Keeping gains after a cycle

[jackfrost88]

Hey so I have been seeing some videos / advice given out there that once you come off of gear you lose all your gains. Where did this idea come from out of curiosity? Clearly this is not the case from personal experience and many other people's stories, plus the fact that there is a study out there showing that steroid use increases the number of muscle fibers which remains even after you are off.

My question is: where did this idea come from? Why do some users claim that this is the case? Could it possibley be the case that some people are referring to heavy cycles when the user has naturally low testosterone and will obvious lose some of that extreme mass.

Could it be that some people stop training as hard / dieting when they are off because of the drop in energy and motivation? There seems to be a ton of anecdotal evidence that contradicts this claim and even on this forum there are people that show this is clearly not the case.

So what gives?

[Windex]

There isn't a black and white answer because there's tons of variables

- Diet before, during cycle, during PCT, and after PCT matters
- Training Intensity
- Nature of cycle (Dose, Compounds, duration, etc)
- Whether or not PCT was used and executed properly
- Genetics
- Injuries
- Whether the person is on TRT (this always trumps PCT)

It goes on and on. There will always be a yo-yo effect to some degree and everyone has a ceiling, otherwise we would have people at 500 lbs 5% bodyfat. As well, steroids have diminishing returns.

[ScotchGuard02]

I need to know more information. If you take dbol only for a few weeks it's possible that you could lose all or most of your gains as the water gains flushes from your system. If you run a 12 wk Test cycle and then eat like crap and stop working out after the cycle, ok, you could lose most of your gains.

I can't imagine any video worth it's salt saying that you'll lose all your gains if you continue to train and watch your diet after you come off your cycle. Just need a little bit more info about what videos you've been watching.

[Obs]

Once AAS has taken you outside your natural potential and you come off, you will eventually return to your natural max, even with perfect diet and training.

The plus side is you bounce back very fast due to muscle memory, on your next cycle.

As stated trt holds gains you wont keep without it but that is a marriage in and of itself.

There is always a possibility your htpa will not recover after a cycle. It is very slim chance but it is possible.

Blasting and crusing will trash your natural production for life almost guaranteed depending on how long you do it.

These are decisions the individual makes according to their goals. There is no going back sometimes.

Guys that think the want 20 or 30 lbs of lean mass and think they are gonna run a cycle or four and stop cold turkey will not maintain the gains. Inside a year in most cases they are right back like they were and could have gotten nearly as far training naturally imo.

I hope something here helps. Glad to have you here brother! Really think it over and may the life of iron bring you a full life and your goals!

[jackfrost88]

Thanks - I guess the gains i was referring to were lean muscle mass / strength gains and not water/glycogen storage which will obviously be lost. Speaking of muscle, there are a number of ex-bodybuilders / gear users on youtube which say that the muscle mass will be be completely lost after a cycle. This was the part I found hard to believe.

[Windex]

If you post the videos then we will have a better idea of what you are referring to.

[ScotchGuard02]

Thanks - I guess the gains i was referring to were lean muscle mass / strength gains and not water/glycogen storage which will obviously be lost. Speaking of muscle, there are a number of ex-bodybuilders / gear users on youtube which say that the muscle mass will be be completely lost after a cycle. This was the part I found hard to believe.

Let me pose a question. Really not trying to be a smartass. How many of us, on this board, do you think will continue to cycle if the net gains after every cycle was zero?

[Obs]

Let me pose a question. Really not trying to be a smartass. How many of us, on this board, do you think will continue to cycle if the net gains after every cycle was zero?

After one year off?

I personally do not understand why a serious BBwould cycle.

[AlphaMindz]

Thanks - I guess the gains i was referring to were lean muscle mass / strength gains and not water/glycogen storage which will obviously be lost. Speaking of muscle, there are a number of ex-bodybuilders / gear users on youtube which say that the muscle mass will be be completely lost after a cycle. This was the part I found hard to believe.

Not completely lost but over time your body cannot maintain gains achieved with AAS use without them, or AT LEAST a trt dose of test.

Younger guys and guys with higher natural levels will find it easier to hold onto muscle IF they can recover properly because the size and strength of their muscle is directly proportional to the hormone content in the body.

Diet and genetics are HUGE factors as well, but without the proper hormone content how can the body hold on to muscle built using supraphysiological levels of anabolic/androgenic hormones?

Individuals that built a solid foundation of muscle BEFORE getting on gear will hold onto a lot more muscle if staying off for extended periods of time. But like Obs mentioned, if you want to be a successful bodybuilder then I hate to be the bearer of bad news but any athlete worth mentioning does not "cycle", they blast and cruise and I recently learned that some DO come off completely BUT not for a long enough period of time to lose muscle, just long enough to let receptors up regulate so the binding affinity is refreshed as your body does build a tolerance over time.

[GearHeaded]

if your on gear for years and then you come off your NOT going to suddenly lose ALL gains. I'll explain with a few points, examples

- If for example a guy trains naturally for say 10 years and hits his genetic limit at say 30 years old (assume his diet, training, and recovery are spot on and perfected), and this guy then decides to jump on gear and trains on gear for another 5 years and makes all the gains associated with that. now lets say at year 36 (having 40 pounds more muscle then he had at 30) he decides to come off the gear and go back to being natural, but still continue on training with his perfected diet and training program. he is NOT suddenly going to go back down to the natty physique that he achieved at age 30. He will have permanent and maintainable Gains made from the 5 years of gear use. Yes he may lose 20 or so pounds of fullness, density, etc.. but he will not go back to his natty physique.

ok . so why would he not go back to his pure natty physique? because AAS use for extended times modifies your genetics and makes permanent changes to your body. AAS binds to receptors, communicates DNA and makes changes at the cellular level. again, some changes are very permanent.
heres some more examples and points

- When most people think of cells they think of basic cells with ONE nucleus . however muscle cells are multi-nuclei. not only do they have multiple nucleus, they have 'satellite cells' and the ability to make even more nucleus in a single cell. so lets say you start out as a natty with muscle cell 'b' having 4 total nuclei , and through training, diet, AAS use, etc.. that cell has evolved to now containing 12 total nuclei. that cell is NOT going to go back to having 4 nuclei just because you stop gear use. this becomes a permanent change.

- another example . lets say you ran gear for 10 years and now at age 35 your heart has enlarged 40% over its normal size. you then decide to come off of all the gear because of this. your heart is not suddenly going to go back to its normal size just because you got off the gear. Nope, the gear has made permanent structural changes within your cardiac musculature .. just like it can to your skeletal muscle with hyperplasia (creation of new cells) and, as I state above, the creation of new cell nuclei.

these are just the basics . a lot more can be said. but why do you think 'real' natural body building federations will not allow a guy to train for 5 years on AAS, come off for a year, claim natty, and then compete in the natty federation . its because gear makes permanent changes to your body and musculature and puts you beyond your genetic limit.


of course we have all seen or know of guys who been on gear, quit using it all together , heck even quit training hard and eating right and they turn to shit and lose their gains . this is a lifestyle 'change' and does not really equate or relate to the idea of losing gains from coming off gear or not.

[Testlolblast]

Well, people who have naturally normal testosterone levels and have never screwed them with an inappropiate steroid use no matter how heavy is a steroid cycle should always rely on a proper and the best suitable pct to keep the most of the gains. But those with naturally low testosterone levels or screwed up ones should better be on a good TRT, no matter if they ever plan to do a steroid cycle or not.

[AR's King Silabolin]

Clearly this is not the case from personal experience and many other people's stories, plus the fact that there is a study out there showing that steroid use increases the number of muscle fibers which remains even after you are off.


So what gives?

Think ur mixing growth with roids there bro

[jackfrost88]

if your on gear for years and then you come off your NOT going to suddenly lose ALL gains. I'll explain with a few points, examples

- If for example a guy trains naturally for say 10 years and hits his genetic limit at say 30 years old (assume his diet, training, and recovery are spot on and perfected), and this guy then decides to jump on gear and trains on gear for another 5 years and makes all the gains associated with that. now lets say at year 36 (having 40 pounds more muscle then he had at 30) he decides to come off the gear and go back to being natural, but still continue on training with his perfected diet and training program. he is NOT suddenly going to go back down to the natty physique that he achieved at age 30. He will have permanent and maintainable Gains made from the 5 years of gear use. Yes he may lose 20 or so pounds of fullness, density, etc.. but he will not go back to his natty physique.

ok . so why would he not go back to his pure natty physique? because AAS use for extended times modifies your genetics and makes permanent changes to your body. AAS binds to receptors, communicates DNA and makes changes at the cellular level. again, some changes are very permanent.
heres some more examples and points

- When most people think of cells they think of basic cells with ONE nucleus . however muscle cells are multi-nuclei. not only do they have multiple nucleus, they have 'satellite cells' and the ability to make even more nucleus in a single cell. so lets say you start out as a natty with muscle cell 'b' having 4 total nuclei , and through training, diet, AAS use, etc.. that cell has evolved to now containing 12 total nuclei. that cell is NOT going to go back to having 4 nuclei just because you stop gear use. this becomes a permanent change.

- another example . lets say you ran gear for 10 years and now at age 35 your heart has enlarged 40% over its normal size. you then decide to come off of all the gear because of this. your heart is not suddenly going to go back to its normal size just because you got off the gear. Nope, the gear has made permanent structural changes within your cardiac musculature .. just like it can to your skeletal muscle with hyperplasia (creation of new cells) and, as I state above, the creation of new cell nuclei.

these are just the basics . a lot more can be said. but why do you think 'real' natural body building federations will not allow a guy to train for 5 years on AAS, come off for a year, claim natty, and then compete in the natty federation . its because gear makes permanent changes to your body and musculature and puts you beyond your genetic limit.


of course we have all seen or know of guys who been on gear, quit using it all together , heck even quit training hard and eating right and they turn to shit and lose their gains . this is a lifestyle 'change' and does not really equate or relate to the idea of losing gains from coming off gear or not.

Good info, a lot of that stuff makes sense and clearly there are some long term benefits - especially if after a recovery you start another cycle. The notion of only short term gains which are quickly lost seems like an exaggeration and not sure where this belief came from

[jackfrost88]

Think ur mixing growth with roids there bro

Google steroid induced hyperplasia

[Aerospace]

Take testosterone forever (TRT), don't do PCT. Using performance enhancing drugs and then trying to return to natural homeostatis is really stupid. PCT is expensive and harsh on your body. It didn't exist until these online forums of broscience came around.