HCG diminished returns: 3 months on TRT

[Ccdiesel]

Guys,

I've been on TrT for 3 months now. Getting concerns on whether I should continue. Protocol has included HCG at 1000 iu a week, 250 EOD along with 200mg test. My concerns are fertility at 27 and right now testicular atrophy is significant even with HCG. Raisin. The dose does not seem like an option. So obviously this has my fear flaring.

Recent bloodwork did yield estrogen levels well above where I need to be. I know that is causing issues but I do not think it affects testicular size. Or am I wrong?

If I am that concerned with fertility should I reconsider trt or am I over thinking? Assuming I was fertile at the start.


Also could it be that the premixed HCG that is shipped to me is not as potent as it should be?

[jomamma007]

250 EoD should be keeping the boys plump, are you primary?

[Ccdiesel]

That's what you would think. I didn't start noticing the decrease in size until the end of month 3 along with the high E2 sides. No secondary.

[TraceMYD]

Go freeze some sperm and get it banked as a back up.

Also, my sperm count was low before getting on TRT.

About a year after I started TRT along with HCG, I still got my lady preggy.

Don't forget That even if you are fertile, It takes two and a bunch of factors and timing to get someone preggy that may be out of your control.

[Ccdiesel]

Go freeze some sperm and get it banked as a back up.

Also, my sperm count was low before getting on TRT.

About a year after I started TRT along with HCG, I still got my lady preggy.

Don't forget That even if you are fertile, It takes two and a bunch of factors and timing to get someone preggy that may be out of your control.

Thanks. Should I go through a urologist? I just don't know if over time I will become less and less fertile due to treatment. I have not seen any good information on long term. If I can maintain fertility through HCG and dosing I think I would continue treatment.

[Test Rage]

Chances are your HCG is loosing its potency. HCG is best kept refrigerated for 30-45 days tops after being reconstituted.

Either that or you are going primary which really would suck because your testicles are responsible for creating and regulating more than a dozen hormones.

As a minimum, Primary guys need to supplement with Pregnalone and DHEA. More Pregnalone is created by the testicles than testosterone itself. However, Primary Hypogonadism is not very common and your Leydig cells would not be subject to desensitization at the HCG dosage you described to me.

I would put my money on that you have HCG that has been degraded.

[Ccdiesel]

Chances are your HCG is loosing its potency. HCG is best kept refrigerated for 30-45 days tops after being reconstituted.

Either that or you are going primary which really would suck because your testicles are responsible for creating and regulating more than a dozen hormones.

As a minimum, Primary guys need to supplement with Pregnalone and DHEA. More Pregnalone is created by the testicles than testosterone itself. However, Primary Hypogonadism is not very common and your Leydig cells would not be subject to desensitization at the HCG dosage you described to me.

I would put my money on that you have HCG that has been degraded.

I would sooner say degraded HCG. Which was my original concern as atrophy was occurring and they shipped it to me at a higher temp than required. It's probably not hard to damage the HCG.

How could you develop a primary issue?

[Test Rage]

Direct damage to testes,
testicular cancer,
testes are out of commission from being shutdown from trt or blasting and cruising for too long,
some speculate that extreme high doses of HCG or very high doses for extended periods of time can down-regulate lyedig cells which could take years for your testicles to normalize. This I do believe is true but definitely anybody running less than 1500 a week is safe.

With Primary, LH and FSH are normal but test and sperm production is low. In some cases LH and FSH are normal and test may even still be normal but sperm is low.

These are all possibilities but I don't know anyone who is Primary. Im sure there are some but much less frequently than Secondary.

Did it ship to you already constituted?

[Ccdiesel]

Okay so I am aware of the possible loss of sensitivity, but some studies have said the opposite as well so either is a possibility. I have only had physical changes as a result of treatment and LH FSH are .1 and .2 respectively so I am shutdown. I was originally secondary.

I guess I didn't think of it like that but treatment can make you primary depending on how you respond.

They did ship it mixed

[Test Rage]

Okay so I am aware of the possible loss of sensitivity, but some studies have said the opposite as well so either is a possibility. I have only had physical changes as a result of treatment and LH FSH are .1 and .2 respectively so I am shutdown. I was originally secondary.

I guess I didn't think of it like that but treatment can make you primary depending on how you respond.

They did ship it mixed

I get mine in powder form and constitute it myself. If it was already constituted, then im about 95% sure that is your problem. It only makes sense statistically that your problem is not your balls. I wouldnt worry and just make sure your stuff doesnt get more than 4-5 weeks old (assuming you have it refrigerated.)

1000iu a week is in the safe zone. I know a few guys that have been on HCG monotherapy instead of TRT and it has kept there levels in upper end of normal for 6 years for one guy and 3 years for another. One of them impregnated their wife while on HCG for over a year. HCG keeps you fertile. If you want to make a kid also get your hands on HMG as it acts more specifically as a synthetic FSH and will really kick sertoli cells into sperm mode. Just alot more expensive.

What do your levels look like. Im sure with 200mg test and 1000iu of HCG you are right at the top if not well above upper level.

What do you do for estrogen management?

HCG is really needed in TRT in my opinion for its overall effectiveness and your long term health. Otherwise Pregnalone and DHEA deficiency will most likely take place after some time.

[EZ E]

After 3 years on trt, which included 250iu of hcg 3x per week, I got my wife pregnant the second month we were trying. If you have trouble when the time comes the there are other things you can try like HMG.

[Ccdiesel]

I get mine in powder form and constitute it myself. If it was already constituted, then im about 95% sure that is your problem. It only makes sense statistically that your problem is not your balls. I wouldnt worry and just make sure your stuff doesnt get more than 4-5 weeks old (assuming you have it refrigerated.)

1000iu a week is in the safe zone. I know a few guys that have been on HCG monotherapy instead of TRT and it has kept there levels in upper end of normal for 6 years for one guy and 3 years for another. One of them impregnated their wife while on HCG for over a year. HCG keeps you fertile. If you want to make a kid also get your hands on HMG as it acts more specifically as a synthetic FSH and will really kick sertoli cells into sperm mode. Just alot more expensive.

What do your levels look like. Im sure with 200mg test and 1000iu of HCG you are right at the top if not well above upper level.

What do you do for estrogen management?

HCG is really needed in TRT in my opinion for its overall effectiveness and your long term health. Otherwise Pregnalone and DHEA deficiency will most likely take place after some time.

Doctor is telling me HCG constituted is good for a year. I doubt it, I think they are covering. This stuff is beyond 6 weeks old and was shipped to me like that. Even the exp date says jan of 2014.

My test levels did get high, and estrogen. 1400 and 60 respectively which estrogen can have numerous negative effects but I don't believe testicular atrophy is one of them.

I agree HCG is necessary and I don't like not knowing or having faith in these pharmacy's.

[Ccdiesel]

After 3 years on trt, which included 250iu of hcg 3x per week, I got my wife pregnant the second month we were trying. If you have trouble when the time comes the there are other things you can try like HMG.

Thanks for the response. I have heard stories like that, and it does instill more confidence in HCG. I'm going to run what I have through a local pharmacy and see what they say.

[Black]

Instead of starting another thread, I'll keep this one going, since it's close to the topic.

When I first started HCG therapy, everything I read said to keep lypholized HCG in a dark place, around room temperature. My doctor also said to store it this way.

Now I get my HCG from a different pharmacy. I stored the vials the same as before. I started to notice a little testicular atrophy and less of a mood boost after I went through a couple vials. Now, I happened to pull out the information insert and it says to store lypholized freeze-dried powder at 2-8 degrees C.

So should HCG ALWAYS be store in the fridge (before and after reconstituting)? Kind of pisses me off to think of all that HCG was wasted and I wasn't benefiting from it.

[NEFLRick]

Instead of starting another thread, I'll keep this one going, since it's close to the topic.

When I first started HCG therapy, everything I read said to keep lypholized HCG in a dark place, around room temperature. My doctor also said to store it this way.

Now I get my HCG from a different pharmacy. I stored the vials the same as before. I started to notice a little testicular atrophy and less of a mood boost after I went through a couple vials. Now, I happened to pull out the information insert and it says to store lypholized freeze-dried powder at 2-8 degrees C.

So should HCG ALWAYS be store in the fridge (before and after reconstituting)? Kind of pisses me off to think of all that HCG was wasted and I wasn't benefiting from it.

If it's in powder form, you don't need to keep in the fridge. Once you've reconstituted it, you should store it in the fridge.

There is a misconception it will be no good 30-45 days after you've reconstituted it. This isn't necessarily true. In fact, it is good for (at least) 60 days and then starts to lose a little potency (not a lot). But you may have to adjust dosage appropriately.

You can test your HCG with a pregnancy test (get them from the dollar store for a buck). If it tests positive, it's still active although, if it gets too old, it may not be quite as strong.

HCG isn't as fragile as most think.

[Caribeman]

In fridge after reconstituting. Have you had BW since this issue started? LH reading should give a clue...

[2Sox]

This is very interesting thread.

TestRage, I think you made some very important, clearly made points.

To reiterate: It is not necessary to refrigerate freeze dried hCG or other serums. (But if you feel comfortable doing so, go for it.) They are already bacteriostatic and since there is no moisture, they cannot spoil. From my knowledge, expiration dates on these vials are merely a legal requirement - although I wouldn't keep this stuff around for five or ten years!

Cc,
I believe you are smart in doubting the pharmacy that is supplying you with reconstituted hCG. You can't possibly know how long it's been around before you receive it or if it has been properly stored. Unless you have a long term relationship with your pharmacist, and have established trust - which many have - I'd advise you go elsewhere to purchase your hCG.

Many on the forum purchase their hCG very cheaply, overseas. I do. Costs me roughly $23 per 5000iu vial. If you'd like to know where I get mine from, shoot me off a PM.

This topic has been discussed often on other threads. From what I can remember, even after 90 days, reconstituted, hCG is still over 96-97%% potent. In my view, at this percentage, your stones couldn't tell the difference one way or another.

By the way, I'm still using freeze dried hCG that expired this past October. Can't tell the difference.

[EZ E]

Pregnancy tests look for hcg so even if it was 95% of normal strength it would still result in a positive test so it isn't useful in determining potency.

[Black]

In fridge after reconstituting. Have you had BW since this issue started? LH reading should give a clue...

Started trt and hcg therapy in 2009. LH reading has always been <0.1. I was told by my doctor that this will always be the case because I'm taking synthetic test.

[Ccdiesel]

This is very interesting thread.

TestRage, I think you made some very important, clearly made points.

To reiterate: It is not necessary to refrigerate freeze dried hCG or other serums. (But if you feel comfortable doing so, go for it.) They are already bacteriostatic and since there is no moisture, they cannot spoil. From my knowledge, expiration dates on these vials are merely a legal requirement - although I wouldn't keep this stuff around for five or ten years!

Cc,
I believe you are smart in doubting the pharmacy that is supplying you with reconstituted hCG. You can't possibly know how long it's been around before you receive it or if it has been properly stored. Unless you have a long term relationship with your pharmacist, and have established trust - which many have - I'd advise you go elsewhere to purchase your hCG.

Many on the forum purchase their hCG very cheaply, overseas. I do. Costs me roughly $23 per 5000iu vial. If you'd like to know where I get mine from, shoot me off a PM.

This topic has been discussed often on other threads. From what I can remember, even after 90 days, reconstituted, hCG is still over 96-97%% potent. In my view, at this percentage, your stones couldn't tell the difference one way or another.

By the way, I'm still using freeze dried hCG that expired this past October. Can't tell the difference.

Pm sent. I appreciate the info and the offer. Constituting my own would help control the potency.