately reached your genetic potential.

i have wondered if this is, perhaps, a universally accepted myth.

why?

[Psycoswole]

Originally posted by Bobo Daklown



i have wondered if this is, perhaps, a universally accepted myth.

why?

BoBo....the gains you make naturally serve as the foundation of all chemical gains. Youre gains will be that much better and that much more solid if your working on a good foundation

[Bobo Daklown]

i don't mean to be obtuse, or disagreeable, am i do think pretty much everyone agrees with you. but this is exactly what i mean when i say it sounds like an AS myth, this time from within the AS community.

fibers are fibers. sarcomeres are sarcomeres. i don't think they know where they came from.

people who have never lifted a weight before in their lives can gain on steroids. in fact, according to the NEJM, they gain muscle/lbm more quickly than folks doing the same workout naturally. so why not reach your goals more quickly? why not reach your foundation more quickly?

is there *any* evidence of tolerance? is there *any* evidence of a relationship between natural gains and ultimate outcome?

I have a simple question. WHY does everyone think this is gospel?

[Psycoswole]

Its more about discplining yourself with a solid routine and general gameplan bro. Of course someone who takes AS is going to gain muscle regardless if they workout or not. Its about maximizing the effect of the AS, thats why we eat and train like madmen. Your telling me you think its ok for someone who has just decided they want to get in to shape, to go out and start using steroids? People need to learn how to make their bodys grow naturally, what works, what doesnt, get a diet plan yada yada. Or else as soon as they quit the sauce they quit the weights

[Bobo Daklown]

I think
1. you wont get maximal benefit from gear unless you eat right does not = Beginners Shouldn't Use. you won't get maximal benefit unless you know how lift "right" (um...!! a topic unto itself) or gameplan, etc., does not = BSU. In fact, its the jsutifications like this that make me think its a universally accepted myth.

2. i think people who work out for months/years with inadequate improvement are far more prone to quit. and how many vets are dependent, psychologically, on gear? but neither your view nor mine on this topic is relevant to the premise.

3. i think a lot of the BSU theory is more morally inspired than anything else....."workout without training wheels you lazy fucks." This obviously would be merely an opinion, not a credible answer/theory.

4. Simple premise: beginner train + steroids > train as far as muscle gains go. So why not use gear from day one? Why not build faster?

as i said, i know EVERYONE agrees with you, but WHY? WHY? WHY? Is the ANY evidence for this theory?

[Psycoswole]

There a lot of risks with AAS Bobo, why put your self at a higher risk for prostate cancer and liver damage when you havent put a 100% effort into training w/ot steroids in the first place? I totally understand what your saying bro, this is actually a good discussion, i just dont want some 16 year old reading this thread and saying "hes right, if muscles are muscles, then i could start using now". I know your not referring to just 16 year olds but the statement "Reach your genetic potential" IMO is directed more at the younger crowd who are so anxious to find the easy road, that they dont give there bodies enough time. Definately a topic not usually debated and am interested in hearing more from you

[Psycoswole]

im yet to see a a study done on this topic in the NEJM, Eur, J. Appl. Physiol. ,GSSI, MSSE ,ill try to get some relevant studies if i come across any bobo

[Pete235]

I agree with physcoswole. Since I'm not a vet of the AAS game I won't even attempt to counterpoint what Bobo is presenting. But I feel that encouraging somebody to train naturally first is not only beneficial from a health standpoint (we know of the additional risks of using when you're too young), but from a mental standpoint. By saying muscles are muscles and they will grow regardless of the previous stresses put on them, we are in fact lending credibility to starting at an early age.....we're providing a short cut for teens to get the body they want. I remember when I was 16 - 18. I would have done ANYTHING for 20-25lbs of muscle in a matter of months (small town...little access to gear..that's the main reason I didn't). Most men think this way, whether it's to attract girls, get strong in the gym, bolster our egos or excel at athletics. I don't mean to offend our younger members, but I don't feel at 18 I was mature, or intelligent, enough to make such a decision. As I got older and saw improvements from natural training I stopped even considering using AAS, not for moral reasons, but because I wasn;t ready to educate muself. One of our most respected and intelligent mods, who is also a good friend of mine, started at an early age and now is the biggest opponent of using AAS too early. I won't ramble, but I think we have an obligation to try and keep our fellow iron bros safe, and regardless of lack of evidence suggesting otherwise, one of the best ways to provide this is to recommend learning the basic principles and attempting to gain as much muscle naturally before contemplating using AAS. Just my .02

[stevie]

hey guys im new to this board

I don't really think there's one right way/time to take AS, be it after you've reached your "genetic potential" or whether you're just starting to lift. It seems to me that veteran BBs don't like weight lifting newbies to go on roids because of the simplicity of it all. Most vets put years and years into making natural gains, and they just don't want to see Joe Couchpotato go to the gym for a month and get gains that took them years (im not saying this is a bad thing by any means either).

This is more of a moral debate than one about physical health and safety, or at least that's my opinion (for whatever its worth). I think you can start using AS whenever you want to, and if you dont work out and go and start a 12 week cycle with 100mg d-bol a day and you've never even heard of nolva or clomid... well I'm sorry but that's your fault and you're dumb, but it's still within your right as a person to do it. So basically, I don't believe there's one specific time you should start taking AS, and it should be left up to the descretion of the user, but let them be prepared for whatever reactions occur, be it acne or liver failure.

Steve

[Bobo Daklown]

I gotta run.....a couple quick notes:

1. it is a good discussion, perhaps one that should be retitled if vets might be avoiding this thread. as i said, i know EVERYONE thinks avoiding is gospel, so seeing what there is, aside from moral stuff, to the theory (or myth, if i'm right) is worthwhile.....

2. there is a nejm study (i *believe*.....i'll look it up later) that says previously untrained males on roids and resistance training gain faster than just resistance training.

3. TEENAGERS SHOULDN"T JUICE. TEENAGERS SHOULDN'T JUICE. TEENAGERS SHOULDN'T JUICE. If you can't spell epiphyseal don't juice. If you're not at least 20 don't juice. God I would be bummed if some teenager read this thread and started. On that topic there is absolutely no debate:TEENAGERS SHOULDN'T JUICE.

[Psycoswole]

Originally posted by Bobo Daklown


2. there is a nejm study (i *believe*.....i'll look it up later) that says previously untrained males on roids and resistance training gain faster than just resistance training.

No need bro, its obvious.


A beginner could gain 50lbs in a year of lean mass, a little under a lb a week, safely, without AAS. Again,using AAS and increasing health problems for the sake of weight gain or fat loss, seems a little extreme for someone who has not even put time in the gym to devolop a good base, dont you agree bobo? Again, your right that im not giving evidence that a base would be more beneficial when starting AS, rather im merely implying that it just doesnt make sense to to jump into something so extreme without trying to accomplish goals naturally. It may turn out the guy never needed to use AS to attain his goals, that would have saved him from all the negative effects associated w/steroids. Thats why so many 'preach' this theory. Remember steroids are not perfect, they have consequences.

[Ilyich]

(sorry for the long post)

Good to see an intellectually stimulating discussion making its way into the world of BBing
Bobo Daklown, I agree with what you are saying. Your argument is valid and the premises are true.

The argument put forward by the majority, however, although very questionable, can be understood nevertheless from a less strict logical perspective. Indeed, it seems that the 'myth' we are talking about is very much a child of the more senior athletes that either care about the younger aspirants or (lets hope that is not the case) that want to maintain a distance in terms of physical development.

Generally, it is a very good idea to discourage people from taking roids for as long as possible, since the chances are you will be saving an uneducated soul from the conseqences of an ill-though out cycle. I am afraid the majority of people that contemplate AS use, start thinking about it before they have any knowledge on the subject. Hopefully, if you encourage them to train naturally, you give them a time space in which they can gain the necessary knowledge about roids, diet, training etc.

However, notice the word 'generally'. I believe that as long as a person is prepared to face the consequences, truly understands what he is doing, has a good diet and training plan, and knows that squats are only counted as squats when u go to parallel or below, then AS use may be considered.

I know several people who started roids at as early as 15-16. Some 4-5 years later they dont have amazing physiques, but not because they started so early, but because they were mainly in it for powerlifting. One of em (Igor Medvedev), in fact, developed a bench of over 200kg at only 19, which I doubt he would have been able to do without AS. And neither would he be able to dominate the powerlifting scene in Russia if he waited some 10 years to reach his full genetic potential.

The same can be said about all pro athletes and BBers. Its no secret that all PROs started juicing at their teens. They might have fucked up health but who is going to argue that they should have waited to exhaust all natural potential first?!
Seriously, if anyone thinks of competing or developing an impressive physique by their early-mid 20s, then one must start early -- in the teens. I just do not see any other miracle way of getting a top body by staying natural. Of course if one's ambitions are more humble, may be just lose some fat, add a little bit of muscle, then it is utterly irrational to risk health. You might as well take your time and get there in a healthier way. Of course, if health is a priority to you. To some it is not.

But once you start thinking about BBing more than you think about sex, once you start seeing yourself benching in your sleep, when your days are called after workouts, when you wake up at 3am to down a protein shake, then you probably have the right kind of dedication and ambition to enter the AS world, no matter what anyone says.

Waiting till you are 30 or something, when your test levels are down, till you are degressing rather than progressing is just stupid. In a similar fashion, we may adopt a strategy of not taking protein supplements until we reach our limits without protein supplements. In fact, why start eating right from the start if you can make some gains on 'wrong' food? Why bother with proper training if you will make some progress just by doing a half-arsed workout? Why bother starting weights at all until you totally stopped growing?

There is no way your superior 'natural base' is gonna give you a better body than that of someone who's been hardcore since the word 'go'.


Ilyich

[Psycoswole]

Well if your striving to be a pro bb that is a diff story. I think the rule of thumb for non competitors (id guess more than 75% of this board) should be to use AS to get through plateaus. There is also no way of knowing when youve reached your 'natural limit' so im not dissagreeing with the theory, just tryin to offer another perspective. So far some good debate

[basskiller]

But what if I don't want to! na na na na


I'm friggin losing it!

J/K
bass

[Psycoswole]

Im with you on that BK, LOL! Im going to change my handle to spindoctor

[DEI]

My personal experience is that I started on AAS, after several times I reached the same weight (training for about 5 years), either eating very healthy, increasing calories, and then even with fat, I couldnt grow more without a big belley, so I thought of using AAS, and researched about them, for about 4 or 5 months, because I needed to be certain of my decision, and no because someone told me to do it, there is no turning back when you do it.

So untill that moment happened I started them (previously I started with clen, and mild substances, then JUICE).

I think it was a good way to tell I reached my genetic potential, and go for the next step.

[Bobo Daklown]

Originally posted by Psycoswole

A beginner could gain 50lbs in a year of lean mass, a little under a lb a week, safely, without AAS. Again,using AAS and increasing health problems for the sake of weight gain or fat loss, seems a little extreme for someone who has not even put time in the gym to devolop a good base, dont you agree bobo? ***** It may turn out the guy never needed to use AS to attain his goals, that would have saved him from all the negative effects associated w/steroids. Thats why so many 'preach' this theory. Remember steroids are not perfect, they have consequences.

COULD, being the operative. Take 20 people. Split em into two wings. 10 juice and train. 10 train. Maybe 1 of the latter will put on 50lbs lbm. If they are over 30 the latter number will be zero. Give them two cycles and most of the former will be up there. There is no doubt which group is going to be bigger.

I don't agree at all that's why people preach the theory...i think everybody has sort of accepted the wisdom of beginners shouldn't juice without much thought. That's what #1 says. People tell 30 year olds not to juice until they've trained for a few years! Ironically the very folks who deride the overblown/poorly thought out criticisms of gear say this. This is anabolicreview, so I am aiming for non-mythic non-moral discussion. Ultimately what i am after is whether somebody has a lucid rationale.

i agree about safety. i agree about knowledge, eating, etc. I especially agree about kids (if you are a teen and want to juice you better take a *lot* cuz your brain obviously ain't gonna take you far in life). but these issues pertain to everyone, not beginners. sides are sides, whether you are a beginner or not. some people think its extreme juice at all. when people say don't use them until you reach genetic potential they are saying something different.

lets assume you have decided to do at least one cycle. you have also never so much as lifted a weight in your life previously. you will train for 1/2/3 years whatever and then juice. or juice from day one. what I am proposing (asking) is that there is no physical reason, none, to wait until you have reached your genetic potential. If you are beginner and want results more quickly juice. Juice from day one. Juice quickly. Juice often. Juice safely. I have seen no reason not to. results are results, whether natural or not.

at least i haven't heard why this isn't so......

[Ilyich]

The only possible reason, well may be only one of the reasons (I haven't thought of any other ones yet) not to juice from the start even if you are very dedicated and learned, is that the body needs to adopt to heavy resistance training. I mean the CNS, the tendons, the ligaments etc have to learn how to handle heavy weight. If you jump onto AS straight away and start shifting weight that is far beyond your current capacity, you do risk injuring yourself.
Hence it makes sense to train for at least a year or two to develop the base.



Ilyich

[Psycoswole]

Bobo, good arguments have been put forth bro, if you get to your limit youll need less juice to reach your goal. Less juice=better health. Is it that hard to understand, use some common sense, with AAS more is not better, get as far as you can without having to use compounds that have effects on your health

[Bobo Daklown]

i see i am tilting at windmills.

less juice = better health?!!!!

do you think that's what #1 at the very top of this thread meant?!

do you think that caution is more appropriately leveled at a newbie, so that he might avoid the health consequences of one or two cycles to reach genetic limit, or to a vet doing some of the stuff vets do to try to defy their genes?

[Pete235]

BD, you write like Megamorph from "Anabolex". No offence meant bro.

[Bobo Daklown]

none taken. but only cuz i don't have a clue what you are talking about? should i?

i'm not trying to be a dick (honest)....i figured this was to place to discuss these things. i can drop it if its getting tedious.

[Pete235]

Originally posted by Bobo Daklown
none taken. but only cuz i don't have a clue what you are talking about? should i
i'm not trying to be a dick (honest)....i figured this was to place to discuss these things. i can drop it if its getting tedious.

No, all I meant was that your writing style reminded me a lot of a member on "Anabolex" and since there is a lot of crossover on the boards, with differen't usernames, I thought you might be the same person. Mt apologies...I'll be up front and just ask from now on.

I'm sure nobody thinks you're a dick. Differen't POV's and the occasional heated discussion is good for the board (as long as there's no flaming).

[Psycoswole]

Originally posted by Bobo Daklown
i see i am tilting at windmills.

less juice = better health?!!!!

do you think that's what #1 at the very top of this thread meant?!

do you think that caution is more appropriately leveled at a newbie, so that he might avoid the health consequences of one or two cycles to reach genetic limit, or to a vet doing some of the stuff vets do to try to defy their genes?

Bobo, i think #1 at the top of this list incorporates a lot of things, and this is one of them, Ilyich mentioned a some good reasons as well.

Newbies are looking for advice and guidance so of course the caution is directed at newbies, if a vet decides to go to the extreme its his business, hes the vet. There is no evidence of a relationship between natural gains and ultimate outcome, but it is still in the newbies best interest to at least 'try' to get some where naturally.

I think were playing with two extremes. We are suggesting that someone should exhaust "ALL" attempts before steroid use and you are at the other extreme that someone could use steroids from the start. If steroids were a perfect drug then i would 100% agree with you, but they have consequences and so again i think its in the newbies best interest to build a foundation and have to use less to get to 250lbs then the guy who started with juice from the beginning and is now 250. This maximizes the effect of the steroids, no?

[Bobo Daklown]

Originally posted by Psycoswole

***** Ilyich mentioned a some good reasons as well.

*****We are suggesting that someone should exhaust "ALL" attempts before steroid use and you are at the other extreme that someone could use steroids from the start. ********This maximizes the effect of the steroids, no?

i don't buy the injury reasoning, though i thought it was a good try.

for the record, I don't suggest anything, for anyone. I think very, very, very, very, very few vets even have thought out the unknown health impacts.

all that i am saying is take bb#1 and bb#2 both just starting to train not at all near genetic limit. All things being equal, #1 juices only once to start a 2 year training period, #2 juices only once but nearer the end (but far enough to lose what he'll lose). if anyone is bigger its #1. The only really significant difference is that bb#1 got laid a lot more during those two years.

i think we sort of agree, but that you do not realize how heretical you have now become.