Stockton, California in Bankruptcy

[Honkey_Kong]

Did anyone else see what's happening there? They're waiting for a decision today on the city's petition for chapter 9 bankruptcy. This decision can set a very bad precedent across this country.

What are you guy's opinion on this? I kind also want to know Godfather's opinion on whether or not the federal government's has the right to override the state's law on pension debts having to be honoured.

http://news.yahoo.com/stockton-bankr...080518520.html

[Times Roman]

this is right up the road from me. to a certain extent, the city spent as if the "good times" would never come to an end, a fool hearty position. Elk Grove, a boarder city to Stockton, was the fastest growing city in the USA just a few short years ago, and when the market crashed, the fastest destabilizing city in the USA.

the rules that calculate a persons pension is substantially flawed, as follows:

"Attorney Guy Neal, who represents creditors, spent a good deal of his trial time showing that for years Stockton had granted bloated labor contracts and benefits, and then allowed employees to boost their retirement benefits further by cashing out vacation time and sick leave in their last year of employment, thus raising their benchmark annual salary for retirement benefit purposes."

So this is sort of how it works. I have six months vacation saved up. My last year, I cash out, instead of use, this vacation, raising the bar of what my final years income was. My retirement is now based on this last year's income!

Personally, the city managers that allowed, along with the union bosses that pushed hard to have that written into the employees contracts, really have violated the meaning of a persons income.

It's bad enough that in most cases, government workers are the only ones that have a pension nowadays. They should feel lucky. But instead, they want to bend the rules, and include other compensation besides base pay, into their retirement calculation.

Many retire with incomes that are MORE than their regular earnings while they had worked?

Is that right?

NO!!

So if the city can no longer pay, I think that, along with any other debt, these pension liabilities, and the benefits they pay, need to be impaired.

The gravy train has stopped Gentlemen! It's now time to get off and walk the rest of the way

[Flagg]

Nice to know it's just not the Euro *one that's in a crisis..

[Times Roman]

Nice to know it's just not the Euro *one that's in a crisis..

these communities are falling apart, and unfortunately, I'm in the middle of it trying to find a local job...........

[thegodfather]

Did anyone else see what's happening there? They're waiting for a decision today on the city's petition for chapter 9 bankruptcy. This decision can set a very bad precedent across this country.

What are you guy's opinion on this? I kind also want to know Godfather's opinion on whether or not the federal government's has the right to override the state's law on pension debts having to be honoured.

http://news.yahoo.com/stockton-bankr...080518520.html

Well, these Federal cases that involve California law are always tricky. Mostly because, after 2008, there was a sort of "revival" of the 10th Amendment by many states who did not want to comply with Obamacare, and other onerous laws or regulations of the Federal government. Usually there are two key areas we see 10th amendment defenses used by states against the reach of the Federal government, and that is with regards to substances under the Federal controlled substances act (Schedules I-IV), and firearms regulations. So it would follow a logical conclusion that states experiencing financial difficulties as the recession/housing bubble of 2008 continues to loom, reovery continues to be slow at best, and with decreasing tax revenues states and municipalities within them are starting to reap the financial whirlwind of betting on 10%+ increases in property values per year. We must remember, the prinicipal way in which municipalities (and to a degree State governments) earn their fiscal year budgets is by property taxation, which pays for the salaries of municipal employees including police officers, pays for improvements and city works projects (although some municipalities do recieve Federal grants and such), and most functions we have come to expect from our city's/municipalities/townships.

The problem with Stockton, and I suspect many many towns across the United States, is that they set their costs&expenditure projections based on a market which was artificially manipulated and for all intents and purposes did not exist. What we are experiencing now is a correction of the market, and it has taken so long because of TARP and other bailout money. The cure is sometimes painful, but had the government NOT intervened in 2008 and allowed toxic assets to go into default, and become liquidated, the INITIAL effects would have been QUITE severe, but the market corrections would take 12-18 months, and the economy would be on an upswing right now, maybe even fully recovered to pre-housing bubble status (not to the absurdity that was 2002-2008 in the markets). This is a principle example of the drastic consequences of the government artificially manipulating the market (I.E.- having the Fed lower prime interest rates to 1%, in order to 'encourage home ownership), and their attempts at trying to pick winners and losers (I.E.-causing starvation by diverting corn from food sales into biodiesel, which was extremely costly, and at the end of the process yielded about as much energy out as was necessary to produce it in the first place. I realize I've gotten quite off topic, but these things are paramount to understanding the current situation and state of affairs.

So back on topic now...The state will likely assert its 10th amendment rights, in so far as the powers not specifically relegated to the Federal government are reserved to the states. Now, we know that his is often fool hardy and the Federal government has encroached into so many areas of daily life of citizens in every state, that the founding fathers would not recognize the country they founded today, the idea of 50 laboratories for the democratic process, a republican form of government, and free markets is truely revolutionary and I would say is probably the most profound 'inventions' of the 18th century. They are unlikely to win this battle however, but the implications are huge for other towns around the United States, in the article it stated the Judge moved this case to appellate court for the sole purpose of having a precedent established and for case law to be available, he recognized the significance of this case (and probably realized his ruling would have wound up in appellate courts anyway, as well as the fact that he basically just kicked the ball further up the street so he didnt have to deal with it).

One point however, with which I disagree, is that retirees under the pension system should have to "roll with the times" up and down. We do not INCREASE pension payments when the economy is doing extraordinarily well, ergo, why would we DECREASE pension payments&benefits because the economy is doing poorly. Those workers did their 20-25 years under a specific set of agreements, with specific expectations, and to penalize them would be unjust, whether or not they had lucrative and arguably absurd contracts or not. Other than Union reps and delegates, the workers have little to do with the process of negoiating contracts and managing the actual pension fund.

This is why I believe restructuring debt is the key to solving these problems with citys&municipalities. Here in New Jersey, our governor, who I am a big fan of, has attacked teacher & police salaries,pensions,etc. Now, our salary, pension, & benefits for our teachers & police officers in the state were quite generous, on par with the kind of bafoonary that Stockton was dolling out. Teachers & Police payed 1% of their healthcare costs, and the rest was shouldered by the tax payers, they were up in arms when it was raised to 5%, still not even close to what those in the private sector pay for their benefits package. It should also be noted that we have the highest paid law enforcement personnell in the entire country, and teachers salaries after 20 years in can reach upwards of $90,000-$100,000 per year, for a regular classroom or gym teacher. Where I disagreed with the governor was in changing the benefits & pension plans for those who signed up/took jobs as teachers&police officers under certain conditions, and things were changed even for those who have been in 20 years on the job. I disagree with this practice, because I believe it is a CONTRACT, and you do not change contracts on a whim, the way to effect change is to make the necessary adjustments to these compensation programs for all NEW hires, and to buyout people who have been on the job for 25-30+ years, past the time when they are able to retire under their contracts, but completely topped out and earning a substantial amount of money. It saves school districts and municipal police departments a substantial amount of money to buy out people who have been on the job for 30 years, and are earning the very top of the pay scale, and to bring in new blood. Additionally, it is also stimulating to the economy to have those in the younger generation (mine) looking to start careers, and being able to become contributing memebers of society. Young people with new careers, buy new cars, buy homes, and spend money in every area of the economy in order to furnish those homes, to maintain them, etc. In conclusion, there is no one easy, one size fits all answer to very complicated economic problems that we deal with, but debt restructuring is the proper and fair thing to do, for the citizens of the towns&states, to the public workers, and to the creditors who floated those towns through tough economic times.

P.S.- for anyone curious, one of the main ways in which the Federal government circumvents the 10th Amendment, is by the interstate commerce clause (which was grossly misinterpreted by SCOTUS decisions in the past 80 years), and Federal funding. For instance, to get every state to raise their drinking age to 21, the Federal government told states that unless they did so, they would recieve NO Federal money for highways in their states. This is significant, because the states PAY into the Federal taxes, but if they were not to get their money back, it would be detrimental in the long term to their infrastructure. With regard to interstate commerce, they believe they can regulate and goods which cross state lines. One interesting proposal by Utah, and a handful of other states in response to proposed firearm regulations several years ago, and more recently since the Newtown incident, is to pass bills which state that any firearms completely MANUFACTURED, ASSEMBLED, & SOLD within the state is not subject to Federal law, and therefore, if a state so desired, they could allow firearms manufacturers in those states to produce automatic firearms en mass, the importation and sale of new automatic firearms was banned in 1986. This means there is a FINITE supply of automatic firearms on the private gun market, in states which allow Class III tax stamps for individual citizens to own fully automatic weapons. I thought it was quite a novel and brilliant idea to propose the manufacture of such weapons which would circumvent the Federal governments grasp over interstate commerce.

[Rwy]

god father is there not one topic you are extremely well versed in...Jesus Christ you are the forums god will hunting....lol

[FONZY007]

I live in Stockton and I feel bad for the police and fireman that take a hit.. We hire new officers to lose our veterans to other cities.. They are taking a 20% hit..

Also when the market was good. My police buddy told me that the cities pension fund was 100% funded and the city was spending the money instead of putting it into the fund. They did that for 6 years and they ended up needing to give the fund 90 million in which they didn't have...

She told me she pays $400 bucks a month or health insurance and with a co pay of 2000k per person and can't have dual coverage...

That just sucks...

Stockton created there own problems

[thegodfather]

god father is there not one topic you are extremely well versed in...Jesus Christ you are the forums god will hunting....lol

Mathematics!!!!....I passed Physics I&II by the skin of my damn teeth!

[West Coast Winner]

Did anyone else see what's happening there? They're waiting for a decision today on the city's petition for chapter 9 bankruptcy. This decision can set a very bad precedent across this country.

What are you guy's opinion on this? I kind also want to know Godfather's opinion on whether or not the federal government's has the right to override the state's law on pension debts having to be honoured.

http://news.yahoo.com/stockton-bankr...080518520.html

I grew up near Stockton. Are you from the area? Sorry this is off topic, but maybe we should train sometime. Always looking to train with serious lifters.

[Honkey_Kong]

Well, these Federal cases that involve California law are always tricky. Mostly because, after 2008, there was a sort of "revival" of the 10th Amendment by many states who did not want to comply with Obamacare, and other onerous laws or regulations of the Federal government. Usually there are two key areas we see 10th amendment defenses used by states against the reach of the Federal government, and that is with regards to substances under the Federal controlled substances act (Schedules I-IV), and firearms regulations. So it would follow a logical conclusion that states experiencing financial difficulties as the recession/housing bubble of 2008 continues to loom, reovery continues to be slow at best, and with decreasing tax revenues states and municipalities within them are starting to reap the financial whirlwind of betting on 10%+ increases in property values per year. We must remember, the prinicipal way in which municipalities (and to a degree State governments) earn their fiscal year budgets is by property taxation, which pays for the salaries of municipal employees including police officers, pays for improvements and city works projects (although some municipalities do recieve Federal grants and such), and most functions we have come to expect from our city's/municipalities/townships.

The problem with Stockton, and I suspect many many towns across the United States, is that they set their costs&expenditure projections based on a market which was artificially manipulated and for all intents and purposes did not exist. What we are experiencing now is a correction of the market, and it has taken so long because of TARP and other bailout money. The cure is sometimes painful, but had the government NOT intervened in 2008 and allowed toxic assets to go into default, and become liquidated, the INITIAL effects would have been QUITE severe, but the market corrections would take 12-18 months, and the economy would be on an upswing right now, maybe even fully recovered to pre-housing bubble status (not to the absurdity that was 2002-2008 in the markets). This is a principle example of the drastic consequences of the government artificially manipulating the market (I.E.- having the Fed lower prime interest rates to 1%, in order to 'encourage home ownership), and their attempts at trying to pick winners and losers (I.E.-causing starvation by diverting corn from food sales into biodiesel, which was extremely costly, and at the end of the process yielded about as much energy out as was necessary to produce it in the first place. I realize I've gotten quite off topic, but these things are paramount to understanding the current situation and state of affairs.

So back on topic now...The state will likely assert its 10th amendment rights, in so far as the powers not specifically relegated to the Federal government are reserved to the states. Now, we know that his is often fool hardy and the Federal government has encroached into so many areas of daily life of citizens in every state, that the founding fathers would not recognize the country they founded today, the idea of 50 laboratories for the democratic process, a republican form of government, and free markets is truely revolutionary and I would say is probably the most profound 'inventions' of the 18th century. They are unlikely to win this battle however, but the implications are huge for other towns around the United States, in the article it stated the Judge moved this case to appellate court for the sole purpose of having a precedent established and for case law to be available, he recognized the significance of this case (and probably realized his ruling would have wound up in appellate courts anyway, as well as the fact that he basically just kicked the ball further up the street so he didnt have to deal with it).

One point however, with which I disagree, is that retirees under the pension system should have to "roll with the times" up and down. We do not INCREASE pension payments when the economy is doing extraordinarily well, ergo, why would we DECREASE pension payments&benefits because the economy is doing poorly. Those workers did their 20-25 years under a specific set of agreements, with specific expectations, and to penalize them would be unjust, whether or not they had lucrative and arguably absurd contracts or not. Other than Union reps and delegates, the workers have little to do with the process of negoiating contracts and managing the actual pension fund.

This is why I believe restructuring debt is the key to solving these problems with citys&municipalities. Here in New Jersey, our governor, who I am a big fan of, has attacked teacher & police salaries,pensions,etc. Now, our salary, pension, & benefits for our teachers & police officers in the state were quite generous, on par with the kind of bafoonary that Stockton was dolling out. Teachers & Police payed 1% of their healthcare costs, and the rest was shouldered by the tax payers, they were up in arms when it was raised to 5%, still not even close to what those in the private sector pay for their benefits package. It should also be noted that we have the highest paid law enforcement personnell in the entire country, and teachers salaries after 20 years in can reach upwards of $90,000-$100,000 per year, for a regular classroom or gym teacher. Where I disagreed with the governor was in changing the benefits & pension plans for those who signed up/took jobs as teachers&police officers under certain conditions, and things were changed even for those who have been in 20 years on the job. I disagree with this practice, because I believe it is a CONTRACT, and you do not change contracts on a whim, the way to effect change is to make the necessary adjustments to these compensation programs for all NEW hires, and to buyout people who have been on the job for 25-30+ years, past the time when they are able to retire under their contracts, but completely topped out and earning a substantial amount of money. It saves school districts and municipal police departments a substantial amount of money to buy out people who have been on the job for 30 years, and are earning the very top of the pay scale, and to bring in new blood. Additionally, it is also stimulating to the economy to have those in the younger generation (mine) looking to start careers, and being able to become contributing memebers of society. Young people with new careers, buy new cars, buy homes, and spend money in every area of the economy in order to furnish those homes, to maintain them, etc. In conclusion, there is no one easy, one size fits all answer to very complicated economic problems that we deal with, but debt restructuring is the proper and fair thing to do, for the citizens of the towns&states, to the public workers, and to the creditors who floated those towns through tough economic times.

P.S.- for anyone curious, one of the main ways in which the Federal government circumvents the 10th Amendment, is by the interstate commerce clause (which was grossly misinterpreted by SCOTUS decisions in the past 80 years), and Federal funding. For instance, to get every state to raise their drinking age to 21, the Federal government told states that unless they did so, they would recieve NO Federal money for highways in their states. This is significant, because the states PAY into the Federal taxes, but if they were not to get their money back, it would be detrimental in the long term to their infrastructure. With regard to interstate commerce, they believe they can regulate and goods which cross state lines. One interesting proposal by Utah, and a handful of other states in response to proposed firearm regulations several years ago, and more recently since the Newtown incident, is to pass bills which state that any firearms completely MANUFACTURED, ASSEMBLED, & SOLD within the state is not subject to Federal law, and therefore, if a state so desired, they could allow firearms manufacturers in those states to produce automatic firearms en mass, the importation and sale of new automatic firearms was banned in 1986. This means there is a FINITE supply of automatic firearms on the private gun market, in states which allow Class III tax stamps for individual citizens to own fully automatic weapons. I thought it was quite a novel and brilliant idea to propose the manufacture of such weapons which would circumvent the Federal governments grasp over interstate commerce.

What I bolded, I wanted to say I totally am in agreement with. You can't just promise somebody one thing and then say "no" after they already held their part of the agreement. Even the guys currently working for them I think should be grandfathered in.

[Honkey_Kong]

I grew up near Stockton. Are you from the area? Sorry this is off topic, but maybe we should train sometime. Always looking to train with serious lifters.

No, I don't live near Stockton. I just read this in the news. It's national-news worthy due to the fact it's going to be setting a precedent.

Thanks for offering to train with me. If I were in the area, I might've taken you up on it.

[West Coast Winner]

No, I don't live near Stockton. I just read this in the news. It's national-news worthy due to the fact it's going to be setting a precedent.

Thanks for offering to train with me. If I were in the area, I might've taken you up on it.

Sorry I interrupted you guys. take care ill continue to read along.

[Honkey_Kong]

Sorry I interrupted you guys. take care ill continue to read along.

I didn't mean to be a dick or anything....

[West Coast Winner]

I didn't mean to be a dick or anything....

No you weren't. I was just saying sorry for being off topic.