Having trouble losing losing fat while maintaining muscle

[jashim]

On the 7th of January I was 85.8kg, 18.2kg fat (21%), 67.6kg fat free

I wanted to lose fat while trying to maintain as much of my muscle and strength as possible. I had tried a protein sparing fast before but it was disastrous, I was losing too much strength. My goal this time was lose fat slowly, about 1.5lb per week for 16 weeks.

Diet: 2161 calories/day 47% protein 253.2g, 24% fat 57g, 29% carbs 158.9g
Program: 5/3/1 with light bodyweight accessory work, jog 2.5 miles 3x/week

On the 10th of February I had a DEXA scan and my results were disappointing.

DEXA scan:
Total body weight:85.8kg -> 79.6kg
Fat mass: 18.2kg (21%) -> 16kg (20.1%)
Fat free mass: 67.6kg -> 63.6kg

I know some of my fat free mass lost was water + glycogen but 4kg seemed like a lot to lose and I didn't lose as much fat as I had aimed for at only 2.2kg of fat lost.

I switched my diet up slightly to try and preserve muscle to 2254 calories 55% protein, 17% fat, 28% carbs.

It has been 2 weeks now and I am even weaker than I was before. I will wait to see what my next DEXA scan looks like but I feel like the results won't be promising.

I was advised by a friend to increase the fat content in my diet and do HIIT instead of jogging.

So I thought I would change my diet to this:
1986 calories: 223g protein, 73.2g fat, 109g carbs (45:33:22 ratio)
and do HIIT 3x/week instead of jogging

Any and all input would be appreciated. I am going to do another DEXA scan on Monday to see if I have lost any more fat free mass.

[tarmyg]

Could try a high fat diet. You will need the energy from somewhere.

~T

[hellomycognomen]

Replacing cardio with HIIT was a good move.

If you want to stimulate muscle growth you must also incorporate strength training routine.

"light bodyweight accessory work" may not cut it.

[jashim]

Is 5/3/1 not a strength training routine? Or not an adequate strength training routine for fat loss?

[Reiid13]

Can you tell us more about your training ?

Before you went to the scan how many times a week did you hit the gym how often do you go now ?

What do you do when you go ?
How often do you do cardio ?

Do you eat clean or do you eat what you want so long as its within your cals / macros ?

[jashim]

I've been getting DEXA scans once a month for the last year or so. The last program I did was Stronglifts 5x5 Advanced, but I plateaued on that, stopped gaining strength and started to put on more fat.

This is what I do now:
Monday: 531 OHP, Chins, Dips
Tuesday: 531 DL, Abs
Thursday: 531 BE, Chins, Pushups
Friday: 531 SQ, Abs

I failed a good portion of my prescribed sets this week so I will drop down to 90% next week. For example, my previous best on bench was 4x116kg but this week I failed after 2 reps at 110kg.

I was jogging 2.5 miles 3x a week but I will be changing to HIIT 3x week instead.

I changed my diet to have less calories, more fat but still trying to get adequate protein.
1947.6 calories: 225.4g protein, 75.2g fat, 105.8g carbs

I don't know if I eat "clean" or not, it's mostly protein shakes and milk which isn't the best, I know, but I work long office hours, sometimes 12-15 hour days, and live in a studio apartment without a kitchen so this is the only way I know how to get my calories practically through the day while keeping track of what my macros look like.

I will get another DEXA scan on Monday to see what things look like before I try this new diet and cardio for a month. I am hoping that I will have lost 2kg of fat and not much lean mass since my last scan and that the lean mass lost before was mostly glycogen and water.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

[jashim]

Got my DEXA scan today, lost a kilo of fat and a kilo of fat-free weight.
Total body weight: 79.6kg -> 77.7kg
Fat mass: 16.0kg -> 15.1kg
Fat free mass: 63.6kg -> 62.6kg

Not sure what this means. I feel like I shouldn't be losing that much fat free mass.

I'm going to try a month of my slightly modified diet, dropping my weights to 90% and doing HIIT on rowing machine 3x/week

[ironbeck]

Good luck man....keep trying you will reach your goals.

[jashim]

Thanks, buddy.

I might start logging my workouts here and how much I've kept to my diet. Is that okay or there a better part of the forum to do that?

[deltapapatango]

Its your thread. Interested on your plan. How much is a dexa scan going for?

[38onTRT]

In my city, they are telling me $99 Special for 2 scans whenever I want to do the 2nd..

Its your thread. Interested on your plan. How much is a dexa scan going for?

[jashim]

$70 for a scan

[Frankster83]

Where are ur carbs coming from. Try cycling them. Eating slow carbs with most meals and fast carbs right before you work out or do some physically demanding activity. Count them as the same though in your nutrition count

[jashim]

Carbs are coming from milk, mostly.

[jashim]

I'm going to start using this thread to keep a log.

3/3:
OHP: 5x57.5
Chins
Dips

4/3:
DL: 5x127.5
Abs

8/3:
BE: 5x95
SQ: 5x125
Chins
Pushups
Abs
HIIT Row machine

[Friesian]

So, your carbs are virtually all sugar? That's all wrong for a start. As fast digesting carbs, sugars should only be consumed at 2 times, first thing in the morning and immediately post workout. You really need to be getting your carbs from slow digesting sources other than that. Have you got a microwave in your apartment? If so, you could buy instant oats and mix them either with water or milk (time of day dependent) and cook them in there. Would be better with standard oats but if it's your only option...

[Docd187123]

So, your carbs are virtually all sugar? That's all wrong for a start. As fast digesting carbs, sugars should only be consumed at 2 times, first thing in the morning and immediately post workout. You really need to be getting your carbs from slow digesting sources other than that. Have you got a microwave in your apartment? If so, you could buy instant oats and mix them either with water or milk (time of day dependent) and cook them in there. Would be better with standard oats but if it's your only option...

I'm sorry I don't mean to call you out but this is an ignorant statement. There's much more to nutrition than the typical dogma espoused by the BB'ing industry and supplement companies (not talking about you here just society in general nowadays).

[Friesian]

I'm sorry I don't mean to call you out but this is an ignorant statement. There's much more to nutrition than the typical dogma espoused by the BB'ing industry and supplement companies (not talking about you here just society in general nowadays).

Fair enough, I admit my answer wasn't perfect, but instead of calling it ignorant, perhaps you could elaborate on your statement. I am talking based on my personal experience, I am not spouting the dogma of anyone other than myself. From my personal experience, sugars totally f**k my physique unless taken post-workout, and for the most part I keep them very low and to be honest, I generally don't even have sugars at breakfast.
OP, what works for you is what will work for you, so do what works, I am only suggesting adjustments.

[Docd187123]

Fair enough, I admit my answer wasn't perfect, but instead of calling it ignorant, perhaps you could elaborate on your statement. I am talking based on my personal experience, I am not spouting the dogma of anyone other than myself. From my personal experience, sugars totally f**k my physique unless taken post-workout, and for the most part I keep them very low and to be honest, I generally don't even have sugars at breakfast.
OP, what works for you is what will work for you, so do what works, I am only suggesting adjustments.

Fair enough. I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you when it was meant towards the general misunderstand of carbs. When I said dogma I meant bc it was the BB'ing/supplement community that started this IMO.

All carbs besides fiber get converted to glucose by the body. Fundamentally and physiologically all carbs are the same. The argument can me made for maybe fructose in that it can only replace glycogen in the liver not skeletal muscle but this is still not enough reason to limit the intake of fructose to any specific time. The same goes for simple sugars which is where I disagree. Fibers also get digested to some degree (estimates out it at ~2cal/gram) but doesn't affect blood glucose levels so it's different than basic and poly sugars.

This is where the argument gets made about GI but the GI scale was made with diabetics in mind and unless you're eating carbs in isolation in a fasted state, the GI is completely irrelevant. Protein, dietary fat, and fiber all slow down the digestion and blunt the forthcoming insulin response. Add to that with the fact that most ppl eat more than once daily so there is almost always continual nutritional overlap in between meals and you have even less of an issue with spiking insulin.

There's more reasons not to avoid simple sugars but I'm not sure why you're advocating against them exactly and that's the most common reason. I'm not sure how they could mess up your physique more than any other carbs? There is no biological difference between them when they get converted to glucose. If anything I think maybe you're talking about water retention? But even so, your body would eventually adapt to the fluid retention or you could drop the water weight in a matter of days if need be.

I'm not saying you just eat simple sugars, I'm simply saying there is no logical reason to go out of your way to avoid them if you want to include them in your diet. And personally, I have tried everything from low carb/keto to high carbs >400g simple carbs vs complex etc and there is no difference in fat mass or lbm. Water weight did fluctuate a bit. I've done the whole GOMAD thing as well, currently I drink around 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of milk a day and while that's not half of my carb intake neither affects my progress.

[hellomycognomen]

Fair enough. I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you when it was meant towards the general misunderstand of carbs. When I said dogma I meant bc it was the BB'ing/supplement community that started this IMO.

All carbs besides fiber get converted to glucose by the body. Fundamentally and physiologically all carbs are the same. The argument can me made for maybe fructose in that it can only replace glycogen in the liver not skeletal muscle but this is still not enough reason to limit the intake of fructose to any specific time. The same goes for simple sugars which is where I disagree. Fibers also get digested to some degree (estimates out it at ~2cal/gram) but doesn't affect blood glucose levels so it's different than basic and poly sugars.

This is where the argument gets made about GI but the GI scale was made with diabetics in mind and unless you're eating carbs in isolation in a fasted state, the GI is completely irrelevant. Protein, dietary fat, and fiber all slow down the digestion and blunt the forthcoming insulin response. Add to that with the fact that most ppl eat more than once daily so there is almost always continual nutritional overlap in between meals and you have even less of an issue with spiking insulin.

There's more reasons not to avoid simple sugars but I'm not sure why you're advocating against them exactly and that's the most common reason. I'm not sure how they could mess up your physique more than any other carbs? There is no biological difference between them when they get converted to glucose. If anything I think maybe you're talking about water retention? But even so, your body would eventually adapt to the fluid retention or you could drop the water weight in a matter of days if need be.

I'm not saying you just eat simple sugars, I'm simply saying there is no logical reason to go out of your way to avoid them if you want to include them in your diet. And personally, I have tried everything from low carb/keto to high carbs >400g simple carbs vs complex etc and there is no difference in fat mass or lbm. Water weight did fluctuate a bit. I've done the whole GOMAD thing as well, currently I drink around 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of milk a day and while that's not half of my carb intake neither affects my progress.

^^^^^

So Doc what is your opinion on macro percentage structure? What percent protein/carbs/fats do you recommend?

And in regards to the posted question when trying to lose body fat, do you cut calories evenly from all macros or do you drop percentage of a specific macro more than the others?

[Friesian]

Fair enough. I apologize for making it seem like I was attacking you when it was meant towards the general misunderstand of carbs. When I said dogma I meant bc it was the BB'ing/supplement community that started this IMO.

All carbs besides fiber get converted to glucose by the body. Fundamentally and physiologically all carbs are the same. The argument can me made for maybe fructose in that it can only replace glycogen in the liver not skeletal muscle but this is still not enough reason to limit the intake of fructose to any specific time. The same goes for simple sugars which is where I disagree. Fibers also get digested to some degree (estimates out it at ~2cal/gram) but doesn't affect blood glucose levels so it's different than basic and poly sugars.

This is where the argument gets made about GI but the GI scale was made with diabetics in mind and unless you're eating carbs in isolation in a fasted state, the GI is completely irrelevant. Protein, dietary fat, and fiber all slow down the digestion and blunt the forthcoming insulin response. Add to that with the fact that most ppl eat more than once daily so there is almost always continual nutritional overlap in between meals and you have even less of an issue with spiking insulin.

There's more reasons not to avoid simple sugars but I'm not sure why you're advocating against them exactly and that's the most common reason. I'm not sure how they could mess up your physique more than any other carbs? There is no biological difference between them when they get converted to glucose. If anything I think maybe you're talking about water retention? But even so, your body would eventually adapt to the fluid retention or you could drop the water weight in a matter of days if need be.

I'm not saying you just eat simple sugars, I'm simply saying there is no logical reason to go out of your way to avoid them if you want to include them in your diet. And personally, I have tried everything from low carb/keto to high carbs >400g simple carbs vs complex etc and there is no difference in fat mass or lbm. Water weight did fluctuate a bit. I've done the whole GOMAD thing as well, currently I drink around 1/4 - 1/2 gallon of milk a day and while that's not half of my carb intake neither affects my progress.

Thank you for your full explanation. I was not advocating against using them, more a controlled approach to their consumption. Whilst in the past I may have agreed with standpoint which is that, if I'm understanding you correctly, a carb is a carb. However, my personal experience has been otherwise. Across the last couple of years I have dropped approx. 70lbs of BF and I used to subscribe to the idea that a carb is a carb, and I'll admit, it worked. However, I tried changing to complex carbs throughout the day except post training and it worked better. I have at times gone back to eating from whatever carb source I saw fit and have always either plateaued or regained BF, but that is only my experience. I also find very little difference in water retention caused. Like I said to the OP though, I'm just talking in terms of my own experience, what works for me may be different for others.

[Docd187123]

^^^^^

So Doc what is your opinion on macro percentage structure? What percent protein/carbs/fats do you recommend?

And in regards to the posted question when trying to lose body fat, do you cut calories evenly from all macros or do you drop percentage of a specific macro more than the others?

Personally I don't work off percentages of total calories to calculate macros. I fill my minimum needs of the essential macros and fill the remaining calories with whatever macros I want for the day. I don't have set macros per se. One day maybe high carb while the next maybe low carb but higher fat. It varies greatly and it suits my lifestyle (I don't like to pack 4meals with me wherever I go, I don't like to cook 4days in advance and have bland food, I eat out frequently, I want different foods on different days, etc ).

Based on what I know, I set my intake according to my stats:
PRO: 1g/lb BW (~1.2g/lb LBM is slightly more accurate)
FAT: .3-.4g/lb BW

^^^these are sufficient to meet the body's minimum needs for survival and function and give you a decent margin of error. The remaining calories (after determine TDEE) can be filled with any macro or combo of macros of your choosing ie all carbs, some carbs with more protein, more fat and no carbs, etc. I try to keep carbs as high as possible to maintain intensity in the gym and this is where experimenting with your diet comes into play. Some perform better on high carb others need more fat. Some need to train fasted others train post-prandial state. Experiment and find what allows you peak performance in the gym.

Your second question depends on context. Generally to lose fat carbs are cut bc they're non-essential. The body is efficient at synthesizing glucose from protein or ketones. You would eventually die from lack of fats or protein but not carbs and that's why they're generally the first to be cut. Protein needs actually get higher as you get leaner so it's usually not a good idea to cut protein unless you're taking in excessive amounts. Fats usually can be reduced also (if you prefer higher carbs) but make sure no to drop them too low or eliminate them bc they are essential for hormonal prosecuting, overall health, etc. What I personally do is begin with a slight reduction in carbs. When I begin to stall I'll drop my fats to the minimum or slightly above. If I still need to cut I'll reduce carb intake further. My protein intake usually stays the same but that also depends on how low you have to drop your intake to.

Thank you for your full explanation. I was not advocating against using them, more a controlled approach to their consumption. Whilst in the past I may have agreed with standpoint which is that, if I'm understanding you correctly, a carb is a carb. However, my personal experience has been otherwise. Across the last couple of years I have dropped approx. 70lbs of BF and I used to subscribe to the idea that a carb is a carb, and I'll admit, it worked. However, I tried changing to complex carbs throughout the day except post training and it worked better. I have at times gone back to eating from whatever carb source I saw fit and have always either plateaued or regained BF, but that is only my experience. I also find very little difference in water retention caused. Like I said to the OP though, I'm just talking in terms of my own experience, what works for me may be different for others.

Is that you in your avi? If so congratulations on dropping the weight, you look great and should be proud of your accomplishments!

By 'regulating' your sugar intake you also typically regulate your energy intake unless you start to pig out on the other items you do eat. This is where the difference lies in your case (based only on what you've said so far). By minimizing simple sugars you normally take in less calories just bc you've restricted a certain food group. It's a correlation not cause and effect relationship meaning reducing sugars helped you lose the weight but it wasn't the cause, the concomitant calorie restriction was the cause. This is why the Atkins Diet, Zone Diet, Paleo, etc are so popular and effective....at first. They eliminate whole food groups which will almost always reduce the calorie intake but bc they often don't teach energy balance, many people stall out after the initial drop in weight/fat.

It makes sense with what we know know about physiology of the body and when you think about logically it holds true also: imagine using broccoli or donuts as your carb source. The former is not energy dense while the latter is very energy sense. It's easier to overeat on donuts than it is on broccoli. To get the same amount of carbs with broccoli as you would with donuts would require a much greater volume of broccoli which greatly affects satiety. This doesn't mean you can't have any donuts it just means you have to compensate in other aspects of your diet to get them to fit. I like to say everything in MODERATION. Now if you're one of those people who can't stop at just on bite or one serving then it may be easier to simply eliminate the food completely but that's an individualistic need not a generalized one.

Regardless, you've made progress and that's all that counts. Congrats once again brother.

[Friesian]

Yes, that's me. Thanks for your kind words.
I believe you may well be right about the whole energy regulation issue. Although I would ask your opinion on the fact the OP's only carb source being simple carbs from milk? Like you said, moderation is key, would it not be true then that some complex carbs being used to take the place of the aforementioned might be beneficial? Even if just to break up the monotony slightly.

[Docd187123]

Yes, that's me. Thanks for your kind words.
I believe you may well be right about the whole energy regulation issue. Although I would ask your opinion on the fact the OP's only carb source being simple carbs from milk? Like you said, moderation is key, would it not be true then that some complex carbs being used to take the place of the aforementioned might be beneficial? Even if just to break up the monotony slightly.

Yes you're right, he would probably benefit if he varied his carb sources (as with any macro) but not necessarily bc it'll have a direct impact on body comp nor do they necessarily have to be complex carbs. If he's lacking certain micros than complex carbs may be a better option as they normally have great micronutrient profiles. Oats for instance would help add fiber, broccoli would add tons of vitamins and minerals/antioxidants, etc. There a a few basic principles that all diets must adhere to to get results you desire. All the extra 'fluff' is personal choice. Meeting calorie and macro needs is arguably the biggest factor but consistency is up there as well. Your point on monotony is very important. I can't eat the same things day in day out without getting tired of them which breaks my diet. That is reason enough for me to get other sources for carbs but it may not be an issue for OP.

[Friesian]

Yes you're right, he would probably benefit if he varied his carb sources (as with any macro) but not necessarily bc it'll have a direct impact on body comp nor do they necessarily have to be complex carbs. If he's lacking certain micros than complex carbs may be a better option as they normally have great micronutrient profiles. Oats for instance would help add fiber, broccoli would add tons of vitamins and minerals/antioxidants, etc. There a a few basic principles that all diets must adhere to to get results you desire. All the extra 'fluff' is personal choice. Meeting calorie and macro needs is arguably the biggest factor but consistency is up there as well. Your point on monotony is very important. I can't eat the same things day in day out without getting tired of them which breaks my diet. That is reason enough for me to get other sources for carbs but it may not be an issue for OP.

I feel bad for hijacking the OP's thread like this but got a couple more questions. It's maybe going to sound a bit of a tenuous link but anyway. For me personally, it makes me feel psychologically better to consume complex carbs, whether this is a placebo effect I am unsure. But would this psychological boost perhaps turn into a physiological response in terms of hormones, in particular dopamine and seratonin, which would in turn help to inhibit cortisol, etc. and allow a possibly more productive state in which to train? Again, I base this wholly on how complex carbs affect me personally and my own perceptions.

[Docd187123]

I feel bad for hijacking the OP's thread like this but got a couple more questions. It's maybe going to sound a bit of a tenuous link but anyway. For me personally, it makes me feel psychologically better to consume complex carbs, whether this is a placebo effect I am unsure. But would this psychological boost perhaps turn into a physiological response in terms of hormones, in particular dopamine and seratonin, which would in turn help to inhibit cortisol, etc. and allow a possibly more productive state in which to train? Again, I base this wholly on how complex carbs affect me personally and my own perceptions.

Placebo is a powerful drug, it's why they have control groups in studies to take into account the effect of placebo .

About nutrition mediated serotonin response:

It can, but in a roundabout way. Unlike calcium-rich foods, which can directly increase your blood levels of this mineral, there are no foods that can directly increase your body’s supply of serotonin. That said, there are foods and some nutrients that can increase levels of tryptophan, the amino acid from which serotonin is made.

Eating a carbohydrate-rich meal will have your body trigger a release of insulin. This in turn causes any amino acids in the blood to be absorbed into the body except for tryptophan. It remains in the bloodstream at high levels following a carbohydrate meal, which means it can freely enter the brain and cause serotonin levels to rise.

Getting an adequate supply of vitamin B-6, which can influence the rate at which tryptophan is converted to serotonin.

APA Reference
Psych Central. (2008). Frequently Asked Questions about Serotonin. Psych Central. Retrieved on March 9, 2014

Another great read that has to do with neurotransmitter and obesity, there's a part two if you google for it:

Whole Health Source: The Case for the Food Reward Hypothesis of Obesity, Part I

And one more by Lyle McDonald:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...ession-qa.html

While diet can affect neurotransmitters in the brain the effect usually isn't as drastic as you may think. Protein for instance counteracts the affect of carbs on serotonin release. Again, moderation is normally the best bet. And if you're an otherwise healthy active individual your body will optimally regulate production of neurotransmitters as it needs to. Worrying about this IMO is akin to worrying about that 0.000001% and driving yourself crazy while forgetting the other 99.999999%.

Unless you have high cortisol levels, verified through blood work or saliva testing (and chronically high cortisol not one quick reading), there's no need to reduce cortisol levels. Just like insulin it's oftentimes misunderstood bc it has the nametag of being a catabolic hormone.

[jashim]

Thank you for your posts. I am taking it on board and will see how I go with my next DEXA scan, maybe change my diet up if I am not getting good results this month. If I need to, I can probably just take oats to work in a little Tupperware container and eat them raw with a bit of milk or yoghurt. Not very fun, but that might do the trick.

10/3
OHP: 3x60
Chins
HIIT

[Docd187123]

Thank you for your posts. I am taking it on board and will see how I go with my next DEXA scan, maybe change my diet up if I am not getting good results this month. If I need to, I can probably just take oats to work in a little Tupperware container and eat them raw with a bit of milk or yoghurt. Not very fun, but that might do the trick.

10/3
OHP: 3x60
Chins
HIIT

I've tried adding water to oats and microwaving them...tasted like shit IMO. If I want oats and can't cook them what I now do is make a protein shake and use milk. I'll add half a cup of oats to the whey and milk and let it sit in the fridge for about an hour to soften them up. While not the best it is palatable.

[jashim]

11/3

DL: 135x3
Abs

[jashim]

12/3

hiit

[jashim]

Weight seems to be coming down a little faster and my strength feels like it's stable.

13/3

BE: 100x4
Chins
Pushups
HIIT

[jashim]

15/3

SQ: 132.5x1 (failed set)
Abs
HIIT

[jashim]

16/3

hiit

[jashim]

18/3

OHP: 1x62.5
DL: 1x142.5
Chin-ups
HIIT

[jashim]

19/3

hiit

[jashim]

21/3

BE: 105x1+
SQ: 140x1+
Chins, pushups, abs

[Mrharoto]

I've tried adding water to oats and microwaving them...tasted like shit IMO. If I want oats and can't cook them what I now do is make a protein shake and use milk. I'll add half a cup of oats to the whey and milk and let it sit in the fridge for about an hour to soften them up. While not the best it is palatable.

Have you tried blending the oats up then adding in the protein and milk. Its not nearly as thick to drink and makes for a great meal replacement shake.

[jashim]

22/3

HIIT

25/3

OHP: Deload
DL: Deload
Chins, dips, abs

[jashim]

26/3

hiit

[jashim]

28/3

BE: Deload
SQ: Deload
Chins, pushups, abs

Next week I am beginning a new 531 cycle, I am increasing my weights on OHP, Bench and Deadlift but leaving Squats at the same weight

DEXA scan on the 28th:
Total body weight:77.7kg -> 74.4kg
Fat mass: 16.1kg (21%) -> 13.2kg (17.8%)
Fat free mass: 62.6kg -> 61.2kg

feels like I'm still losing fat too slowly while losing too much fat free mass

I am going to try upping my protein and calories a little bit while doing a little bit more HIIT

2054 calories: 252g protein, 70g fat, 102g carbs
3L7s