Blood work this weekend shows my test at 2100 ng/dL

[vapin]

I've been on a cycle for 13 weeks, took my last shot on 12/10, took the blood test on 12/15. Not planning on taking another one at all as my plans were to end anyway, and I went to get some blood work done to see where I was at.

My results for the hormone panel came back at:

Testosterone,  Serum 
Testosterone,  Serum	2110	High	ng/dL	348-1197	01
Results  confirmed  on 
dilution. 
Luteinizing  Hormone(LH),  S 
LH	0.1	Low	mIU/mL	1.7-8.6	01
FSH,  Serum
FSH	<0.2	Low	mIU/mL	1.5-12.4	01
Estradiol
Estradiol	19.9	pg/mL	7.6-42.6	01

I'm thinking this has to be a mistake, I don't know why it would be that high, my protocol was very low dose.

I was doing:

Test Cypionate 200mg once a week
HCG 600IU and 1mg Arimedex every 4 days

It's practically a TRT dose and I was not expecting that number at all, especially since after 4 weeks I tested and was at 549 ng/dL. The only thing on top of this was I took a 450mg Saw Palmetto every other day for about 3 weeks, and I took one Tropinol almost every day (to prevent fully shutting down). I know my LH and FSH is on the ground, and I'm thinking clomid will bring that back, but the testosterone is what's alarming to me. So something doesn't make sense to me here and wanted to see if anyone has any input.

[Bio-Active]

I've been on a cycle for 13 weeks, took my last shot on 12/10, took the blood test on 12/15. Not planning on taking another one at all as my plans were to end anyway, and I went to get some blood work done to see where I was at.

My results for the hormone panel came back at:

Testosterone,  Serum 
Testosterone,  Serum	2110	High	ng/dL	348-1197	01
Results  confirmed  on 
dilution. 
Luteinizing  Hormone(LH),  S 
LH	0.1	Low	mIU/mL	1.7-8.6	01
FSH,  Serum
FSH	<0.2	Low	mIU/mL	1.5-12.4	01
Estradiol
Estradiol	19.9	pg/mL	7.6-42.6	01

I'm thinking this has to be a mistake, I don't know why it would be that high, my protocol was very low dose.

I was doing:

Test Cypionate 200mg once a week
HCG 600IU and 1mg Arimedex every 4 days

It's practically a TRT dose and I was not expecting that number at all, especially since after 4 weeks I tested and was at 549 ng/dL. The only thing on top of this was I took a 450mg Saw Palmetto every other day for about 3 weeks, and I took one Tropinol almost every day (to prevent fully shutting down). I know my LH and FSH is on the ground, and I'm thinking clomid will bring that back, but the testosterone is what's alarming to me. So something doesn't make sense to me here and wanted to see if anyone has any input.

You had labs done 3 days from your last injection and you are wondering why your numbers are high? how much test were you running during the cycle?

[fit2bOld]

Not unusual will take up to 8 weeks to stabilize. Enjoy it while it's still up.

[anahny]

Well you just finished a cycle. Like fit2bOld said it's gonna take up to 8 weeks to stabilize. Then get more blood work done and see where at.

[Bio-Active]

Everyone metabolizes different. My levels drop after 14 days to almost nothing

[anahny]

Everyone metabolizes different. My levels drop after 14 days to almost nothing

Wow that's really fast. My levels don't drop until after 6 weeks, and it's never low. Usually takes a little over 2 months to be completely stable.

[Bio-Active]

I had labs run 6 days from last stab running 400 ew pharm grade cyp and levels were 2200 and ran labs at day 13 from last stab and my levels came back at 140.

[RoadToHuge]

Six weeks out from a good trene teste and var cycle and I hit 217. Only 100 off of where I am at clean. I have low test issues to begin with, thats how I got into aas...

[tdoe11]

WOW your test level is high at 200mg a week. Super test!

[MuscleInk]

Had BW yesterday. Test is > 3000. Oops.

[vapin]

You had labs done 3 days from your last injection and you are wondering why your numbers are high? how much test were you running during the cycle?

I took the blood test 5 days after injection so I figured it wouldn't be too much of a factor but I guess I was wrong. I was just doing 200mg of test-c a week for 13 weeks.

I just still think it's a little crazy for my levels to be that high at my dose since it seems pretty small compared to what most people I see take.

[Bio-Active]

Had BW yesterday. Test is > 3000. Oops.

What dose(s) were you running?

[Turkish Juicer]

Test Cypionate 200mg once a week
HCG 600IU and 1mg Arimedex every 4 days

I don't mean to distract you or anyone else from focusing on the actual thread here but you should seriously review and fix your OCT protocols altogether.

Try HCG 250-500iu E3D and Arimidex 0.25mg EOD if you run the same cycle again.

[fit2bOld]

Had BW yesterday. Test is > 3000. Oops.

Someone must have spiked the punch.

[vapin]

I don't mean to distract you or anyone else from focusing on the actual thread here but you should seriously review and fix your OCT protocols altogether.

Try HCG 250-500iu E3D and Arimidex 0.25mg EOD if you run the same cycle again.

Not that I'm challenging you but just so I can get a better understanding, what would be the advantage of running the cycle that way?

Also what would you recommend for PCT? I've taken the HCG/Arimedex twice (4 days apart like my protocol) since I last took the Test-C 11 days ago. I was thinking about doing clomid for a month, 50mg/day for the first week, and 25mg/day after the first week. Wanted to hear some thoughts on whether that's ok, or if there is something better I should be doing. I just want everything back to normal, and producing naturally.

[Turkish Juicer]

Not that I'm challenging you but just so I can get a better understanding, what would be the advantage of running the cycle that way?

Also what would you recommend for PCT? I've taken the HCG/Arimedex twice (4 days apart like my protocol) since I last took the Test-C 11 days ago. I was thinking about doing clomid for a month, 50mg/day for the first week, and 25mg/day after the first week. Wanted to hear some thoughts on whether that's ok, or if there is something better I should be doing. I just want everything back to normal, and producing naturally.

Are you familiar with terms such as ''biological life'' and/or ''biological half-life'' of a compound? If not, start your research by utilizing Google search engine, it will take only minutes of your time and you should have a better understanding of these pharmaceutical terms probably better than I can explain here and now.

The terminal elimination half-life of Arimidex is officially reported to be 46.8 hours, which is roughly 2 days.

The understanding here should be that you do NOT want to follow a protocol with a given compound where the biological half-life is already discontinued, since that means unstable levels in blood, which also unfortunately means you are messing with your own body by following an incorrect protocol where your AI works for 2 days in terms of suppressing excessive estrogen levels in the mean time; but then for the following 2 days you are actually letting your metabolism build up excessive estrogen levels before you take your AI again, which is obviously all wrong...

You'll read about guys who take Aromasin, which has a half-life of 27 hours EOD or E3D instead of taking it ED as they should, and then they complain about estrogen related sides while on Aromasin, which is one of the most advanced, reliable and sought-after AIs in the market (especially if it is pharm grade). They start questioning the compound itself whether it is bunk or under-dosed or that ''their bodies didn't respond well to it'' instead of questioning their flawed intake protocol, for the very same reasons I have tried to explain above.

Same goes for HCG, HGH, or any AAS for that matter. If you are going to jump on HGH, for instance, you have to know that it takes ED injections with this compound. Let's make examples from a few AAS. Take Test E for an example; biological half-life is 4-6 days depending on individual's metabolic rate; meaning that one has to inject no less frequently than 4-5 days in order to be able to maintain stable blood levels, which is the ONLY WAY to get the most out of the given compound. Take Test Prop: biological life 3 days, half life roughly 36 hours. What would you do if you were to run a Test Prop cycle then? You would have to inject either ED or EOD, and PCT would start no later than 3 days after the last injection. I think you should have a pretty clear understanding of the logic behind these advices now? Needles to say, this is real science, as opposed to bro-science.

If a user is going to do this right all the way through, then the user MUST know all about the biological life and half-life of every and each compound he is currently administering or about to administer...

As for PCT, other than the fact that Nolvadex & Clomid deliver the best results in terms of restarting & allowing your endocrine system to normalize HTPA when USED TOGETHER, doses and lenght will depend on cycle lenght, compounds employed for the cycle, weekly doses, individual's metabolic responses to these compounds and so forth, as these are not stone written elements...

[vapin]

Are you familiar with terms such as ''biological life'' and/or ''biological half-life'' of a compound? If not, start your research by utilizing Google search engine, it will take only minutes of your time and you should have a better understanding of these pharmaceutical terms probably better than I can explain here and now.

The terminal elimination half-life of Arimidex is officially reported to be 46.8 hours, which is roughly 2 days.

The understanding here should be that you do NOT want to follow a protocol with a given compound where the biological half-life is already discontinued, since that means unstable levels in blood, which also unfortunately means you are messing with your own body by following an incorrect protocol where your AI works for 2 days in terms of suppressing excessive estrogen levels in the mean time; but then for the following 2 days you are actually letting your metabolism build up excessive estrogen levels before you take your AI again, which is obviously all wrong...

You'll read about guys who take Aromasin, which has a half-life of 27 hours EOD or E3D instead of taking it ED as they should, and then they complain about estrogen related sides while on Aromasin, which is one of the most advanced, reliable and sought-after AIs in the market (especially if it is pharm grade). They start questioning the compound itself whether it is bunk or under-dosed or that ''their bodies didn't respond well to it'' instead of questioning their flawed intake protocol, for the very same reasons I have tried to explain above.

Same goes for HCG, HGH, or any AAS for that matter. If you are going to jump on HGH, for instance, you have to know that it takes ED injections with this compound. Let's make examples from a few AAS. Take Test E for an example; biological half-life is 4-6 days depending on individual's metabolic rate; meaning that one has to inject no less frequently than 4-5 days in order to be able to maintain stable blood levels, which is the ONLY WAY to get the most out of the given compound. Take Test Prop: biological life 3 days, half life roughly 36 hours. What would you do if you were to run a Test Prop cycle then? You would have to inject either ED or EOD, and PCT would start no later than 3 days after the last injection. I think you should have a pretty clear understanding of the logic behind these advices now? Needles to say, this is real science, as opposed to bro-science.

If a user is going to do this right all the way through, then the user MUST know all about the biological life and half-life of every and each compound he is currently administering or about to administer...

As for PCT, other than the fact that Nolvadex & Clomid deliver the best results in terms of restarting & allowing your endocrine system to normalize HTPA when USED TOGETHER, doses and lenght will depend on cycle lenght, compounds employed for the cycle, weekly doses, individual's metabolic responses to these compounds and so forth, as these are not stone written elements...

Yep I understand what your saying, looked up the definitions you mentioned and it makes sense. Unfortunately, I now know this too late, but I'm glad I know regardless. I agree people should know more about the half-life of what they're taking. The only thing I can focus on now is correcting myself and bring everything back to normal and have things working naturally. I did the protocol I mentioned in the first post for 13 weeks, and with that I'm thinking of going with clomid for a month.

I'm curious though as to why you mention to take Nolva and Clomid at the same time when they are relatively similar from what I understand?

[gixxerboy1]

Everyone respobds different and for most 200mg isnt trt

[RoadToHuge]

Nolva work on the estrogen, clomid works on bringing the boys back online...

[AD]

Nolva work on the estrogen, clomid works on bringing the boys back online...

somehow, that statement doesn't sound quite right...

[gixxerboy1]

Nolva work on the estrogen, clomid works on bringing the boys back online...

nolva will not lower his estrogen

[Turkish Juicer]

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

QUESTION: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

ANSWER: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.

Dr. Michael Scally

About Dr. Michael Scally

Dr. Scally’s education includes a double degree major in Chemistry (1975) and Life Sciences (1975) from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T.) Cambridge, MA. Following, from 1975-1980, in the M.I.T. Division of Brain Sciences & Neuroendocrinology Dr. Scally researched and published investigations on neurotransmitter relationships.1 Dr. Scally's research included involvement and participation in the earliest studies detailing the role of tryptophan, serotonin, and depression. During this time, he entered the prestigious Health Sciences & Technology Program, a collaboration of M.I.T. and Harvard Medical School. In June 1980, Dr. Scally was awarded by Harvard Medical School a Doctorate of Medicine, M.D. Continuing his education, Dr. Scally trained at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Southwestern Medical School. Scally completed the first year of postgraduate medical residency in general surgery followed by postgraduate medical residency in anesthesiology.

Consultations. Contact Dr. Scally at mscally@alum.mit.edu or mscally@hptaxis.com. Dr. Scally has personally cared for thousands of individuals using AAS, particularly for anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism.