Why not add Clomid to standard TRT protocol?

[gbrice75]

For guys like me who are on TRT but still looking to have children... what about adding Clomid? We know HCG is a must, but I've read about guys who cycled (unwittingly), were shutdown, added HCG without success in knocking up his girl, added Clomid and boom, pregnant!! Now this of course could be coincidence, but i'm just wondering, why not? Clomid is regularly used in PCT to help the 'bounce back'. Why not indefinitely or 'as needed' while on TRT?

Would love to hear positives, negatives, opinions, etc on this.

[jimmyinkedup]

when you are "shut down" and administering exogenous test - clomid will not do anything.
Its also not a prudent form of estrogen management as it doesnt eliminate estrogen but like nolva..blocks e receptors.

[Renholder]

Actually, there are no reasons you should not be using clomiphene instead of HCG provided it WORKS for you. Even Crisler said that.

The problem is that for most people clomiphene does not seem to be very effective and often it have negative effects on libido.

If you do a search on my history, I made a thread on this a little while back. You may find some information there.

[jimmyinkedup]

^^ i think he means adding clomid to an injectable trt protocol....not standalone ....

[gbrice75]

when you are "shut down" and administering exogenous test - clomid will not do anything.

As opposed to being shut down but not administering exogenous test - i.e. end of a cycle?

I'm interested in learning how clomid acts on the testes/HPTA vs. something like HCG which acts as/is an LH analogue.

Its also not a prudent form of estrogen management as it doesnt eliminate estrogen but like nolva..blocks e receptors.

I wouldn't be using it for estrogen management, i'd still be using an AI if necessary. Are you saying it would have a negative impact on estrogen due to being a SERM? i.e. AI eliminating excess estrogen, but then what's left (needed) winds up being blocked by the SERM?

[gbrice75]

^^ i think he means adding clomid to an injectable trt protocol....not standalone ....

Exactly.

Actually, there are no reasons you should not be using clomiphene instead of HCG provided it WORKS for you. Even Crisler said that.

The problem is that for most people clomiphene does not seem to be very effective and often it have negative effects on libido.

If you do a search on my history, I made a thread on this a little while back. You may find some information there.

Thanks for the input, i'll search for your thread.

[jimmyinkedup]

As opposed to being shut down but not administering exogenous test - i.e. end of a cycle?

Exactly. When there are high levels of test present you cant trick the body. The cloimd blocks the e receptor tricking body into thinking ther eis not enough estrogen .The primary way in males to generate estrogen is produuce more test. More test to aromatize to more estrogen. HOWEVER when there are already High lelevls of test present the body ill not resort to producing more tesst. In fact what it may do (and i read about this) is generate more aromatase ...and that would not be good now would it?

[gbrice75]

Exactly. When there are high levels of test present you cant trick the body. The cloimd blocks the e receptor tricking body into thinking ther eis not enough estrogen .The primary way in males to generate estrogen is produuce more test. More test to aromatize to more estrogen. HOWEVER when there are already High lelevls of test present the body ill not resort to producing more tesst. In fact what it may do (and i read about this) is generate more aromatase ...and that would not be good now would it?

Definitely not!

However, this...

HOWEVER when there are already High lelevls of test present the body ill not resort to producing more tesst

seems to conflict with why we use HCG, among other things, to maintain normal testicular function, one of those functions being to continue producing testicular testosterone, which is necessary for spermatogenesis to take place.

As you can see, my ultimate concern is maintaining sperm count and quality. I will be having sperm analysis tests done from time to time, and if I see a consistent decline in either count or quality, I will very likely discontinue TRT, at least until we have another baby. Consider it a long, small cycle I guess. /shrug

[lovbyts]

subscribing to this thread. I was just looking at a bunch of clomid yesterday thinking what should I do with this since I got it before I realized I didnt need to do PCT due to HRT WAY back when I first started TRT or shortly after.

[jimmyinkedup]

Definitely not!


seems to conflict with why we use HCG, among other things, to maintain normal testicular function, one of those functions being to continue producing testicular testosterone, which is necessary for spermatogenesis to take place.

As you can see, my ultimate concern is maintaining sperm count and quality. I will be having sperm analysis tests done from time to time, and if I see a consistent decline in either count or quality, I will very likely discontinue TRT, at least until we have another baby. Consider it a long, small cycle I guess. /shrug

HCG is GnRH ...when introduced there is no choice but for the htpa to function. It is the substance that causes production of lh and fsh and you are injecting it. When you use clomid no GnRh would ever be prodcued ..thus no lh and fsh ever produced (FSH plays role in spermatogenisis).....thus no benefit.

[gbrice75]

HCG is GnRH ...when introduced there is no choice but for the htpa to function. It is the substance that causes production of lh and fsh and you are injecting it. When you use clomid no GnRh would ever be prodcued ..thus no lh and fsh ever produced (FSH plays role in spermatogenisis).....thus no benefit.

Are you sure about this? As I understand it (and i'm as green as they come in this side of the 'business', so I can certainly be misunderstanding), HCG is an LH analog, therefore it mimics it but doesn't actually have any bearing on LH itself.

[jimmyinkedup]

Are you sure about this? As I understand it (and i'm as green as they come in this side of the 'business', so I can certainly be misunderstanding), HCG is an LH analog, therefore it mimics it but doesn't actually have any bearing on LH itself.

It is actually a GnRH agonist.
However there is a study where they replaced GnRh with HCG (it was in animals) but the hcg roup actually functioned BETTER than the GnRh group. this result leads me to believe that it certainly must function as a true Gnrh ...not just an anlog. Either that or it is so potent at triggering GnRh release that even with 0 GnRH endogenously present injecting it causes a higher level of function than GnRh on its own.Thus its bility to function even in a shutdown / high levls of test present scenario.

[gbrice75]

It is actually a GnRH agonist.
However there is a study where they replaced GnRh with HCG (it was in animals) but the hcg roup actually functioned BETTER than the GnRh group. this result leads me to believe that it certainly must function as a true Gnrh ...not just an anlog. Either that or it is so potent at triggering GnRh release that even with 0 GnRH endogenously present injecting it causes a higher level of function than GnRh on its own.Thus its bility to function even in a shutdown / high levls of test present scenario.

With that said, should I expect to see elevated (when I say elevated, I mean 'normal', i.e. elevated from low) LH levels while using HCG during TRT?

[jimmyinkedup]

You have to wait for more experienced trt er to answer that for certain. I would imagine the goal is to have them within the clinically normal range though yes. I am not 100% on that though.

[gbrice75]

^^ Thx. Bump then, for GD, Kel, Bass, HRT, et al.

[Renholder]

I think he means adding clomid to an injectable trt protocol....not standalone ....

That was what I was referring to myself.