What's wrong w/ these T and E2 numbers? They too high? Says who?

[Kuriousjorj]

Some time I'll have to come here and list all the stuff I've done TRT-wise, to get to where I'm at. Might be educational for some.

Short version: I've been taking Clomid as TRT. It was prescribed me by a top TRT doctor. I did the 'Clomid challenge' using research chemicals, and since it was cheaper than a script, I kept on using research stuff, w/ the TRT doc's full knowledge. On several tests, my E2 kept going higher. Reduced Clomid to 15mg EOD (instead of ED). I tried Arimidex research chemicals from 2 different sources. Neither touched the E2. Went on Aromasin 12.5mg EOD, it brought E2 just under the upper normal limit. It also apparently raised my T. Tried taking Aromasin 12.5 mg ED. E2 wouldn't budge; even though it's technically 'normal,' it's still on the upper border.

Now here's another thing: each of these various blood works, I was supposed to report back to the TRT doc. But the dude was on vacation for the whole week literally every single time I called to report the results. So adding and subtracting and adjusting this and that, I did it all on my own. The Arimidex, then the Aromasin, etc. The last few tests had everything within range; T was high but in range, E2 was still high, but in range. So numbers-wise, everything should have been fine.


Here are my recent results:

T serum 1129, Range: 348-1197
T free 26.1, Range: 6.8 - 21.5 (high)

E2 41.5 Range: 7.6 - 42.6

When I finally got through to the TRT doc and reported all these 'backlogged' blood test results, including this last one (via his nurse) he apparently flipped out, said it was bad news, etc. So he put me on a slightly smaller dose of Clomid, took me off the Aromosin, and added a laughably small dose of Arimidex to the Clomid. (Clomid 10mg / Arimidex .1mg, EOD) All through their compounding pharmacy. (no more research chems)

So Arimidex (research chem) didn't work before at higher levels... Aromasin did... but that was somehow "bad," and I'm put back on a ridiculous low level of Arimidex?

I'll run this for 3 weeks. If my E2 goes back up, I'll probably leave this doctor.

Am I wrong? What was so 'bad' about my numbers above that warranted the change?

[lovbyts]

I dont see a reason for him to get all excited but I think his cutting you back is right to get your levels down a little. More is not better. It's also important, how did you feel?

All of these labs you had done what was the time frame between test? You mention reporting back and he was on vacation all week. These were not done all in one week were they? If yes I dont see how you/they could tell if an AI was working or not in such a short time-frame.

[J DIESEL3]

Hey Kurious ask your doctor if you could get a Estradiol Sensitive test next time.I believe the one you got was just the regular Estradiol test.

I have taken them both at the same time through Lab Corp 3 or 4 times. The reason I took both was Life Extension only offered the reg Estradiol on the set blood tests I ordered and had to add
the Sensitive test. Anyway on the regular Estradiol lab 7.6- 42.6 I came in at like 38.5 and on my Sensitive e2 test I was only at 17!! scale was 3-70. i have been at the top of the regular Estradiol test many times and came in below 20 on the E2 Sensitive test.

But the most important thing is like Lovbyts asked how do you feel? Maybe a Lovbyts or another vet could shed some light on both tests.

[Kuriousjorj]

Thanks for the fast response!

I dont see a reason for him to get all excited but I think his cutting you back is right to get your levels down a little. More is not better. It's also important, how did you feel?

All of these labs you had done what was the time frame between test? You mention reporting back and he was on vacation all week. These were not done all in one week were they? If yes I dont see how you/they could tell if an AI was working or not in such a short time-frame.

Is there a risk at having 'topped out' levels?

I'm extremely active, eat healthy, et etc etc. Walk around at about 12% BF (that's via bod-pod -- calipers put me at 9%), do a lot of heavy lifting, as well as anaerobic work, etc. Point is, if I don't' deserve to be at the upper end of the 'normal' scale, who the hell does?

As for how I feel... ugh, that's a tough one. I've been living with insane amounts of stress over the last couple years that would crush Atlas' shoulders. Haven't slept a good 8hrs in years. So it's hard to say if I felt better. TBH, no, not really. Not better, or worse. (and yes, my Cortisol is always high -- but I'm often going low-carb, PSMF, all kinds of fat burning tricks (cold thermogenesis for example), along w/ ECA stacks etc etc etc, so on top of stress, no wonder high Cort) I kinda wish I'd tried T injections instead of Clomid, just to see if there was any behavioral/psychological/mental difference compared to Clomid.

No, the various tests I had done, both comprehensive and just the T/E2 ones, were usually 3-4 weeks apart. Had 4-5 of them in total IIRC. (so we're talking around 4 months or so, since reacting well to the Clomid challenge, then using it, and Adex / Stane, (and DIM and DAA for a while) as my TRT.)
But since I could never get a hold of the TRT doc, and I sure as hell wasn't gonna wait around w/ E2 at 80 (top range 41), that's when I started doing my own thing, including switching from Adex to Stane... which seemed to work.

[jimmyinkedup]

I THINK THOSE NUMBERS LOOKED PRETTY DAMN GOOD PROVIDED YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE WAS GOOD. i WOULDNT HAVE CHANGED A DAMN THING. (sorry about caps - to lazy to go back and fix lol)

[Kuriousjorj]

Hey Kurious ask your doctor if you could get a Estradiol Sensitive test next time.I believe the one you got was just the regular Estradiol test.

I have taken them both at the same time through Lab Corp 3 or 4 times. The reason I took both was Life Extension only offered the reg Estradiol on the set blood tests I ordered and had to add
the Sensitive test. Anyway on the regular Estradiol lab 7.6- 42.6 I came in at like 38.5 and on my Sensitive e2 test I was only at 17!! scale was 3-70. i have been at the top of the regular Estradiol test many times and came in below 20 on the E2 Sensitive test.

But the most important thing is like Lovbyts asked how do you feel? Maybe a Lovbyts or another vet could shed some light on both tests.

Actually, I think that's what he ordered -- the sensitive test -- for my next test after putting me on this weakened Clomid/Adex compounded pill.

And you're right -- life extension doesn't offer it... so I gotta go through labcorp directly? Aint even done that before. Ugh. Don't know if I need the TRT doc's order, don't know if insurance will be it, etc.

TBH, I almost feel like saying PHUCK IT, and just going back to my own methods, using research chems, which are cheaper, self-administer and self-monitor, and allow me to keep everything topped off. Sick and tired of overly cautious, dogmatic 'experts' approach to things.

[Kuriousjorj]

I THINK THOSE NUMBERS LOOKED PRETTY DAMN GOOD PROVIDED YOUR QUALITY OF LIFE WAS GOOD. i WOULDNT HAVE CHANGED A DAMN THING. (sorry about caps - to lazy to go back and fix lol)

That's what I was thinking!!!

TBH, they're almost PERFECT! Like literally topped off on all accounts.

Though I do now wonder what my "real" E2 rating was all that time (i.e., sensitive test results, which I never got)


Something else I forgot to mention... I messed w/ Erase just before starting TRT. Both it (Erase) and Adex seem to give me the achy wrists, thumbs, etc. Not too bad, but noticeable. But Stane never did that. The only weird thing about Stane, taking 12.5mg EOD vs ED seemed to make no difference on E2 levels (again, not a sensitive test though). I also like that Stane pushes my free T up (thus apparently also keeps SBHG down)

[J DIESEL3]

No Life Extention WILL offer the sensitive test for sure.They just don't have the sensitive in the package deals of certain labs set up.They always just have the regular Estradiol test included in them..

Anyway just tell them you want the Estradiol sensitive and they will look it up no problem.

[2Sox]

I agree with Jimmy. Your numbers look excellent except for that E2 in the top range. IMO, if you are feeling good by self treating, and your doctor is making moves which will result in making you feel bad, I'd suggest you seriously consider cutting him loose and find a doctor who will work with you - and who will write for Testosterone. I know very little about Clomid but I don't know about the practicality of taking it for life. And for life is, well, a fact of life. Eventually you'll be on T so you may as well start looking at that fact now - and making long term plans.

I much prefer exemestane but it you're set on Adex, the site sponsor has good stuff. Stane is a little tougher to get but if you're interested, PM me.

[Kuriousjorj]

No Life Extention WILL offer the sensitive test for sure.They just don't have the sensitive in the package deals of certain labs set up.They always just have the regular Estradiol test included in them..

Anyway just tell them you want the Estradiol sensitive and they will look it up no problem.

Ok, thnx, will call them directly and see what it costs.

I've been doing most of this out of pocket, as IDK if insurance would even cover any of it, and don't feel like dealing w/ the hassle.

I think after I get a bunch of long overdo surgeries soon, I'm gonna let it drop anyhow. Phuck being forced to buy it.

[Kuriousjorj]

I agree with Jimmy. Your numbers look excellent except for that E2 in the top range. IMO, if you are feeling good by self treating, and your doctor is making moves which will result in making you feel bad, I'd suggest you seriously consider cutting him loose and find a doctor who will work with you - and who will write for Testosterone. I know very little about Clomid but I don't know about the practicality of taking it for life. And for life is, well, a fact of life. Eventually you'll be on T so you may as well start looking at that fact now - and making long term plans.

I much prefer exemestane but it you're set on Adex, the site sponsor has good stuff. Stane is a little tougher to get but if you're interested, PM me.

Well, like I mentioned above, the Clomid, despite raising T levels, I can't say I feel any better than before I sarted. Having said that, I'm so stressed, that in itself could be the problem.

As for Stane vs Adex, yes I also prefer Stane. Adex never worked before on me; it never brought down E2, all it did was give me achy joints.

If I don't like what I see in a few weeks (next blood test) I'm leaving that doc, after I give him a piece of my mind. These people don't seem to care about facts, new discoveries, individual responses, or N=1 reports like you read in places like here; all they seem to do is stick to their preconceived dogmas and beliefs, reality be damned.

The irony, is that this guy is supposedly a top name in the field. Then again, I've come to realize that having a big reputation in any given field doesn't necessarily mean jack shit.