Optimal level of estradiol while on cycle?

[5x10]

Got blood work done
unfortunantly, only got total test, it measured in at >1500
on 300mgs of deca, 400mgs of test a week

heres what concerns me, i know that too low of estrogen can be bad
my estradiol measured in at 21


am i taking on additional risks with having that low of a estro to test ratio?

i am taking 12.5 aromasin ed, so i can help manage that level

[zaggahamma]

this isnt the cycle forum but 12.5 what???????

mg's?

[GotNoBlueMilk]

E2 at 21 is a good number clinically speaking. It can go even lower without health issues. Typically, osteoporosis becomes an issue if E2 goes gets to 10 or lower. Gyno can become an issue if it goes above 30 (many people reach 40+ and no gyno issues).

If you want to lose fat, you want E2 on the lower end and not the higher end. Keep in mind that the farmers give cattle estrogen to fatten them up, not testosterone.

[5x10]

this isnt the cycle forum but 12.5 what???????

mg's?

yes, sorry, 12.5mg ed
after reading through the different sections, i thought this one was the most informed in blood work, thats why i posted it here

[flatscat]

there is talk off and on about an ideal t to e ratio, but I am not buying it. I think 20-40 or so is fine for most guys. i know some say they have gyno symptoms around 40, but I would find it hard to believe that actual gyno can develop at that level for 99% of the men out there. The other thing to consider, and I am not up on it enough to really talk about, but you do need a certain amount of E to build muscle and strentgh, go too low and your performance in those areas will suffer.

It is scary to think of how many overweight and obese men are walking around with natty E2 levels of 50,60, 80 and above (of which the vast majority do not have gyno{they may have a fatty chest}).

All of this depends on what range you are talking about - I am using what mine says on my labs and it is around 12-50 or so.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

@flatscat: My labs say E2 < 30 for a range (Quest). So I go off the 30 as the upper limit. I can't get close to 30 w/o getting gyno symptoms, but I know I am extremely sensative and far from typical. Others are extremly insensative and can handle large E2 levels.

Gyno requires E2 and IGF! If you have low IGF your E2 can be much higher w/o gyno symptoms. No E2 means no gyno no matter how high your IGF is. I bet a lot of the fat guys with E2 @ 50+ have low IGF. This stands to reason anyway.

I have never had my IGF levels tested. I know that HCG raises them, so mine are probably on the upper end anyway.

[flatscat]

exogenous t is supposed to raise igf levels - so if hcg raises t then it would stand to reason that what you said is correct also.

[5x10]

yeah, the more i read, it seems that the ratio isnt important, but the # itself
i was told to keep in the 20s regardless of test

[flatscat]

by whom

[VegasRenegade]

The E2 look like a good number but 12.5 EOD seems pretty high

[Vettester]

30 is the optimal E2 number (IMO). Agree with Vegas, 12.5mg EOD is high.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

I think 12.5 mg EOD is high too, but look at his E2 level. If it was low then cut back. But he can't cut back too much if he is already at 21.

[flatscat]

we dont know the ranges

[GotNoBlueMilk]

we dont know the ranges

Good point. I assumed the value was pg/ml, but that is not a given.

[Bullseye Forever]

well i got my blood test for E2 done yesterday,fr the first time ever,so im really waiting to see what my levels are

[5x10]

by whom

bodybuilder friend whos befriended(and pays a ton of $$ to) a hormone doc
i text him, he tells me what the docs responded with

sorry for not posting the units 21.1 pg/ml

im doing 12.5mg of aromasin every day
sounds like ill switch it to EOD

would my estradiol level have any effect on hdl(i think i read it would)
my hdl went from 61 to 39

[Vettester]

E2 is already at the low end, you'll start seeing sides if you go much lower.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

E2 does affect cholesterol levels. Another reason you don't want it too low. The only bad thing about higher that I have experienced is some water retention and gyno. But I get gyno at 28 pg/ml so my E2 has never gotten high by typical standards.

So the real issue is when does the gyno kick in for you (you don't want to find out). Also if E2 gets too high it starts to compete with the T and you get diminished benefits from the T. You definately don't want your E2 lower, and a little higher would benefit the HDL. Just don't let it go out of control.

[flatscat]

range on the E2? again. not units

[5x10]

range on the E2? again. not units

only # on the test in regards to estradiol is the 21.2, no range was given

are you asking for the normal low-high range for men?


this is my 3rd cycle, all have been deca/test, never used an aromatise inhibitor before and never had gyno issues, so i have no problem moving the aromasin dosing to EOD or E3D
my libido hasnt popped up like last cycles and im sure its the estro
also, 5 weeks in, ive only gained 10lbs, which is good because alot of the normal bloat isnt there, pros and cons to low estro
thanks fellas

[flatscat]

You really need to find out the ranges - maybe you can call the lab or your doc. without the range you have no idea where you stand brother, and they can vary not only between lab companies, but between lab locations as well.

[5x10]

You really need to find out the ranges - maybe you can call the lab or your doc. without the range you have no idea where you stand brother, and they can vary not only between lab companies, but between lab locations as well.

what info does the range give you?
are you talking about Labcorps(who i got the test through) recommended ranges of estradiol for men?

[flatscat]

aight, I see your point, but there are different types of E2 tests like ultra sensitive that have a different range than the standard E2. Also, while one would think a unit is a unit, different labs may give different results based on a different methodology as to how they perform the process thereby giving a different range for highs and lows based on the results of the patients they have performed labs on than another company. Doesn't make sense to me either, but I have seen it before.

[flatscat]

If your E2 result is based on the common L.C. ranges for men then I also think you are borderline low and agree with Vette that 30 is optimal for most of us.

[zaggahamma]

food for thought here..

if the measurements are the same...example: 2 labs using ng/dl ......if these labs have different ranges but are using the same measurement would the ranges make one result differ??

[GotNoBlueMilk]

The units are the most important. Different labs can actually give some tests in different units. But if the you the units the ranges given by the lab are only the lab's range value, which can vary by lab. Some labs will vary the ranges based on age for certain tests, but not all tests. If you know the units, you can use your own range of what is best. Of course, I am a chemist so this is extremely simple for me. Your results may vary.

[GotNoBlueMilk]

If you look at the sticky "Interpretation of Free Testosterone, Estrogen, and Total Testosterone Blood Tests" in this forum, it has the following info on ranges for Estrogen:

"Estrogen (measured as estradiol) should be in the mid- to lower-normal range. If estradiol levels are in the upper one-third of the normal reference range, or above the normal reference range, this excessive level of estrogen should be reduced. Labcorp lists a reference range of between 3-70 picogram/mL for estradiol while Quest states a reference range of between 10-50. For optimal health, estradiol should be in the range of 10-30 picogram/mL for a man of any age."

The above is outdated with regard to Quest though, because they list optimal range for a male as < 30 pg/ml, not 10-50. Anyway, between this sticky and the fact that Quest reports optimal range as < 30, most people go with the 30 as the upper limit for E2.

[zaggahamma]

The units are the most important. Different labs can actually give some tests in different units. But if the you the units the ranges given by the lab are only the lab's range value, which can vary by lab. Some labs will vary the ranges based on age for certain tests, but not all tests. If you know the units, you can use your own range of what is best. Of course, I am a chemist so this is extremely simple for me. Your results may vary.

so your answer to my ?????? is no??????????

[flatscat]

and ultra sensitive E2? different test, different ranges?

[GotNoBlueMilk]

so your answer to my ?????? is no??????????

The answer is no. Look at lab ranges like this: I go to one doc and he sees my T is 301. He says I am good so not HRT. I go down the street to another doc and he freaks cause my T is too low and gives me HRT. This is what lab ranges are like. Different labs will publish different ranges even though the ranges are based on the same units. I don't know exactly how they come up with these ranges, but all of the labs seem to disagree on what the ranges should be on many of the tests. Some tests are consistent.

[zaggahamma]

The answer is no. Look at lab ranges like this: I go to one doc and he sees my T is 301. He says I am good so not HRT. I go down the street to another doc and he freaks cause my T is too low and gives me HRT. This is what lab ranges are like. Different labs will publish different ranges even though the ranges are based on the same units. I don't know exactly how they come up with these ranges, but all of the labs seem to disagree on what the ranges should be on many of the tests. Some tests are consistent.

this is my point...if the measurements are the same at 5 different labs with 5 different RANGES it doesnt change the fact you have the same result

[GotNoBlueMilk]

Yes the same result. But the whole discussion is around E2 right now. So is < 30 best range, 3-70 best range, or some value over 10 so we don't get osteoperosis and bad lipids? My point I have been trying to drive home is you can't just say, "my lab says 3-70 is good". For the majority of people 70 is going to make them fat and many will get gyno. 3 is going to give them brittle bones, lipid issues, low sex drive, and make them feel bad in general. So the lab ranges are really worthless. We are trying to get to "optimal" numbers for best health.

I know that my idea of best E2 range is skewed by the fact that I get gyno at 28. I know another person's idea of best E2 range is skewed by the fact that they are at 60+, no gyno, and feel great. But just like best T levels, there is a best E2 level that works for most people. That level seems to be in the 10-30 range as a low and high, with being on the high end of that range better than being on the low end of that range. The higher end affords better mood, better lipids, etc. The only disadvantage is some extra water and fat.

[zaggahamma]

Yes the same result. But the whole discussion is around E2 right now. So is < 30 best range, 3-70 best range, or some value over 10 so we don't get osteoperosis and bad lipids? My point I have been trying to drive home is you can't just say, "my lab says 3-70 is good". For the majority of people 70 is going to make them fat and many will get gyno. 3 is going to give them brittle bones, lipid issues, low sex drive, and make them feel bad in general. So the lab ranges are really worthless. We are trying to get to "optimal" numbers for best health.

I know that my idea of best E2 range is skewed by the fact that I get gyno at 28. I know another person's idea of best E2 range is skewed by the fact that they are at 60+, no gyno, and feel great. But just like best T levels, there is a best E2 level that works for most people. That level seems to be in the 10-30 range as a low and high, with being on the high end of that range better than being on the low end of that range. The higher end affords better mood, better lipids, etc. The only disadvantage is some extra water and fat.

i agree that the sweet spot is going to be different for many and best determined by as much bloodwork as possible in combination to monitoring you symptoms/gains/well being/etc