HDL in pro bodybuilders cycles

[Slacker78]

Hello brothers, here is a question which sometimes flow on my mind.

I've seen HDL dropping about 7-10% ( and sometimes more ) in many guys ( me for first ) who even perform light steroids cycles ( 600mg/wk of total gear). Leaving apart compounds specific analysis, i have thought sometimes about big cycles pro body builders do, when the dosage reach 2-5+ grams of gear at week. Although is possible control it ( i've seen a good thread by Kelkel ), if light cycle cause a significant HDL reduction ( raising LDL too ), i wonder at high level with hard steroids cycles how the stuff is managed.... or if those pro body builders accept the high risk to have HDL near critical threshold playing to russian roulette with their bodies. I know is possible to handle the LDL too counterbalancing HDL lowering.... but when one is on an hard cycle and find his HDL is too critical, lowering steroids dosages, could invalidate the effectiveness of the Whole cycle protocol... so in these cases, how is managed the thing ?

[Slacker78]

Is this an hard scientific question ?

[thewarrior8845]

im sure watching diet is a big part of controlling hdl/ldl. my mom has be vegetarian most of her life and last time she had blood work done her hdl was 84.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

Short answer....
Although I've never seen labwork from a top pro I would bet money that it isn't pretty.
Bad lipids, high blood pressure, thick blood.

[MuscleInk]

im sure watching diet is a big part of controlling hdl/ldl. my mom has be vegetarian most of her life and last time she had blood work done her hdl was 84.

Very likely. As we have said a million times and we'll say it a million times more, nutrition is everything. So many guys wonder about the gear the pros take but very few ask about their nutrition. The pros aren't getting as big as they are on gear alone. Their nutrition is beyond what most guys could fathom here. When newbies say their diets are good, it's almost laughable. The majority have no idea what proper nutrition should be to maximize gains and their heads would probably explode if they saw how the pros eat and how often.

Moreover, very few if any guys here have any idea what the pros take to manage other problems that may occur and it's unlikely many would confess to it if there was a problem.

Don't under estimate the dangers of hyperlipidemia and low HDL. My LDL was 243 and my HDL 11 and my BP 180/78 and I was asymptomatic before I ruptured two blood vessels last week. The story might have had a very different ending had those ruptured arteries been cerebral arteries!!!

Everyone responds differently to steroids. Just because one person's lipid profiles are reasonable on steroids don't assume that yours will be too. Safe, responsible steroid use means checking your blood work and acting responsibly before a problem occurs.

[tectime]

Very likely. As we have said a million times and we'll say it a million times more, nutrition is everything. So many guys wonder about the gear the pros take but very few ask about their nutrition. The pros aren't getting as big as they are on gear alone. Their nutrition is beyond what most guys could fathom here. When newbies say their diets are good, it's almost laughable. The majority have no idea what proper nutrition should be to maximize gains and their heads would probably explode if they saw how the pros eat and how often. Moreover, very few if any guys here have any idea what the pros take to manage other problems that may occur and it's unlikely many would confess to it if there was a problem. Everyone responds differently to steroids. Just because one person's lipid profiles are reasonable on steroids don't assume that yours will be too. Safe, responsible steroid use means checking your blood work and acting responsibly before a problem occurs.

Right on as always! The food intake alone and the picky knit picking what can be eaten when should with what Like a full time job I'm thinking ! Hahaha ! Oh my ! When we eat dinner together his wife just starts the count. Haha amazing to watch! He's pro level and a big ****ing ripped up dude but you have to eat at their home cause no restaurant can accommodate that dude. I'm a picky very clean eater myself ha not next to his routine.

[Slacker78]

It's inconceivable diet play the main role in body building life style and control steroids cycles activity. Yes, the scenarios could be rich of variables: type of compounds, their combinations and time, diet, supplements, etc.. etc..

The adjustments could be multiple and one has to find what formula work for each. The main role is diet anyway, mixed to supplements: red rice, NAC and niacin. I think playing around diet and the 3 latter items, most of lipids profiles should be under control. Regard to steroids, i think the more powerful impact on lipids is given by Testosterone; for example, Sustanon could get the most negative impact on lipids profile, less Deca or Trenbolon; even an AI could be the difference. I don't know if it's so, but this is just my supposition.

[Shield]

First, there is medications that control LDL. And which you can get if you do blood work, and I'm assuming you do.
Second, there is eating fish and taking fish oil supplements.
However, people react differenty, and if it continue to miss with LDL levels, you should consider stopping because it is your cardiovascular health we talking about

[MuscleInk]

First, there is medications that control LDL. And which you can get if you do blood work, and I'm assuming you do.
Second, there is eating fish and taking fish oil supplements.
However, people react differenty, and if it continue to miss with LDL levels, you should consider stopping because it is your cardiovascular health we talking about

Fish oils have a larger impact on triglycerides; much smaller effect on LDL and HDL. Niacin and RYR exerts a larger effect on LDL and HDL but may not lower risk of cardiac disease.

[Slacker78]

Fish oils have a larger impact on triglycerides; much smaller effect on LDL and HDL. Niacin and RYR exerts a larger effect on LDL and HDL but may not lower risk of cardiac disease.

Fish Oil has impact to HDL subfraction ( HDL2 ) that in many studies was seen more determinant for heart disease risk. Control Triglycerides is the main factor to control cardiovascular diseases. Why did you tell Niacin and RYR do not lower risk of cardiac diasease although they significantly improve lipid profile LDL/HDL balance ?

[MuscleInk]

Fish Oil has impact to HDL subfraction ( HDL2 ) that in many studies was seen more determinant for heart disease risk. Control Triglycerides is the main factor to control cardiovascular diseases. Why did you tell Niacin and RYR do not lower risk of cardiac diasease although they significantly improve lipid profile LDL/HDL balance ?

The reference was specific to niacin. Please refer to Michael McCarthy's publication this month on the HPS2-THRIVE study on naicin or the larger publication in the New England Journal of Medicine (2014).

McCarthy, M. (2014). Niacin fails to reduce vascular events in large randomized trial. The British Medical Journal, 349-350

[MuscleInk]

Fish Oil has impact to HDL subfraction ( HDL2 ) that in many studies was seen more determinant for heart disease risk. Control Triglycerides is the main factor to control cardiovascular diseases. Why did you tell Niacin and RYR do not lower risk of cardiac diasease although they significantly improve lipid profile LDL/HDL balance ?

Can you post a reference to that research on fish oil please? I'd like to read it. There is also a dose dependent benefit but I suspect most people do not know what those doses are and that krill oil offers greater benefits than fish oil.

[MuscleInk]

Fish Oil has impact to HDL subfraction ( HDL2 ) that in many studies was seen more determinant for heart disease risk. Control Triglycerides is the main factor to control cardiovascular diseases. Why did you tell Niacin and RYR do not lower risk of cardiac diasease although they significantly improve lipid profile LDL/HDL balance ?

And for a balanced review of fish oils, I recommend you give the following publication a read:

Peskins, B.S. (2014). Why fish oil fails: a comprehensive 21st - century lipids based physiological analysis. Journal of Lipids. 1-15.

[Slacker78]

Can you post a reference to that research on fish oil please? I'd like to read it. There is also a dose dependent benefit but I suspect most people do not know what those doses are and that krill oil offers greater benefits than fish oil.

Give me the time to find it, as i've formatted my pc right now...

P.S: I've sent you several PM... i hope do not be felt you annoyed.

[MuscleInk]

Give me the time to find it, as i've formatted my pc right now...

P.S: I've sent you several PM... i hope do not be felt you annoyed.

No worries.

Not sure why my reply didn't go out. I had sent you a response for one final day of Biaxin @ 500mg p.o. then discontinue but I'm sure the problem has cleared up.

[Slacker78]

No worries.

Not sure why my reply didn't go out. I had sent you a response for one final day of Biaxin @ 500mg p.o. then discontinue but I'm sure the problem has cleared up.

Ah ok. Yes, i'm healed with 3 pills of 500mg of Clarithro. Thank you for your interest MuscleInk, i've appreciated this a lot by you.

This is one study about HDL2 raising with Fatty acids: Omega-3 fatty acids selectively raise high-densit... [Metabolism. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI

Elsewhere, i've seen other studies which confirm this and the fact that triglycerides level is more important that LDL/HDL balance. Further, being HDL/LDL balance is not an absolute indicator of protection about cardiovascular diseases, implies that other factors are involved and often, a common denominator, was triglycerides unbalance. In every case, nutrition is the more powerful tool to control total cholesterol.

[numbere]

I was told in a biology lecture that the best way to assess overall cholesterol health is the ratio of total cholesterol / HDL. A result less than 4.5 is considered normal, and above 4.5 puts you in the high risk category. LDLs only a problem when the amount gets high enough to elevate the previous ratio above 4.5. One's LDL profile can be managed through diet, exercise and monitoring of stress. Also, cholesterol tests are extremely sensitive. Having a stressful commute to the clinic or a fear of needles can have a large impact on results.

[Slacker78]

I was told in a biology lecture that the best way to assess overall cholesterol health is the ratio of total cholesterol / HDL. A result less than 4.5 is considered normal, and above 4.5 puts you in the high risk category. LDLs only a problem when the amount gets high enough to elevate the previous ratio above 4.5. One's LDL profile can be managed through diet, exercise and monitoring of stress. Also, cholesterol tests are extremely sensitive. Having a stressful commute to the clinic or a fear of needles can have a large impact on results.

Keeping the ratio equal or less 4.5, is pretty hard on cycle. The fight to it with diet and exercise, just target to control LDL activity; Handling HDL is possible too, but is the minor stuff respect the main target, that is what i told before. Triglycerides are more important entity.

[numbere]

Keeping the ratio equal or less 4.5, is pretty hard on cycle. The fight to it with diet and exercise, just target to control LDL activity; Handling HDL is possible too, but is the minor stuff respect the main target, that is what i told before. Triglycerides are more important entity.

Yes it can be difficult to LDLs. However, the amount of LDLs usually has to be around 3 times higher than what is considered normal in order to to skew the CHO / LDL ratio into the danger zone.

[Slacker78]

Yes it can be difficult to LDLs. However, the amount of LDLs usually has to be around 3 times higher than what is considered normal in order to to skew the CHO / LDL ratio into the danger zone.

Sure. However, the danger zone starts over 5.0 really AFAIK.

[numbere]

Sure. However, the danger zone starts over 5.0 really AFAIK.

Let's hope neither of us get their and find out first hand

[Slacker78]

Let's hope neither of us get their and find out first hand

Mine for now is 5.4 i'm taking NAC, Fish oil and Niacin ( diet and cardio are included of course... )

[numbere]

Mine for now is 5.4 i'm taking NAC, Fish oil and Niacin ( diet and cardio are included of course... )

Wow 5.4 is a bit high, god speed. I have taken niacin daily for a few years and have noticed a huge difference in potency from brand to brand. Solgar is by far the best I have used so far.

[Slacker78]

Wow 5.4 is a bit high, god speed. I have taken niacin daily for a few years and have noticed a huge difference in potency from brand to brand. Solgar is by far the best I have used so far.

Respect to what i've seen, is very very low ... ! 0.4 is just over the safe zone... How much niacin did you take ?

[numbere]

Respect to what i've seen, is very very low ... ! 0.4 is just over the safe zone... How much niacin did you take ?

I take 500mg/ED of Solgar niacin. Honestly, 500mg is all I can tolerate. It's powerful stuff compared to the other labels on the market. Most brands I can take over twice that amount and not flush or get that tingly feeling niacin gives.

[Deal Me In]

RYR?

Anyone.

[Slacker78]

I take 500mg/ED of Solgar niacin. Honestly, 500mg is all I can tolerate. It's powerful stuff compared to the other labels on the market. Most brands I can take over twice that amount and not flush or get that tingly feeling niacin gives.

Did you have test niacin feedback related to HDL / total Cholesterol level ( blood work before and after ) ?

[numbere]

Did you have test niacin feedback related to HDL / total Cholesterol level ( blood work before and after ) ?

I began taking niacin before I started researching AAS. In other words I don't have a baseline lab without niacin before using AAS.

You should see a 15-30% raise in HDL after taking niacin. LDL can lower anywhere from 10-20% and triglycerides by as much as 20-50%. One aspect you should be aware of is that the the data from the scientific studies where these numbers are generated from are conducted with pharmacy grade niacin. Over the counter niacin doesn't have to meet the same standards as pharmacy grade.

Maybe you should think about taking a statin to get you cholesterol into a more comfortable range.

[Machdiesel]

Many people say in order to be a pro you need good genetics AND be able to handle large amounts of gear. The ones who can't need to stop, the ones who can keep going. Then you have the ones that csnt but still keep going they are dead now

[Slacker78]

Many people say in order to be a pro you need good genetics AND be able to handle large amounts of gear. The ones who can't need to stop, the ones who can keep going. Then you have the ones that csnt but still keep going they are dead now

Yes, it's even my consideration those ones who die, they challenge their bodies do not respecting the signals the body send to them. My suspect is, leaving out other cases, those ones who die, overcome their limits accepting the risk. That's not my target. I will adjust to the amount of gear, my body will be able to support. I think this is what any steroids user should apply in its conscious use of the steroids.

[MuscleInk]

RYR?

Anyone.

Red Yeast Rice

[Slacker78]

I began taking niacin before I started researching AAS. In other words I don't have a baseline lab without niacin before using AAS.

You should see a 15-30% raise in HDL after taking niacin. LDL can lower anywhere from 10-20% and triglycerides by as much as 20-50%. One aspect you should be aware of is that the the data from the scientific studies where these numbers are generated from are conducted with pharmacy grade niacin. Over the counter niacin doesn't have to meet the same standards as pharmacy grade.

Maybe you should think about taking a statin to get you cholesterol into a more comfortable range.

I think using a good niacin profile, i could get more comfortable range. It's better to try another way before statin, i think. Did you get could improvemente taking niacin at 500mg/ ED (Solarg i mean.. ) ?

[numbere]

I think using a good niacin profile, i could get more comfortable range. It's better to try another way before statin, i think. Did you get could improvemente taking niacin at 500mg/ ED (Solarg i mean.. ) ?

I never had my cholesterol checked before stating to take niacin. Wish I had some before and after lab data for you to examine. I know what you mean about trying to avoid statins. They can have some bad side effects.

[MuscleInk]

I never had my cholesterol checked before stating to take niacin. Wish I had some before and after lab data for you to examine. I know what you mean about trying to avoid statins. They can have some bad side effects.

Might want to add taurine as well.

Taurine has a lot of benefits and acts an an antihypertensive because it produces endothelium dependent and independent relaxation effects on blood vessels.

[numbere]

Might want to add taurine as well.

Taurine has a lot of benefits and acts an an antihypertensive because it produces endothelium dependent and independent relaxation effects on blood vessels.

If one taking a NO booster such as arginine or cialias would that negate the vasodilatation effects of taurine?

[MuscleInk]

It should not. It's MOA on the endothelium is different.

[MuscleInk]

If one taking a NO booster such as arginine or cialias would that negate the vasodilatation effects of taurine?

Great paper by Worku Abebe and Mahmood Mozaffari in the 2011, Volume 1, issue 3 of the American Journal of Cardiovascular Disease, called The Role of Taurine in the Vasculature: An Overview of Experimental and Human Studies, if you can get a copy of it.

Another interesting publication in the journal, Hypertension in 2009 by Sebastiaan Wessling called
Tauring: Red Bull or Red Herring.

For a deeper dive into the effects of taurine, see Taurine 8, Volume 2: Nutrition and Metabolism, Neuroprotective Role and Role in Reproduction, Development, and Differentiation. This is a sub volume of Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, Volume 776.

I have several other papers on the benefits of taurine in glucose metabolism and lowering insulin sensitivity.

[Slacker78]

Great paper by Worku Abebe and Mahmood Mozaffari in the 2011, Volume 1, issue 3 of the American Journal of Cardiovascular Disease, called The Role of Taurine in the Vasculature: An Overview of Experimental and Human Studies, if you can get a copy of it.

Another interesting publication in the journal, Hypertension in 2009 by Sebastiaan Wessling called
Tauring: Red Bull or Red Herring.

For a deeper dive into the effects of taurine, see Taurine 8, Volume 2: Nutrition and Metabolism, Neuroprotective Role and Role in Reproduction, Development, and Differentiation. This is a sub volume of Advances in Experimental Medicine and Biology, Volume 776.

I have several other papers on the benefits of taurine in glucose metabolism and lowering insulin sensitivity.

That's great info, i didn't know. Thank you MuscleInk.

P.S: If you replied me in PM to my last message, be aware nothing was delivered me ( i could provide you my email address if this could help).

[MuscleInk]

That's great info, i didn't know. Thank you MuscleInk.

P.S: If you replied me in PM to my last message, be aware nothing was delivered me ( i could provide you my email address if this could help).

Glad you appreciate the references. I'm looking in to taurine toxicity now. I've seen a few posts where people are taking 6g of taurine a day and I think that may be extreme and unnecessary, but I suspect many doses are subjective decisions and not based on any objective metrics around safety and efficacy. I'm curious about the dose ranging effects.

Could have been a problem sending the PM from my phone. Once in awhile the app locks or crashes. Its rare, but it has happened. Glad the infection was resolved.

[Slacker78]

Glad you appreciate the references. I'm looking in to taurine toxicity now. I've seen a few posts where people are taking 6g of taurine a day and I think that may be extreme and unnecessary, but I suspect many doses are subjective decisions and not based on any objective metrics around safety and efficacy. I'm curious about the dose ranging effects.

Could have been a problem sending the PM from my phone. Once in awhile the app locks or crashes. Its rare, but it has happened. Glad the infection was resolved.

Saying the truth, i wrote you other stuff than infections....