Prohormone's likely culprit, LOW TESTOSTERONE

[MC30]

I'm 32 and have taken PH Tren, Massdrol, PheraMass, given some cavalier advice from someone who didn't have problems with them. I got off of them for almost 4 years now no pct, brand new to those supplements and was told that they were less harmful than regular steroids. I just stopped taking them due to feeling stiff in my muscles; just got tested when I was going to have my rat try some peptides for joint repair. 4.3 (1.5-4.2) range, 228 (348-1197) range. Def not good, I was still making some progress in the gym but libido was on and off, feeling a little tired but I have a tight working and school schedule. I was prescribed some T gel from doc, but I am using clomid first to see if it might jumpstart my natural production. Any advice would be appreciated. The rat is still on ghrp-2, and TB-500 loading phase. Thanks

[Peer]

prohormones definitely can crush your natty test. Plus the orals can greatly stress the liver. I think they are way more dangerous that AAS's just by the mere fact that the average PH user has not done any research on the effects and has no clue on HPTA suppression and PCT.

I would ask if you have had a complete workup.
Not enough sleep or worse untreated sleep apnea will impair your testosterone.
Have you had your vit D, cortisol, insulin, thyroid panel, FSH, LH checked?

[MC30]

prohormones definitely can crush your natty test. Plus the orals can greatly stress the liver. I think they are way more dangerous that AAS's just by the mere fact that the average PH user has not done any research on the effects and has no clue on HPTA suppression and PCT.

I would ask if you have had a complete workup.
Not enough sleep or worse untreated sleep apnea will impair your testosterone.
Have you had your vit D, cortisol, insulin, thyroid panel, FSH, LH checked?

I have to check back with the doc, just got basic numbers over the phone. I will get a paper copy but I would also like the exact acronyms for AAS (anabolic _ Steroids) FSH (blank) and LH (blank). I started clomiphene 200mg 1st day and 100mg going on week 1. I will probably have my rat stop ghrp-2, mixed reviews for gh restoration, TB-500 I think will be more effective for rats joints. Should I just stick with clomid? So far so good, day3 and boys hanging lower, didn't give much thought and slight increase in size. Not that they were small before, and now a slight ache in them, one more than the other. Heard that was a good sign that they are starting back up. I was taking dhea 25x2 daily for a few days, just stopped yesterday. Read that it might interfere with clomid, reviews mixed on dhea affects as well. Also had libido going but hard to maintain full sail, heard that might be a slightly different hormone defficency. Going to give my acupuncturist a call as well. People bash them a lot, but it helped tremendously with knee, and shoulder inflammation. Thank you for the Reply.

[Peer]

No Problem...
AAS= Anabolic Androgenic Steroid
FSH= Follicle Stimulating Hormone
LH= Leutinizing Hormone
clomid is worth a shot
ditch the DHEA
vitamin D should be >50, it has been linked to hormonal regulation.

[MC30]

Thanks, read up on vitamin D, should I take D3 or regular? Any thoughts on my rat and ghrp2 with clomid? And before I forget, what would cause good libido but difficulty maintaining full salute? Thanks.

[Peer]

D3 is absorbed much better so that is what I do, remember it is a fat-soluble vit so must be taken with food containing some fat to get into the bloostream via cotransport in the intestinal villi.
GHRP is probably fine, it is working on a different hormonal cascade (Growth Hormone).
Erectile dysfuction is primarily from underlying organic cause (diabetes, hypertension, hypercholesterolemia, smoking causing vascular damage, can be med related from beta blockers, DHT reductase inhibitors like avodart and proscar). Sometimes it is psychologic dysfunction. If you are fine with masturbation but not intercourse then more likely there is a psychologic (Confidence issue/performance anxiety).

[MC30]

Thanks again, I think that D3 with milk has enough fat to get absorbed. I had read on another thread that he had similar issues with erections after using prohormones. Clomid has def helped with increase in the speed of erections, and maintaining them without physical stimulation. I was considering giving my rate cjc1295, and ipamorelin, to help burn more fat and thus lower estrogen, and help with Testosterone levels. Going to talk with doc Monday, I'm curious, what are the normal ranges for FH, LH ect? Or does it depend on other hormone levels?

[MC30]

Thanks again, I think that D3 with milk has enough fat to get absorbed. I had read on another thread that he had similar issues with erections after using prohormones. Clomid has def helped with increase in the speed of erections, and maintaining them without physical stimulation. I was considering giving my rate cjc1295, and ipamorelin, to help burn more fat and thus lower estrogen, and help with Testosterone levels. Going to talk with doc Monday, I'm curious, what are the normal ranges for FH, LH ect? Or does it depend on other hormone levels?

I am also taking kelp iodine supplement. I read that it can help with hormone rebalancing and getting rid of estrogen.

[Moparman]

My doc says there's not enough vit d in milk to make much of a difference. Mine was low but not deficient (25 w range 30-100). He put me on 50,000iu vit d twice a week. I'll get anoth blood test soon to check my levels.

[MC30]

My doc says there's not enough vit d in milk to make much of a difference. Mine was low but not deficient (25 w range 30-100). He put me on 50,000iu vit d twice a week. I'll get anoth blood test soon to check my levels.

I meant that milk should have enough fat for D3 supplement to be absorbed. Just got some Nature's way 5,000 iu this morning. Do you get vitamin shots at your doc office? I'll ask the doc about that as well, how much vitamin D, and how long before bloodwork will show difference? I'm on my 4th day of clomid (solo), some people say include hcg, and or nolvadex, and others say not to for various reasons. My voice has deepened more than before, which leads me to believe that I had low T before prohormones due to overtraining. That being said I do have some visual blurriness on and off, so I may have to stop. My rat had a similar problem before with gw501516. Thank you for the replies, I have read that some guys have suffered from complete HTPA shutdown. I'm guessing that in total shutdown no T at all?

[Peer]

My doc says there's not enough vit d in milk to make much of a difference. Mine was low but not deficient (25 w range 30-100). He put me on 50,000iu vit d twice a week. I'll get anoth blood test soon to check my levels.

A vit D of 25 is deficient
he did the right thing by putting you on the 50k IU but I would add 5,000IU D3 daily with food until your level is above 50. He probably gave you 8-12 weeks but once off the mega dose it is important to maintain >50. This would likely take 2000-5000IU D3 every day including in summer. Here in upstate NY vit D deficiency is extremely prevalent and we do not even fill up the vit D tank over the summer.

[Peer]

iodine is in our salt and has been an additive for decades and was done to reduce goiters from inadequate iodine. I am dubious as to whether additional iodine would help. I am sure you get plenty in your diet.

[MC30]

Thanks,I just wanted to make sure kelp would not interfere. Should I include hcg or nolva or wait for further hormone data? FH, LH ect.. Thank you again. Also if you any good docs let me know. Side note, I was taking some 7keto 100mg a few weeks ago and noticed deeper voice and energy level. I was wondering if that might indicate thyroid issue. Thank you.

[Peer]

I would not change any more variables (adding HCG) yet until your had a complete set of labs.
I personally like Cissus quadrangulis for joint and tendon health (google Super Cissus). It will not potentially raise blood sugar like glucosamine can.

[MC30]

Another thing that might be important. My rat had a few hotflashes after starting ghrp-2 again, about 2hrs after 50mg dose, didn't happen a year prior to taking same thing. If it is different cascade could that mean htpa being brought back up? I have been taking the clomid all at once, that's two doses dripped in mouth in the morning. Should I just use one in the morning and one afternoon? Friday is last day of 100mg then 50mg for two weeks.

[joeyc]

Vitamin D deficiency and joint pain are signs of MS. It would not hurt to mention that to your doctor.

[MC30]

Will do, rat had prior injuries , nothing too serious. Strains on tendons but no tears. Rat responding well to TB500 seems to have young male flexibility and no apparent pain at all now. Took clomid this morning 100mg , no visual sides, libido more frequent but not matching erections. Spoke with acupuncturist and wasnt thrilled with clomid, but did mention herbal regimine along with treatment has been effective for other males. I might give it a try after clomid. How long should I wait after clomid cycle to test levels?

[MC30]

Also thoughts on E2, is that estrogen? I read on another thread to watch out for that while on clomid. Made appt with doc for next week, going to ask for panel to include LH, FSH, Estrogen, I will check other threads but what else should I ask for?

[Moparman]

A vit D of 25 is deficient
he did the right thing by putting you on the 50k IU but I would add 5,000IU D3 daily with food until your level is above 50. He probably gave you 8-12 weeks but once off the mega dose it is important to maintain >50. This would likely take 2000-5000IU D3 every day including in summer. Here in upstate NY vit D deficiency is extremely prevalent and we do not even fill up the vit D tank over the summer.

According to my bloodwork a note on the page says that 20-30 is considered an INSUFFICIENCY. And under 20 is deficient.

In any event I talk a daily ANIMAL PACK vitamin pack and that only adds 680 iu of vit D.

It's winter so the doc says its typical to be low since no sun exposure. I'll get another blood test in two weeks or so. I'll post up my results

[MC30]

According to my bloodwork a note on the page says that 20-30 is considered an INSUFFICIENCY. And under 20 is deficient.

In any event I talk a daily ANIMAL PACK vitamin pack and that only adds 680 iu of vit D.

It's winter so the doc says its typical to be low since no sun exposure. I'll get another blood test in two weeks or so. I'll post up my results

How much does doc think T levels will gl up with D3? Just curious.

[MC30]

To Peer, felt a little emotional last night, and boys are lowering on and off. I am going to 50mg tomorrow, a few days earlier.

[Peer]

To Peer, felt a little emotional last night, and boys are lowering on and off. I am going to 50mg tomorrow, a few days earlier.

Happy to help, you have private email blocked.
E2 is estradiol, needs to be specified as the male ultrasensitive assay on the bloodwork. I think if your appointment is next week then stopping the clomid now will yield a better indication of your natural state. The clomid is going to enhance HPTA function and elevate FSH and LH which in turn will raise testosterone. I suppose all this depends on whether you would feel comfortable with longer term clomid use in the place of testosterone. Of course best case is that it has stimulated HPTA function enough for you to feel asymptomatic with good energy, libido, etc. The other option is to go on TRT which of course is chronic (with or without HCG depending on your need for preventing azoospermia (low sperm count).

[MC30]

Thanks for the info, Will it be OK to stop clomid now and finish the 4week cycle after doc appt? I am hoping that my current function level will remain the same. I also saw some other info on other sites where guys have had similar problems:

Originally Posted by chesty
I have a similar situation. I have low normal total t 279 in a range of 250-800 ng/dl. My free t is 7.5 in a range of 7.2-18. My psa is .69 in a range of 0-4. My concern is that my day is low normal of 3 in a range of 1-15 miu/ul and my lh is high normal 8.9 in a range of 1-9 miu/ul. Is my issue with my testes or pituatary glands? Am I primary or secondary hypogonadism. Thxs
Low T, high LH = testicle problem with making T. You can not fix that problem. Your only choice is to supply extra T via gel, or shots.

That is just one example, I will discuss the case with doc in order to help motivate a thorough panel. If nothing else I would like to know what exactly is not up to level and what can be done about it. I was reading about the different receptors causes issues. I will let you know about results, prob wont get them for another two weeks. If you think of any other levels that I should ask for let me know. Thanks.

[MC30]

I will change my email settings later today. Any thoughts on rat having hest flash with ghrp2? Clomid gave me a warm feeling with latest dose, I read that ghrp2&6 can help to restart htpa as well. Called Acupuncturist, going to give herbal and pressure treatment combo since I'm going off clomid for bloodwork , I think I still have enough for a 4week 50mg daily cycle.Thanks for the input.

Update: only mental stimulation needed for full sail. 100mg week too much,I will use 50mg from now on.

[MC30]

Came across information on triptorelin acetate, might restart htpa. The pomoate version apparently has higher risk of side effects I will save that for endo doc should other methods fail.

[MC30]

Here are my newest lab results:

A week after stopping clomid,

Testosterone: 384 (348-1197)

F Test 15.51 (5-21)

FR Test 4.04 (1.5-4.2)

Sex BG 14.7 (16.5-55.9)

Vit D 42 (30-100)

Cortisol 10.6 (2.4-18.6)

Thyroid 2.19 (.35-5.5)

FRT4 1 (.7-1.5)

Prolactin 16.97 (2.58-18.12)

FSH 5 (1.4-13.6)

LH 4.34 (.57-12.07)


Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you.

[Peer]

Thanks for the update,
Did you get an E2 level?
Looks as if the clomid is working although your shbg is low, I know you stopped a week prior so it could be reflected in an artificially low SHBG from your baseline.
Most docs use 0.3-3.0 for TSH reference range so you are a little higher (negative feedback loop means the higher the TSH the less thyroid hormone in your system).
Ideally your TSH should be .3-<2 (why have a slower metabolism). Vit D again would be better >50.
The biggest question is how are you feeling at this test level?
Now you need to decide whether to finish off the clomid or if you feel fine deciding not to further manipulate your endocrine system and repeat the labs in a month or so to see if in fact you have a sustained "restart" of adequate HPTA function

[Peer]

One more thing, remember to get the labs as close to waking in the am as possible.

[jasondd1]

Here are my newest lab results:

A week after stopping clomid,

Testosterone: 384 (348-1197)

F Test 15.51 (5-21)

FR Test 4.04 (1.5-4.2)

Sex BG 14.7 (16.5-55.9)

Vit D 42 (30-100)

Cortisol 10.6 (2.4-18.6)

Thyroid 2.19 (.35-5.5)

FRT4 1 (.7-1.5)

Prolactin 16.97 (2.58-18.12)

FSH 5 (1.4-13.6)

LH 4.34 (.57-12.07)


Any feedback is appreciated. Thank you.

My clomid only protocol shot my LH and FSH throught the roof. LH 13.6 and FSH 16.6. And my ranges on those were different than yours. LH (1.7-8.6), FSH (1.5-12.4). It also raised my free test to 590 from 320. I did it 6 weeks and it tanked all my other numbers and could not sleep towards the end at all.

[MC30]

Doc didnt think any E levels were needed. I will probably need to see a specialist in the near future. Acupuncturist is having me try Deer Antler 500MG, Eleuthero 500MG, and DHEA 7.5MG twice a day. Felt great after first dose, better than pro hormones. Not as good as clomid. Boys arent hanging as low that im off clomid. My goal is to get Test in normal age range 800-900. LH is around 4, so I am assuming that if I get it around 8 Test levels should also double?

[Peer]

Hmmm.. No estrogen monitoring needed? He must not be aware that you took clomid? It binds estrogen receptors. Basically tricks pituitary into releasing more LH so I would argue it is relevant. How were the mood swings?

[MC30]

No mood swings since I came off of clomid, when I did have symptoms it was just feeling more emotional than I should, no rational reason. That being said they were not that bad, just had to cut the dose. Just wondering if Luteinizing Hormone doubles will testosterone double? Didn't tell doc about clomid since he only thought its for females and did not know anything about male applications.

[MC30]

I've been on some herbal treatment from acupuncturist, some of the symptoms have improved but T levels still low 211 (241-827). I was told to give it another two months, T levels down 6% from a week of clomid, and up 6% from original levels when comparing scales. I am going to try to get new doc to test Estrogen levels, I did find an test kit that I can send out if doc wont budge. If that is the case then depending on results I will take supps on my own. What are the thoughts on this protocol?

Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - every other day.

Day 1-30 : nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day)

Day 31-45 : nolva 20mg/day

I cant get my hands of hcg but I hope that will not be needed. Also should I get Aromisin as well? Thank you.

[powerlifterty16]

10000 units of hcg per week is going to harm you imo. my doc prescribed me 1050 for the whole week for monotherapy lol....without the other meds.

[MC30]

From what I have read hcg is for nad size, clomid took care most of that. Never had much atrophy so I was not concerned. What are your thoughts on clomid/nolva amounts?

[powerlifterty16]

i have read that 25-50 per day is the norm for clomid, and anything higher causes estrogenic sides(moodiness, bitchiness, depression(....but i have ehard of people taking 100 mg for short term. I do know that a lot of people dont like clomid for long term treatment. Im not too knowledgable on nolva. I actually thought clomid and nolva were very similar and idk what the diff is.

in regard to hcg ''2. The excessive HCG dosage levels suggested in the guidelines cause a variety of problems. In particular, excessive HCG dosages cause elevated estradiol, which defeats many of the positive effects of increased Testosterone. Scientific studies have demonstrated that HCG dosage levels of about 5,000 IU per week or more administered long-term cause permanent damage to the testicles (see Medline articles 6210708 and 3583230). These studies have shown that such excessive HCG dosages taken long-term result in testicular desensitization (to future stimulation by LH or HCG). In other words, long-term, such excessive dosages of HCG will result in primary hypogonadism!''


the quote about hcg is taken from here...Finally a Testosterone Replacement For Men Using HCG in Functional Medicine

[MC30]

My understanding is that clomid modulates estrogen so in some areas will receive more estrogen, nolva will block all areas so they are more effective together. Thanks for the hcg info, protocol is supposed to not be long enough to desensitize the leydig cells, but i do not think hcg is necessary. There is more info on nolva/clomid combo if you search Dr Scally protocol. 150 clomid is too much for me

[powerlifterty16]

i thought they both blocked receptor sites(estrogen) so the body sees the lack of estrogen and sends out more lh to increase test which will convert into estrogen.

another side of clomid is bad vision which is why i've heard to keep it under 50 mg per day. I was actually going to to do a research trial with a drug called androxal which is a new clomid drug but they said i could get cataracts.

[MC30]

In my research all serms have vision side effects, when they occur you have to cut the dose or stop it. Here is a link for protocol. Just google search cant post whole link.

uk muscle co uk steroid-testosterone-information famous-power-pct-program-dr-michael-scally

[MC30]

Hmmm.. No estrogen monitoring needed? He must not be aware that you took clomid? It binds estrogen receptors. Basically tricks pituitary into releasing more LH so I would argue it is relevant. How were the mood swings?

Hey Peer, I have started on clomid again last week, so far the results are not as good as last time. Before I was taking higher doses once a day. This time I have been taking 50mg twice a day. These are my latest labs before this pct. Doc didnt do LH, FSH. Thank you.

ESTRADIOL (E2) 8.8 (4.6-42.6)

ESTROGENES 36 (40-115)

DHEA 188 (31-701)

Testosterone 172 (348-1197)

SBHG 14.6 (16.5 -55.9)