2nd Cycle Advice

[dinomachino]

Hey all, thanks in advance for any advice you can provide!

6'1" 210 <12% 27yo, attempting to lean bulk. I have run once cycle so far, test E 500mg for 10 weeks, only netted 6 lean lbs, should have eaten more (3400kcal wasnt enough), although was up 23lb at one point with all the water retention. I literally lost 15lbs in the last 10 days of PCT, no exaggeration at all (219-204).

I'm gearing up for my 2nd cycle now, and would like a critique of this plan:

Weeks 1-4: Test E 500mg (250x2), Test P (100 EOD as kickstart), Anavar (75ED)
Weeks 5-10: Test E 750mg (375x2), 6 week break from orals
Weeks 11-15: Test E 750mg (375x2), Anavar (75ED)
Weeks 1-17: Adex .5mg EOD
Weeks 5-17: HCG 500iu (250x2)
Week 18: Clomid 50mg, Tamox 20mg
Weeks 19-21: Clomid 25mg, Tamox 10mg

Another option is to reduce the test dosage and add in NPP, but I've heard its a safer to only add one new compound at a time to assess tolerance, and I'm already adding var.


And this time 4k min calories per day!

[Bio-Active]

Run the hcg from the beginning of the cycle all the way uo to 3 days before starting pct. 14 days from last pin nolva 40/40/20/20 clomid 100/50/50/50 if sides from the clomid are not tolerable lower the first week. I would keep the test the same through the cycle instead of upping it. Start adex at .25 oed and bump it up if needed. Why not run test only with a better nutrition plan this time? I see no reason to add other compounds to your second cycle when by your own admission your nutrition could have been better as in eating more during the first cycle?

[austinite]

Welcome, Dino.

1. There is no need to play yoyo with your gear. Choose a dose and stick to it.
2. Your last cycle was 10 weeks, take this one to 12 weeks. No need for 15 weeks.
3. No need to exceed 600mg. You could even repeat your last cycle, just fix your diet this time.
4. hCG from day one.
5. Better PCT protocol; Clomid @ 75/50/50/50 & Nolva @ 40/20/20/20
6. I wouldn't worry about NPP until you've done a satisfactory Test cycle.
7. Hit the nutrition section. Don't play the guessing game with calories. You also need to mind your macronutrients.

Good luck.

[Docd187123]

I have to reiterate what's been said, no need to go with a much heavier cycle. Work on fixing the nutrition side of things and you should see much better results. Make sure you get a good macro profile, total energy intake, plenty of water and fluids, and stick with one dosage throughout the cycle. Good luck.

[dinomachino]

I should elaborate on the diet. Although I was eating 3400kcal, it was a super clean 3400. For example

1: 1 egg, 5 whites, 1 apple, 1 cup oatmeal
2: 1 serving Pump HD, 1 Serving Xtend, 1.5 servings Iso 100, 1 serving Size On (pre, aminos, whey, recovery)
3: 8 oz chicken, 1 onion, 2 chilis, 12 oz sweet potatoe, 1 cup brocc, .5 tbsp coconut oil
4: same as 3
5: same as 3, but beef tenderloin or 93% ground beef instead of chicken.
+ 1-2 servings of nuts at some point

275-300 pro, 350-400 carbs, ~75 fat

I am extremely well versed on nutrition and training, just ex-fatty with fear of weight gain syndrome.

[austinite]

^ I don't see how you got these macros from that diet. I don't do shakes so maybe a ton of your macros are from there.

[Bio-Active]

I should elaborate on the diet. Although I was eating 3400kcal, it was a super clean 3400. For example

1: 1 egg, 5 whites, 1 apple, 1 cup oatmeal
2: 1 serving Pump HD, 1 Serving Xtend, 1.5 servings Iso 100, 1 serving Size On (pre, aminos, whey, recovery)
3: 8 oz chicken, 1 onion, 2 chilis, 12 oz sweet potatoe, 1 cup brocc, .5 tbsp coconut oil
4: same as 3
5: same as 3, but beef tenderloin or 93% ground beef instead of chicken.
+ 1-2 servings of nuts at some point

275-300 pro, 350-400 carbs, ~75 fat

You should post this up in the nutrition forum and let those gurus look at it. It doesn't seem like a lot if food to me

[dinomachino]

Also, here is me: imgur.com/MsFltr0.jpg

[Docd187123]

I should elaborate on the diet. Although I was eating 3400kcal, it was a super clean 3400. For example

1: 1 egg, 5 whites, 1 apple, 1 cup oatmeal
2: 1 serving Pump HD, 1 Serving Xtend, 1.5 servings Iso 100, 1 serving Size On (pre, aminos, whey, recovery)
3: 8 oz chicken, 1 onion, 2 chilis, 12 oz sweet potatoe, 1 cup brocc, .5 tbsp coconut oil
4: same as 3
5: same as 3, but beef tenderloin or 93% ground beef instead of chicken.
+ 1-2 servings of nuts at some point

275-300 pro, 350-400 carbs, ~75 fat

I am extremely well versed on nutrition and training, just ex-fatty with fear of weight gain syndrome.

Clean is a subjective term so it's use as a description for diet can leave a lot of room for interpretation. There are diets that fit your total energy needs, fit your macro/micro needs, and that are tailored to your goals and then there are diets that are not. Just bc someone eats chicken breast instead of a ribeye does not make a diet clean, or dirty for that matter either. The diet you listed is right on or slightly below the minimum requirements for dietary fat intake of .4g/lb BW. Not that you're very far off from this number but you have more than enough protein and carbs that you could reduce to raise this somewhat.

[dinomachino]

meal 3-4 each are around 700kcal, meal 5 is over 800, meal 1 is 600, 200 from nuts, 400 from all the shakes = 3400.


12 oz of sweet poatoe is around 270kcal and 75g carbs, I do this x3.

[dinomachino]

So far: eat more, **** npp, run a consistent dose of test E (either 600 or 650), increase PCT dosages.

Why run HCG from week 1? I've heard NOT to run it for too long else you can build tolerance. I originally was going to start week 3, but changes to week 5 after reading this.

[Docd187123]

So far: eat more, **** npp, run a consistent dose of test E (either 600 or 650), increase PCT dosages.

Why run HCG from week 1? I've heard NOT to run it for too long else you can build tolerance. I originally was going to start week 3, but changes to week 5 after reading this.

It's not about building tolerance really to HCG. It's about desensitizing your ledyig cells which affect endogenous testosterone production. And for that desensitizion to occur you'd need extremely high dosages or even lower dosages could do it but the time frame for that to happen would be much longer than you plan to cycle for.

[dinomachino]

Thanks Docd, very good to know, you are beyond helpful!

[Docd187123]

Don't have the time now to really calculate the macros out now but if they're accurate as you say you an easily bump up your total energy intake and specifically dietary fats by using whole eggs instead of the whites, adding more coconut oil to any of meals 3,4,5, adding whole milk to your shake, avacados with any meal, or using a fattier cut of meat besides tenderloin.

Also if yore an ex-fatty (no offense meant by this just using your words lol) you know how log it took you to get rid of the fat. Well fat gain is very similar. You will not get fat overnight. Processes like that take time and that's why you should always take measurements and weight readings and calibrate your diet accordingly. If you notice you're not gaining weight at a good rate, bump calories up by ~300/day. If weight gain is far too fast (not counting water weight) cut back calories by ~300/day. Take a week or two and adjust again if necessary. Also as your weight and lbm change during a cycle whether up or down, this forces your diet to become dynamic and not static. You can start your cycle off at 3700cals/day but if you're up 15lbs by wk6 or something, you need to calibrate your diet based on your new stats.

[dinomachino]

I'm a VBA programmer, so my diet spreadsheet is badass. I track down to the calorie and g of each macro, every single item I put in my body. I look at weekly averages, tons of graphs and different metrics. When I talked about losing 15 lbs in the last week of PCT, my kcal intake was extremely consistent every day, and my weight had been at 219 checked multiple times a day for over 5 consecutive days, when I dropped down to 204 (in 10 days), I stayed at 204 for several consecutive days with multiple weigh-ins (I take the average). Over 3-4 weeks I've slowly climbed back to 208, but definitely not as lean (eating 3600-3700 ish now, more fats around 85g total).

Good point about dynamic dieting, as the weight increased so should have the calories, this was my mistake.