Please help with my diet/cardio program

[musclestack]

So, I've posted a couple other threads in this forum and the AAS forum. As some of you may know, about 4-5 weeks into my cutting phase, I started to lose a lot of size/strength. I've taken into consideration the suggestions that some of you offered as far as diet goes, as well as running Test to help hold on to my gains while I'm cutting. After thinking it over, I will not be running AAS; I want to stay natural, even if it means taking longer to reach my goal of single digit body fat.

Here is my plan:

First, I'm going to bulk back up to 195lbs over the next 3-4 weeks in order to get my LBM and strength back to where it was before I started cutting (I am a hard-gainer, but I also have very good 'muscle memory', so I am certain I will get back to where I was in 4 weeks or less). That's the easy part. Now for the hard part: I really need to make sure my diet is 100% in check this time around while cutting so I don't lose any (or very little) muscle mass. Losing a bit may be inevitable, but the rate at which I've been losing it the past few weeks is ridiculous. Something definitely wasn't right. Here is a link to my 'old' cutting diet if you'd like to take a look: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...utting-Plateau

As you can see, my protein was 283g, carbs just under 200g, and fats at 70g. I was thinking about changing this up to a 40/40/20 split. Protein at 250g, carbs at 250g, and fat around 50-55g. Would you guys agree with this? I'm thinking that I was just eating a lot of 'unnecessary protein' that my body didn't need and was not efficiently converting to energy. Meanwhile my carbs were on the low side. Thoughts? Also, would you recommend a carb-cycling diet for someone like me (ectomorph)? And if so, could someone please point me in the right direction as to how to construct one considering my goals? Link perhaps?

And last but not least, I've been doing cardio 5-6 days per week, mostly consisting of 45 minutes on the treadmill at 6mph (until I had knee problems, but that's another thread lol). I've had others in the gym tell me that there's no need to RUN at that speed for so long. They either do a fast-paced walk on the treadmill or use the stationary bike for about 45 minutes. Turns out these guys see better results than I do as far as getting lean and keeping their LBM. Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing a video of a professional body-builder that actually runs (not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never seen it). Any thoughts on my cardio regime?Stats
28 years old
5'9"
184lbs.
~14%bf
GOAL: single digit body fat while maintaining as much LBM as possible.


All suggestions are welcome, specifically referring to the text in bold. Really need you guys' help on this.

Thanks all!
MS

[musclestack]

P.S. I realize that the link I posted was about me hitting a plateau in the first couple of weeks in my diet, however, everything changed in the past few weeks. Now, I'm losing size in the wrong places!

[Provita]

Hey man, I agree with the 40/40/20 carb/Protein/fat split. With the amount of cardio you are doing maybe even 45/35/20 if you would like.

Gaining 12lb in 4 weeks for an ectomorph?? If you do that, its ether a miracle or i think you are more endomorph than you think.

Cardio training: #1 you can look into fasted cardio in AM and lifting PM. #2 Read into HIIT (High intensity interval training) and its benefits such ad EPOC. You can google HIIT or HIIT cardio programs. There are quite a lot on that topic on the interweb. :-) IMO it fits better with your goals than doing 10miles every day at a steady pace.

Knee injury: while you are strengthening your knee again, you can look into other forms of cardio: Bicycle, swimming, rowing, etc. they are much easier on the knees.

[musclestack]

Hey man, I agree with the 40/40/20 carb/Protein/fat split. With the amount of cardio you are doing maybe even 45/35/20 if you would like.

Think I'm going to try out the 40/40/20 split. If all else fails, I may add a bit more carbs. Would like to keep my protein at about 1.5g per pound of LBM. Do you think that the low(ish) amount of carbs and high protein on my last diet may have been a factor in losing LBM?

Gaining 12lb in 4 weeks for an ectomorph?? If you do that, its ether a miracle or i think you are more endomorph than you think.

Haha! Well, you have to understand that when I bulk, I always carry about 7 pounds of water weight. So, right there, I'm remaining with about 5 pounds to go. I would imagine that 50% of that was fat and the other 50% muscle. So, basically, I just need to get back 2-3 pounds of muscle. Like I said, I have very good "muscle memory" as I like to call it. I got very ill about 10 months ago and dropped all the way down to 170 pounds, but after I was healthy again, it took me less than 2 months to get back up to 195. It's very easy for me to hit the 195lb mark, but maintaining it and adding more is quite a mission lol!

Cardio training: #1 you can look into fasted cardio in AM and lifting PM. #2 Read into HIIT (High intensity interval training) and its benefits such ad EPOC. You can google HIIT or HIIT cardio programs. There are quite a lot on that topic on the interweb. :-) IMO it fits better with your goals than doing 10miles every day at a steady pace.

Yea, I've read into HIIT cardio and understand how EPOC works. I'm curious, how do you feel that this would be a better option "for my goals"? Do you think that I would be less likely to lose LBM with HIIT as opposed to low-moderate intensity at a steady pace? And if so, why? I was always under the impression that lower intensity while maintaining a constant not-too-high heart rate would be better for this.

Knee injury: while you are strengthening your knee again, you can look into other forms of cardio: Bicycle, swimming, rowing, etc. they are much easier on the knees.

Thanks for the reply, man! Can you please address the bold?

[Provita]

"Think I'm going to try out the 40/40/20 split. If all else fails, I may add a bit more carbs. Would like to keep my protein at about 1.5g per pound of LBM. Do you think that the low(ish) amount of carbs and high protein on my last diet may have been a factor in losing LBM?"

A: It could have been yes. There could be a whole host of other factors as well. One's body is designed to run on carbs and in certain conditions, if your body needs energy and can't get it from carbs (glucose) it will turn to the muscle itself for energy. So yes, it is likely to have played a part.

Haha! Well, you have to understand that when I bulk, I always carry about 7 pounds of water weight. So, right there, I'm remaining with about 5 pounds to go. I would imagine that 50% of that was fat and the other 50% muscle. So, basically, I just need to get back 2-3 pounds of muscle. Like I said, I have very good "muscle memory" as I like to call it. I got very ill about 10 months ago and dropped all the way down to 170 pounds, but after I was healthy again, it took me less than 2 months to get back up to 195. It's very easy for me to hit the 195lb mark, but maintaining it and adding more is quite a mission lol!

A: Still think you are ecto/endo... :-)

Yea, I've read into HIIT cardio and understand how EPOC works. I'm curious, how do you feel that this would be a better option "for my goals"? Do you think that I would be less likely to lose LBM with HIIT as opposed to low-moderate intensity at a steady pace? And if so, why? I was always under the impression that lower intensity while maintaining a constant not-too-high heart rate would be better for this.

A: This is a much debated topic. As I understand you want a good LBM and low BF%. This picture would explain it a whole lot better. Sprinter vs Marathon runner.



Sprinters mostly do HIIT training. They have very low BF%. Marathon runners do a lot of endurance training. They have very low BF%. But the difference between the two is the muscle mass. Sprinters keep their muscles, and they are super strong.

I guess the difference between the 2 types of training is the way energy is needed.

HITT:
- Very High energy out put for short periods whilst training. (Probably no Fat will be used for energy)
- Very low energy output for very long period (up to 48hours after exercise), due to EPOC. (This is where your body would turn to fat stores for some of the energy.)

Endurance:
- Medium/high energy output for a medium period whilst training. (Very likely for some fat to get used as energy)

So it is more about the net far loss over a period, not just during training.

That is in layman's terms the basic science behind it, and it is also my experience with both the types of cardio.

[musclestack]

Thanks again for the reply Provita. I will post a new diet plan in another thread after a couple weeks for critque once I fine-tune it. What do you think about carb-cycling? Or even one day in the week where I keep carbs high, protein the same, and fats extremely low (more like a one-day carb up, on my non-training day), to keep my body guessing, more or less?

I understand what your're saying about the differences in marathon runners/sprinters and HIIT/LIC. Do you feel I would benefit better for my goals (retaining LBM while cutting fat) with the HIIT rather than the LIC? And if so, could you give me an example of what a cardio workout would look like say, for example, on the treadmill?

Aslo, just something I'm going to throw in here, I have never seen a video of a professional bodybuilder doing what I would call 'cardio', whether it be LIC or HIIT. I think I've seen Jay Cutler at a very low speed on the ellyptical and possibly the stairmaster, but neither really looked all that intense. What do you make of this?

[musclestack]

bump

[Provita]

Sorry Musclestack... I did not see your reply.

I'm just quickly on the forum via phone. Will reply asap.

[Provita]

Thanks again for the reply Provita. I will post a new diet plan in another thread after a couple weeks for critque once I fine-tune it. What do you think about carb-cycling? Or even one day in the week where I keep carbs high, protein the same, and fats extremely low (more like a one-day carb up, on my non-training day), to keep my body guessing, more or less? Carb cycling works for many people. I for one, have never done it, and I'm at 10% BF. But I know to little about it to comment on it. Sorry! Maybe guys like 405 and gbrice could chip in and help you with that. There are some good threads about it on the forum. Just do a search for them and I'm sure you will find some helpful info.

I understand what your're saying about the differences in marathon runners/sprinters and HIIT/LIC. Do you feel I would benefit better for my goals (retaining LBM while cutting fat) with the HIIT rather than the LIC? And if so, could you give me an example of what a cardio workout would look like say, for example, on the treadmill?
There are many routines available. My preference is after a quick 5 min warm up, just to get the HR up. Then:

1. 20 sec Sprint (As fast as you can go)
2. 1 minute recovery walk. Not to fast, your HR should go down.
3. Repeat step 1 and 2 for 7-10 times.
4. Cool down is a nice brisk walk for 5 min, slowing down a bit every 60-90 sec. (This is to bring down you HR in a steady manner.)

Progression:
You can ether lengthen the sprint to 25/30sec or reduce recovery walk by 10-20sec.

The sprint should not last more than 30 sec and the recovery should not be less than 40 sec. (if you are able to sprint for longer than 30 sec or recover in less than 40sec, your sprint intensity is not high enough)

Aslo, just something I'm going to throw in here, I have never seen a video of a professional bodybuilder doing what I would call 'cardio', whether it be LIC or HIIT. I think I've seen Jay Cutler at a very low speed on the ellyptical and possibly the stairmaster, but neither really looked all that intense. What do you make of this?


That is true, you do not always see the big blokes on the cardio machines (Some of them are), but that does not mean they do not do cardio. Usually, they do bulking and cutting cycles. In bulking, they lift heavy with low reps. When it comes to cutting, you see them lift light weights, but many reps. This is another form of HIIT. Instead of sprinting for 20-30sec and recovery for 60 sec, they lift light weight at a high and fast intensity and then recover for 60-90sec. This will give you more or less the same type of cardio workout.

Hope this makes sense?

Reds!!

[--->>405<<---]

Thanks again for the reply Provita. I will post a new diet plan in another thread after a couple weeks for critque once I fine-tune it. What do you think about carb-cycling? Or even one day in the week where I keep carbs high, protein the same, and fats extremely low (more like a one-day carb up, on my non-training day), to keep my body guessing, more or less?

muscle hows it going?

what are the odds the weight u lost was primarily water?

carb cycling is a great tool to have to get lean and maintain LBM. while keeping ur body guessing is a good idea the question about a high carb day would be do u need it? the reason u have high carb days is to replenish muscle glycogen and give ur metabolism a kick with elevated calories to keep it from adapting and becoming sluggish due to long periods of low carbs/deficit.

there are many ways to cycle carbs. carb cycling is just that: cycling ur carb amounts daily. so u have 3 kinds of days regarding carbs: high, moderate, low/NO

the question is in what ratio do u want to run them? personally i have had good success with a 7 day cycle and a 2 day cycle, and a 3 day cycle.

7 day: low, low, low, high, mod, mod, mod repeat

3day: low, low, high repeat

2day: low, high (more maintenance)..

typically on ur low days it is better IMO to not have any starchy/sugary carbs at all. such as (but not limited to) rice, oats, bread, pasta, beans, dairy, fruit, etc.. and instead keep ur carbs veggies like spinach, asparagus, broccoli, salad, etc..

i suggest google carb cycle as well as u can check out: "hey 405, what is carb cycling?" which is in this section somewhere ill bump it for u. it shows how to set up ur days/cals/carbs..

[musclestack]

Hmmm...interesting, especially the part about using high reps in training with weights for HIIT 'cardio'. What would you consider 'high reps'? 15, 20 reps??

Also, when I calculate the minutes together from your example of an HIIT cardio workout, it comes out to only about 13-14 minutes. Do you think that's enough time to actually get a good cardio workout in?

And I will do a search on carb cycling. Thanks a lot!

[musclestack]

muscle hows it going?

what are the odds the weight u lost was primarily water?

carb cycling is a great tool to have to get lean and maintain LBM. while keeping ur body guessing is a good idea the question about a high carb day would be do u need it? the reason u have high carb days is to replenish muscle glycogen and give ur metabolism a kick with elevated calories to keep it from adapting and becoming sluggish due to long periods of low carbs/deficit.

there are many ways to cycle carbs. carb cycling is just that: cycling ur carb amounts daily. so u have 3 kinds of days regarding carbs: high, moderate, low/NO

the question is in what ratio do u want to run them? personally i have had good success with a 7 day cycle and a 2 day cycle, and a 3 day cycle.

7 day: low, low, low, high, mod, mod, mod repeat

3day: low, low, high repeat

2day: low, high (more maintenance)..

typically on ur low days it is better IMO to not have any starchy/sugary carbs at all. such as (but not limited to) rice, oats, bread, pasta, beans, dairy, fruit, etc.. and instead keep ur carbs veggies like spinach, asparagus, broccoli, salad, etc..

i suggest google carb cycle as well as u can check out: "hey 405, what is carb cycling?" which is in this section somewhere ill bump it for u. it shows how to set up ur days/cals/carbs..

Thanks for chiming in 405! I will definitely google carb cycling and, also, check out your thread. Sounds interesting and may be the best way to diet down for me. I will do some research tonight after gym and come back with any questions I may have.

Aslo, I know for a fact that what I lost was not primarily water. Whenever I diet down, I lose 95% of my water weight within the first 10 days. And I usually ALWAYS hold about 7-8 pounds of water when I'm bulking. So, I started at 197lbs, then went down to 190 within 8 days of dieting/cardio. After that, I carried on with my routine, and around the 3-4 week mark, my weight dropped VERY drastically and I lost A LOT of strength. Something was very wrong. I just want to make sure it doesn't happen again this time around.

[Provita]

Hmmm...interesting, especially the part about using high reps in training with weights for HIIT 'cardio'. What would you consider 'high reps'? 15, 20 reps??

I have heard people do anything from 16-30reps. I do not do that type of training, so I can not comment on what works best for me. But yes, 15+.

Also, when I calculate the minutes together from your example of an HIIT cardio workout, it comes out to only about 13-14 minutes. Do you think that's enough time to actually get a good cardio workout in?

It is High Intensity. So if you can go on for an hour, your intensity is not high. I gave you an example of one exercise. You can do some HIIT rowing or cycling as well. But it is quite a mind shift, to go from low intensity cardio to HIIT. Remember EPOC. So in fact, you are not just training for 15 minutes.

I saw a documentary, "The truth about exercise" a while back. There are some studies done in some UK university, can't remember which one, about HIIT. They put people on HIIT training (3x20sec sprints, 3 x per week) Yes, that's right. A grand total of 3 minutes per week. They got some crazy results. In almost all of the cases, the VO2 Max increased, and blood insulin levels were more stable. There were only a few non responders (A certain genetic type).

Now that really shows, the efficacy of HIIT. It is a different mind set. One thinks, more is more. But that is not true in all cases. Work smart!!

I would just like to highlight this again. Is is not about time training, but the way the muscles are worked and energy is used.

HITT:
- Very High energy out put for short periods whilst training. (Probably no Fat will be used for energy)
- Very low energy output for very long period (up to 48hours after exercise), due to EPOC. (This is where your body would turn to fat stores for some of the energy.)

Endurance:
- Medium/high energy output for a medium period whilst training. (Very likely for some fat to get used as energy)

And I will do a search on carb cycling. Thanks a lot!

Reds

Thanks 405!!

[musclestack]

Also very interesting. I would also be curious as to what bodyfat percentage these subjects in the UK were at when they started this experiment.

I will start researching on HIIT cardio and carb cycling. I see that 405 just bumped a thread on it!

Thanks Provita and 405! I will come back with any questions after reading up on both.