Maintaining cycle gains long term

[--->>405<<---]

i know its been asked before but i want to ask it again right now!

reading the thread in the lounge: "ever just feel like, whats the point" has got me to thinking. i know "uh oh" and "thought i smelled something burning" right!

heres where im at: as yall know about 14months ago i was a fat ice cream eating hunk of tubby lard. well ive fixed that with the help of this forum and TRT. at this point i can still get a bit leaner but am starting to think about size. id like to have a good 10-15lbs more of real actual muscle. NOT water weight thats gonna disappear as soon as i quit running cycle after cycle.

my main question is what is the likelihood of me actually running a few cycles and then discontinuing them and maintaining my gains for 10years or so? now i realize this question does not have an exact answer but im more looking for what yalls experience has been??

i definitely think a test only cycle would be good for the first. at some point i def want to also run primobolan, tren, var, and maybe masteron.


im also curious as to length of time between a mass gaining cycle and a cutting cycle taking into account the fact that im on TRT and will need no PCT?

id also like to note it still will be awhile before i do cycle considering i want to drop bf% at least another 2% and maintain that leanness awhile to establish myself there as well as get thru the summer (which is 6months away). this is more of a brainstorming thread so i can gather some info and discuss.

im sure i have other questions but this should get it started..

[kelkel]

Well, simply put, you have to feed the gains you make to keep (some) of the gains you make. Committment to a lifestyle to which you have already demonstrated very well. I don't think you will have a problem.

Length of time between cycles should really be determined by your blood work and how quickly it normalizes. CBC's, lipids, etc.

Oh, and your lean enough btw.

kel

[--->>405<<---]

thx Kel! yeh im an extremist man! right now getting lean is my goal so naturally i want to be extremely lean. not just lean!

although on the bod pod analysis i did last monday anything 10%bf or under is categorized "Ultra Lean" .. the only next level is "risky-low body fat" at 5% or less. im on the way to do my first of 2 fasted cardio's right now!

[fit2bOld]

Your doing great 405. Like Kel said maintaining the commitment to nutrition and exercise is key, this you have demonstrated and is obvious that it will be long term. Any needed support as you move ahead you know we're here.

[Lunk1]

Kel and some others may disagree but I dont think its reasonable to believe that NOT very much of the gains made on cycle will stick around. Maybe a pound or 2 here and there but honestly thats why everyone that says "i'm just doing this one cycle" ends up realizing it's a lifestyle.

Now I can't speak of if this is the case while on TRT and if that makes a diff but as you know we had a bit of a discussion about blasting and cruising or slingshoting vs cycling on and off. I know I am getting increasingly frustrated with the whole cycle on and off (gain and lose) game.

Yes I am well aware that a portion...probably a huge portion of that is MY fault but I think many would express the same frustration

[Perseverance1]

I may be wrong....but I think you can go "on cycle" whenever you want because you're already on TRT.

I would suggest something like a 10 week "mass" cycle, with about 6 weeks off to maintain and then you could do a cutting cycle....

With that being said though, if it were me in your place I would try out tren and see how my body took to it, if you can run 400-600mg with manageable sides then you can have EVERY cycle be a mass/cutting cycle.

[--->>405<<---]

Your doing great 405. Like Kel said maintaining the commitment to nutrition and exercise is key, this you have demonstrated and is obvious that it will be long term. Any needed support as you move ahead you know we're here.

thx fit! i hope to be taking yall up on that.

Kel and some others may disagree but I dont think its reasonable to believe that NOT very much of the gains made on cycle will stick around. Maybe a pound or 2 here and there but honestly thats why everyone that says "i'm just doing this one cycle" ends up realizing it's a lifestyle.

Now I can't speak of if this is the case while on TRT and if that makes a diff but as you know we had a bit of a discussion about blasting and cruising or slingshoting vs cycling on and off. I know I am getting increasingly frustrated with the whole cycle on and off (gain and lose) game.

Yes I am well aware that a portion...probably a huge portion of that is MY fault but I think many would express the same frustration

ok Job im a bit confused here. are u saying u think the idea of maintaining gains long term is NOT likely? which is why one or 2 cycles turns into 5 or 10??

I may be wrong....but I think you can go "on cycle" whenever you want because you're already on TRT.

I would suggest something like a 10 week "mass" cycle, with about 6 weeks off to maintain and then you could do a cutting cycle....

With that being said though, if it were me in your place I would try out tren and see how my body took to it, if you can run 400-600mg with manageable sides then you can have EVERY cycle be a mass/cutting cycle.

thx pers yeh im real curious about tren! from what ive seen on here guys can actually make gains and drop bf. it being a 19-nor im a bit hesitant. i will prob venture down the primobolan depot road before considering tren TBH..

[Lunk1]

Thats exactly what I am saying!

Again...with TRT that MAY be completely different. Cycling is a yo yo....you either keep going up and down or you change your game plan! I believe my game plan is changing!

[--->>405<<---]

Thats exactly what I am saying!

Again...with TRT that MAY be completely different. Cycling is a yo yo....you either keep going up and down or you change your game plan! I believe my game plan is changing!

ok thats what i wanted to know! i guess now i have to figure out if gains can be maintained with TRT or not. if they cant then whats the point? id like to cycle here and there to pick up some extra muscle but if im just gonna lose it after the cycles are over i dont see a point in risking my health.

and one more question popped into my head: how long do u think u can wait between cycles before u start to see a decline in LBM regardless of diet due solely to lack of AAS cycling?

[Lunk1]

ok thats what i wanted to know! i guess now i have to figure out if gains can be maintained with TRT or not. if they cant then whats the point? id like to cycle here and there to pick up some extra muscle but if im just gonna lose it after the cycles are over i dont see a point in risking my health.

and one more question popped into my head: how long do u think u can wait between cycles before u start to see a decline in LBM regardless of diet due solely to lack of AAS cycling?

Well no doubt that the diet and routine after ccyle will help maintain the gains longer so I would say that it is dependent...I still say they slip away eventually no matter but you can def. hold them for a longer period of time with proper maintenance.

I believe you will start to see a decline, to a degree, within a cpl of weeks!

[Perseverance1]

ok thats what i wanted to know! i guess now i have to figure out if gains can be maintained with TRT or not. if they cant then whats the point? id like to cycle here and there to pick up some extra muscle but if im just gonna lose it after the cycles are over i dont see a point in risking my health.

and one more question popped into my head: how long do u think u can wait between cycles before u start to see a decline in LBM regardless of diet due solely to lack of AAS cycling?

I would think that you could keep them indefinitely assuming you have the training and diet for your size down as long as you aren't beyond your genetic max.

[--->>405<<---]

Well no doubt that the diet and routine after ccyle will help maintain the gains longer so I would say that it is dependent...I still say they slip away eventually no matter but you can def. hold them for a longer period of time with proper maintenance.

I believe you will start to see a decline, to a degree, within a cpl of weeks!

good night! LOL..

I would think that you could keep them indefinitely assuming you have the training and diet for your size down as long as you aren't beyond your genetic max.

this is where i figured this would go which is why i specified in the OP i was looking for experience. i dont want hypothetical idealism.

maybe i should word this a different way. pers and JOB how much LBM would u say u had before u started taking steroids?

how much LBM do u have now?

what has been the average duration of breaks in between cycles from then to now?

how long have u been cycling?

and others please jump in here!!

[Lunk1]

Not sure here is the place for my answer but in the spirit of hoping some learn from mistakes instead of following them.

I started about 3 years ago at 6' 280 most likely in the low 30% area

5 cycles later (keep in mind it has been trial and error and learning on the run)

Still 6' but a leaner 235ish at around 18-20%

I have no access to bodpods so I can only say in the mirror that I have lost fat (went from 40 ALMOST 42 down to a 36 again) but I would guess that each cycle I add 10-15 lbs of muscle and then lose most of it.

Now...reality is my diet (obviously) is no where even close to the discipline that you have and I spend alot more time on the lake and on a bicycle during the summer than I do in the gym but.....

Duration of cycle breaks has been around 3-4 months.

[kelkel]

Kel and some others may disagree but I dont think its reasonable to believe that NOT very much of the gains made on cycle will stick around. Maybe a pound or 2 here and there but honestly thats why everyone that says "i'm just doing this one cycle" ends up realizing it's a lifestyle.

Now I can't speak of if this is the case while on TRT and if that makes a diff but as you know we had a bit of a discussion about blasting and cruising or slingshoting vs cycling on and off. I know I am getting increasingly frustrated with the whole cycle on and off (gain and lose) game.

Yes I am well aware that a portion...probably a huge portion of that is MY fault but I think many would express the same frustration

I don't disagree at all. But I do think with 405 now being on TRT it will make things a bit easier....

[Lunk1]

I don't disagree at all. But I do think with 405 now being on TRT it will make things a bit easier....

I agree Kel...I think TRT changes everything when it comes to yo yoing? What is your opinion for gains maintained cycling for non TRT guys??

[kelkel]

Not sure yet but will let you know. But it just makes sense as the TRT'er goes back to a high normal T level. There is no bottoming out. But as we both stated, most fail due to nutrition...

[anahny]

For me personally im what they call a gym freak. Workout 7 days a week. In fact the only time I would miss a day is if I'm extremely tired and have things to do which is rare btw. Not everyone can go to the gym and focus on diet like a they should due to things in people's lives, family, work etc. So it's really gonna ve an individual thing when it comes to long term gains. They everyone said it's the commitment and dedicated and the love you have for this awesome sport.

[Lunk1]

Not sure yet but will let you know. But it just makes sense as the TRT'er goes back to a high normal T level. There is no bottoming out. But as we both stated, most fail due to nutrition...

Hypotheticly one would have to never waver from the diet required to keep said gains and never take time off from the gym. This seems like an awfully big commitment for any normal person.

I think the reality is MOST everyone stumbles and then they cycle to get back, then they stumble and repeat....such is a cycle in life as well!

To expect 110% commitment from a human being with no room for fault is simply an unrealistic expectation.

[--->>405<<---]

lunk sorry pal i didnt intend to put u on the spot! just trying to figure out if im wasting my time cunning cycle and unnecessarily risking my health for gains that i will NOT be able to maintain after im done..

[Papiriqui]

I believe you can maintain most of what you gain in a cycle as long as nutrition is well kept, which we know 405 doesnt have a problem with. At the end whether you gain the weight by cycling or dieting you have to eat at maintenance to maintain body weight and workout to retain muscle mass and definition, we all know this. So i think as long as you eat at maintenance after the cycle you should not lose it except those lbs that are normally water retention and stuff like that which everyone loses regardless but the true lean mass you dont lose it as long as proper nutrition is involved.

I cannot speak from experience on this except for the theoretical part and people i know which have done this.

[Lunk1]

lunk sorry pal i didnt intend to put u on the spot! just trying to figure out if im wasting my time cunning cycle and unnecessarily risking my health for gains that i will NOT be able to maintain after im done..

It's ok...I'm not saying I have done everything the right way in my life..I think we both can relate. That's why we try to stop others from replicating our mistakes.

I'm still proud of my accomplishment thus far...just wish that next level came as easy! Lost 40-45 and at least 10% BF no prob. Now I want to lose half of that and it's 10 X as hard! Ugggg....1 fasted cardio session in this am already

[Papiriqui]

lunk sorry pal i didnt intend to put u on the spot! just trying to figure out if im wasting my time cunning cycle and unnecessarily risking my health for gains that i will NOT be able to maintain after im done..

I havent research much on tren because the more i read the more is recommended for experienced AAS users as it has many side effects, very strong on the body, even though you are on TRT this will be your first cycle. I would stay away from it for now, use something else, perhaps anavar which will help you cut and gain come good clean muscle and retain most of it, perhaps some winny i dont know, just spit balling here but IMHO i would stay away from tren as a first cycle. Its a fantastic thing, ive seen people here at the gym on it knowing they are not doing proper nutrition and yet i see amazing results so with you i cant imagine but again i go back to the really hard sides!!!!

Whatever you do i know it will be well thought and properly research i have no doubts, just giving you my .02 cents

[warmouth]

I can almost guarantee you 405, that if you put on the weight, YOU would maintain it. You just know how to change up the diet to do whatever you want. Like Rembrandt with a carb. I would say that gains made, could be maintained if the right combination of compounds and diet were in order. I think the slower acting compounds like, anavar, primo, masteron, along with TRT would yeild the easiest to maintain result based on the fact of them being slow, slow gains. I am not one to believe that most of the gains can be kept, but if it is done slowly, and over time, I think alot can be maintained since you are right back on the TRT and a dialed in diet. Just my opinion. I havet touched anything but my TRT since July, I think, and I havent trained in over a month or maintained my diet. I am eating like a horse, but I havent lost a tremendous amount. I went from 155-60 to max weight of 186 over a 3 month period, and I am down to 175 now. I think you just have to compensate for the extra weight you have to feed.

[--->>405<<---]

I believe you can maintain most of what you gain in a cycle as long as nutrition is well kept, which we know 405 doesnt have a problem with. At the end whether you gain the weight by cycling or dieting you have to eat at maintenance to maintain body weight and workout to retain muscle mass and definition, we all know this. So i think as long as you eat at maintenance after the cycle you should not lose it except those lbs that are normally water retention and stuff like that which everyone loses regardless but the true lean mass you dont lose it as long as proper nutrition is involved.

I cannot speak from experience on this except for the theoretical part and people i know which have done this.

to a point this makes sense pap. the only drawback being the hormonal levels utilized to achieve the gains will be gone. typically my free test on TRT stays around 35(8.7-25.6) so theres no problem there but they definitely would not rival hormonal levels i would possess on 500mg test. this is where i would think the problem could come into play. this is also why i have and am considering primobolan depot. as well as the fact that the sides on it are negligible. i could maybe bump my test from 120mg to 240mg and run primo at 600-800mg for 16 weeks or somethin like that..

the primary concern i would have is anxiety, of which i have to deal with a fair amount of the time.

It's ok...I'm not saying I have done everything the right way in my life..I think we both can relate. That's why we try to stop others from replicating our mistakes.

I'm still proud of my accomplishment thus far...just wish that next level came as easy! Lost 40-45 and at least 10% BF no prob. Now I want to lose half of that and it's 10 X as hard! Ugggg....1 fasted cardio session in this am already

hey pal everyone of us has made dumb decisions in life! what separates people who improve over time is their ability to recognize bad behavior and modify it to proper behavior.

the goals u want right now (leaner physique) are very achievable with or without AAS. they simply require discipline, knowledge, dedication, and repetition over an extended period of time. fortunately i have been thru most hurdles u would come across with regards to dietary and workout changes at difft levels of body composition so i can help u there.

[Perseverance1]

good night! LOL..



this is where i figured this would go which is why i specified in the OP i was looking for experience. i dont want hypothetical idealism.

maybe i should word this a different way. pers and JOB how much LBM would u say u had before u started taking steroids?

how much LBM do u have now?

what has been the average duration of breaks in between cycles from then to now?

how long have u been cycling?

and others please jump in here!!

Since I started this cycle I've gained about 25 pounds...20 of which I would say is muscle. Not sure how much I will keep as im doing my first cycle now I'll make sure to let you know how it all goes when I've finished PCT.

[--->>405<<---]

I havent research much on tren because the more i read the more is recommended for experienced AAS users as it has many side effects, very strong on the body, even though you are on TRT this will be your first cycle. I would stay away from it for now, use something else, perhaps anavar which will help you cut and gain come good clean muscle and retain most of it, perhaps some winny i dont know, just spit balling here but IMHO i would stay away from tren as a first cycle. Its a fantastic thing, ive seen people here at the gym on it knowing they are not doing proper nutrition and yet i see amazing results so with you i cant imagine but again i go back to the really hard sides!!!!

Whatever you do i know it will be well thought and properly research i have no doubts, just giving you my .02 cents

yeh pap im not ready for tren and dont know if i ever will be. the idea of it sounds good but i am a bit hesitant about taking something designed for cattle! MOOOOOOOOOO.. LOL

I can almost guarantee you 405, that if you put on the weight, YOU would maintain it. You just know how to change up the diet to do whatever you want. Like Rembrandt with a carb. I would say that gains made, could be maintained if the right combination of compounds and diet were in order. I think the slower acting compounds like, anavar, primo, masteron, along with TRT would yeild the easiest to maintain result based on the fact of them being slow, slow gains. I am not one to believe that most of the gains can be kept, but if it is done slowly, and over time, I think alot can be maintained since you are right back on the TRT and a dialed in diet. Just my opinion. I havet touched anything but my TRT since July, I think, and I havent trained in over a month or maintained my diet. I am eating like a horse, but I havent lost a tremendous amount. I went from 155-60 to max weight of 186 over a 3 month period, and I am down to 175 now. I think you just have to compensate for the extra weight you have to feed.

warmouth thx for the compliment man! and the slower acting compounds (esp primo) is something i am very likely to consider. i am really attracted to the idea of a cutting cycle as well. i am betting the look i want would be a lot more achievable of i were running something like primo, var, mast, winstrol, right now.

[Far from massive]

I think its a whole lot easier to maintain gains from blasts while on TRT than it is to maintain gains cycling.

While on TRT although you still have to return to a base test level, you do not have to go through a PCT and a period thereafter where the body is trying to re-establish its base Test levels. Because of this difference although you will not be able to keep all of your gains you should be able to keep a large amount of them compared to those who truly cycle.

I am sure you (405) realize this but for some of the other newer members I feel this is a concept they may not fully understand.

[Capebuffalo]

On TRT I would cycle my ass off. With you dedication and new love of nutrition and the trt dosage. I think YOU would keep +70% of your gains. Run a simple Test E 12 week cycle. You can bulk or cut depending on your diet. You have proven not to be an average JOE. Talk to some more of the TRT HRT guys.

Above. I took to long to type. Agree

[largerthannormal]

I agree with everyone above, i think most of it is change in lifestyle to maintain what new fiber you created, as long as hormone levels are good, and you being on trt you should have a great outcome.

I have been in the "yo yo effect " for years up 10 down 10 backn n forth ( just like lunk said after so many mistakes your game plan needs to change) im def in that process,

405 I go on bulkers even when im a higher bf than you (im about 12)..( again dont listen to the yo yo) but u seem pretty cut already, If it were me id just go from where your at, but thats me.

still man you made some awesome changes so far bro!! good luck

[--->>405<<---]

On TRT I would cycle my ass off. With you dedication and new love of nutrition and the trt dosage. I think YOU would keep +70% of your gains. Run a simple Test E 12 week cycle. You can bulk or cut depending on your diet. You have proven not to be an average JOE. Talk to some more of the TRT HRT guys.

Above. I took to long to type. Agree

thx cape. i would be very happy with keeping that much! and would consider it worth it for sure..

[Lunk1]

thx cape. i would be very happy with keeping that much! and would consider it worth it for sure..

At the end of the day...like everything else AAS related, there are sooo many variables. Diet, routine, cycle, trt, GENETICS,.....

Run your cycle and keep track in your normal anal fashion...see how it goes for you. I think you will have a good idea of gains kept or lost within a few months. Give it a go and see how it works for 405, not how it works for the rest of us meatheads!

[--->>405<<---]

^^ yeh i suppose that is the thing to do! maybe one of these days ill quit talking about it and actually do it! just wanna make sure i have everything strait first.

test/primo sounds pretty good to me... what would be nice is to run a bulking cycle and gain about 15-20lbs and then immediately run a cutting cycle and get to 8% or less maintaining just about all my gains and losing only fat!

(then i woke up!)

[Lunk1]

You know cutting and maintaining 100% muscle is not easily done....

Thats that yo yo...guys bulk and then cut and it gets old. The 20 pound muscle gained and then losing all but 3-5 during a cut.

I am sold on lean bulking straight through as a much more effective LIFESTYLE

[Capebuffalo]

^^ yeh i suppose that is the thing to do! maybe one of these days ill quit talking about it and actually do it! just wanna make sure i have everything strait first.

test/primo sounds pretty good to me... what would be nice is to run a bulking cycle and gain about 15-20lbs and then immediately run a cutting cycle and get to 8% or less maintaining just about all my gains and losing only fat!

(then i woke up!)

Glad you woke up. LOL That wouldn't happen

[--->>405<<---]

You know cutting and maintaining 100% muscle is not easily done....

Thats that yo yo...guys bulk and then cut and it gets old. The 20 pound muscle gained and then losing all but 3-5 during a cut.

I am sold on lean bulking straight through as a much more effective LIFESTYLE

im with u there buddy and currently (well here before too too long) will be working on just that! lean bulking. using the current protocol im on just manipulating the factors to suit gains vs cuts... am curious to see how u do but urs will be a little harder to gauge as i bet u dont follow it exactly to a tee..

[--->>405<<---]

Glad you woke up. LOL That wouldn't happen

a guy can dream cant he!

[kelkel]

Only thing that worries me is your E2 control. I'd hate to see that yo-yo effect return.

[--->>405<<---]

Only thing that worries me is your E2 control. I'd hate to see that yo-yo effect return.

dad gummit kel! u parade rainer! now if i run test primo and keep test at say 200mg and primo at 600-800mg then theoretically i could shoot test subq. primo does not convert to E2 so there would be no problem there.. ??

[Bio-Active]

dad gummit kel! u parade rainer! now if i run test primo and keep test at say 200mg and primo at 600-800mg then theoretically i could shoot test subq. primo does not convert to E2 so there would be no problem there.. ??

If you stay committed to your diet and training like most of us do. I think it is very realistic to maintain most of your gains. Will you keep all of them probably not but will you keep 85%. I think it is realistic with proper nutrition and training. Nutrition is key here. Honestly the hardest thing to do when you are cruising is staying super super lean. Staying at around 10 % while cruising I think is realistic.

[--->>405<<---]

^^ i can do 10% already there. Running trt 120mg per week goin for 8%