TRT Several years, Zero Sperm

[MICKY H]

Hi Guys, I'm 62 year old male, just had a sperm test and the results were zero. My partner has a child already but would like another, she 34. I understand Clomid and HCG will help in reversing and off course no more Test. Also does HGH have any positive or negative effect on sperm count as with Tren. The Dr said if worse come to the worse they can actually remove sperm from the testicles.Any advice would be really appreciated.

[Youthful55guy]

Hi Guys, I'm 62 year old male, just had a sperm test and the results were zero. My partner has a child already but would like another, she 34. I understand Clomid and HCG will help in reversing and off course no more Test. Also does HGH have any positive or negative effect on sperm count as with Tren. The Dr said if worse come to the worse they can actually remove sperm from the testicles.Any advice would be really appreciated.

Whether or not you choose to come off of TRT is a personal choice. You will have a much greater chance of conceiving than with continued use. I have read of some success with HCG while on TRT, but HCG has mainly LH activity with only limited FSH activity. You need both gonadotropins to produce sperm. Continuing the steroids will continue the negative feedback on the hypothalamus/pituitary and will prevent the production and release of natural gonadotropins. Clomid will help restore their production to a certain degree, but it's not a miracle drug.

We've discussed this topic in several recent forum strings, I suggest you scroll down and read them thoroughly. Regarding HMG, keep in mind that it's simply purified LH and FSH derived from the urine of post-menopausal women. Both gonadotropins have relatively short half lives, so you will need to inject frequently and the cost becomes astronomical when you factor in that it takes a minimum of 3-4 months for sperm to show up in the ejaculate while on these protocols and that the average time to conception is in the 9-12 month range of continued treatment. However, there is a high success rate....at a cost. I described one of the more common protocols in one of those forum strings. This is why I suggest you give up the steroids if you are serious about this. You should remove all the obstacles to speed things up and enhance your chance of success.

[MICKY H]

Whether or not you choose to come off of TRT is a personal choice. You will have a much greater chance of conceiving than with continued use. I have read of some success with HCG while on TRT, but HCG has mainly LH activity with only limited FSH activity. You need both gonadotropins to produce sperm. Continuing the steroids will continue the negative feedback on the hypothalamus/pituitary and will prevent the production and release of natural gonadotropins. Clomid will help restore their production to a certain degree, but it's not a miracle drug.

We've discussed this topic in several recent forum strings, I suggest you scroll down and read them thoroughly. Regarding HMG, keep in mind that it's simply purified LH and FSH derived from the urine of post-menopausal women. Both gonadotropins have relatively short half lives, so you will need to inject frequently and the cost becomes astronomical when you factor in that it takes a minimum of 3-4 months for sperm to show up in the ejaculate while on these protocols and that the average time to conception is in the 9-12 month range of continued treatment. However, there is a high success rate....at a cost. I described one of the more common protocols in one of those forum strings. This is why I suggest you give up the steroids if you are serious about this. You should remove all the obstacles to speed things up and enhance your chance of success.

Thanks, I will continue reading, the cost is irrelevant is the end result is positive

[64509chvl]

I started TRT back in 2013. Protocol I think at the time was 55mg 2x a week & 250iu HCG 2x a week. We tried for another child & it worked within 2 months! Very cool!

[Youthful55guy]

I started TRT back in 2013. Protocol I think at the time was 55mg 2x a week & 250iu HCG 2x a week. We tried for another child & it worked within 2 months! Very cool!

I've had communications with several guys with similar stories. I think the common denominator among them is that the successful guys were using standard TRT doses and no supplemental synthetic anabolic hormones. Many guys, like you, report only using 500 IU per week in split doses. Others as high a 1000 IU.

Even though HCG has predominately LH receptor binding activity it does have some FSH activity as well, just not as much. That is why combining HCG combined with clomid works. Clomid works at the hypothalamic level to inhibit E2 negative feedback. E2 is the most potent of the natural sex steroids for negative feedback control of GnRH release from the hypothalamus. Clomid is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) that binds to selective receptors in the brain but does not have any E2 activity, thus blocking the negative feedback. With E2 out of the control loop, pulsatile GnRH release resumes and that signals the pituitary to start producing and releasing both LH and FSH once again. FSH is needed to initiate spermatogenesis and LH (via locally high intratesticular testosterone levels) is needed to finish the job for final sperm cell maturation. The combined effect of HCG + LH + FSH is often enough to break through normal TRT inhibition of the HPTA.

[MICKY H]

Hello

An update on my blood results, 2 months of TRT and taking HCG and Clomid

FSH 26.43 MLU/ML
LH 23.54 MLU/ML
TEST (ECLIA) 3.41 RANGE 2.80 - 8.00
ESTRADIOL (ECLIA) 20.41 RANGE 25.80 60.70

Any helpful insight would be grateful.

[Youthful55guy]

Hello

An update on my blood results, 2 months of TRT and taking HCG and Clomid

FSH 26.43 MLU/ML
LH 23.54 MLU/ML
TEST (ECLIA) 3.41 RANGE 2.80 - 8.00
ESTRADIOL (ECLIA) 20.41 RANGE 25.80 60.70

Any helpful insight would be grateful.

Hi Micky, I replied to a similar post in another thread. here's a copy/paste. However, I neglected to address the Libido problem you pointed out in the other thread. Can you be a little more specific as to the problem? Is it desire or ED?

I can see you T is at the lower end of the range and that could be part of the libido issue. Not a lot you can do about that if your goal is to maximize fertility. Layering in low level TRT might be helpful, but I would be concerned about negative feedback. It is also possible that your E2 is low because the main pathway for E2 synthesis in men is to start with T as a substrate. Normal levels of E2 are necessary for both libido and erections. It's one of those ironies of nature. that men also need what it typically thought of as a female hormone.

Personally, I'd stay away from TRT for now and stick with the current treatment and reach for the ED meds to help with the erections. Once you've conceived, you may want to consider going back onto TRT.

Copy/Paste from other String
Agree with Cylon. It is important to know the "normal" ranges of LH and FSH for the laboratory that tested them and the time of day the blood was drawn. It's best to draw as soon as possible when the lab opens and to be consistent in timing from lab to lab. I've only had LH/FSH labs once and the normal range for my laboratory was 1.5-9.3 for LH (not sure of the units) and 1.5-18.1 for FSH. So if that is any indication of your laboratory, I'd say you are well on the way to your goal of fertility.

Also keep in mind that regaining fertility is a long process. It takes about 3 months for sperm cells to mature and make their way into the ejaculate. In a couple studies I've read on fertility treatments, the mean time to conception is between 9-12 months after initiation of treatments.

[MICKY H]

Thanks for your replies

The ranges FSH 26.43 MLU/ML Male : 1.50 ~ 12.40
LH 23.44 MLU/ML Male : 1.70 ~ 8.60

I totally out of the ranges.

Any ideas guys

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks for your replies

The ranges FSH 26.43 MLU/ML Male : 1.50 ~ 12.40
LH 23.44 MLU/ML Male : 1.70 ~ 8.60

I totally out of the ranges.

Any ideas guys

You certainly are well on the way to fertility with those FSH/LH levels. Perhaps you could consider cutting back on the clomid dose. I've found that clomid messes with my ability to perform but others don't seem to be bothered by it.

I see your E2 levels in the above post now. I must have missed them the first time reading it. Your E2 is low but not so low that I would suspect it as the main cause of the ED issues. I suspect it has more to do with the low T levels and hence the lack of conversion to DHT, which is the main hormone that drives libido. I assume you are not on Finasteride treatment. Right? If so, that's the first thing that should go. Probably not, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

What's your HCG dose? Perhaps you might consider increasing it to bump up the T and thus conversion to E2 and DHT to drive libido and help with the ED.

Are you taking an ED med? If not, Cialis can help a lot but not with the non-ejaculation problem. That I suspect is more of a low E2/DHT issue.

Another treatment for ED you may wish to consider is PT-141. Since it works at the brain level, it is synergistic with the ED meds which work at the penis level. In other words, PT-141 helps to boost the erection signal from the brain and ED meds help to magnify the response in the penis. PT-141 is readily available through numerous peptide distributers as a "research chemical". You also need to mix it up with sterile preserved saline and inject it subcutaneously. However, the mixing is easy and volumes are very small so it can be done with an insulin syringe.

For me the biggest downside of PT-141 is that it works too well and I get unrelenting nocturnal erections when I sleep as a side-effect. They are so intense that they actually wake me up and I feel like I have to pee, but aiming is near impossible, so it gets quite messy. Yes, TMI, but it's a real side effect (for me anyway) and you should be aware of it. I rarely use it anymore now that I have my hormone program under tight control but when I did, I found that 0.5mg (500mcg) was the maximum dose I could use, but you'd probably want to start at half that to see if you are sensitive to side-effects. Some guys experience nausea but I do not. Some guys also claim that it helps stimulate a desire but I think that has more to do with getting random spontaneous erections throughout the day. My experience is that it takes about 4 hours to begin to feel it and the effect can last as long as 48 hours but it peaks at about 8-10 hours and then begins to subside gradually.

[MICKY H]

Youthful55guy

Its hard to maintain an erection for more than 5 mins and ejaculation is problematic plus the desire has gone.

[MICKY H]

Thanks Youthful55guy.

I take daily Cialis which was being taken more for the athletic advantages and health.

My HCG is 2500 twice a week.

I have HGH, but not using, would this help.

I have read about PT-141 and was going to purchase today, Im currently in Bangkok.

No I'm not on Finasteride, never heard of it.

Maybe cut my Clomid for a few weeks and see what happens

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks Youthful55guy.

I take daily Cialis which was being taken more for the athletic advantages and health.

My HCG is 2500 twice a week.

I have HGH, but not using, would this help.

I have read about PT-141 and was going to purchase today, Im currently in Bangkok.

No I'm not on Finasteride, never heard of it.

Maybe cut my Clomid for a few weeks and see what happens

Dose of daily Cialis? If 2.5mg, consider boosting to 5mg and then supplementing with additional 10mg several hours before any planned sexual activity. Important not to drink alcohol while on Cialis. I find it magnified the headache side-effect and interferes with erections. To quote Shakespeare, " it provokes the desire, but it takes away the performance" (Macbeth: Act 2 Scene 3).

That's a lot of HCG! No need to increase the dose. I don't think it's doing any harm, but it's quite expensive. Studies show that 1000 IU per week while on TRT is enough to regain normal testicular function for producing testosterone. You might want to consider breaking it up into 3X per week injections. The half-life is 24 to 36 hours.

I don't think HGH will help. Not sure if it will hurt either. I have very little experience with it.

I'd consider a trial of PT-141 if you can get it in Bangkok. It definitely works for me, but I only use it recreationally.

Good that you are not using finasteride which is a drug used to treat BPH and hair loss by interfering with the conversion of T to DHT.

A trial of lower (or no) clomid might be useful. You certainly have a lot of LH/FHS in your system now. I am surprised that T levels are not higher at that level of LH you have on your current level of clomid. Beginning to wonder if there might be some primary hypogonadism going on. Your next seaman analysis will be telling. Keep in mind not to expect much of a sperm response until after about 4 months of therapy.

[MICKY H]

Taken note on your Cialis.

Could not get PT-141 but purchased Melanotan 11 which I believe is similar.

Get my next semen test done in 2 weeks, so hopefully better news.

Thanks for the advice

[Youthful55guy]

Taken note on your Cialis.

Could not get PT-141 but purchased Melanotan 11 which I believe is similar.

Get my next semen test done in 2 weeks, so hopefully better news.

Thanks for the advice

PT-141 is a derivative of Melanotan 2. Spontaneous erections were noted as a side-effect in clinical trial of Melanotan 2 and they then developed PT-141 as a more potent drug specifically designed for ED. Unfortunately, the drug has been stalled in the approval process. So, yes Melanotan 2 might help but keep in mind that it may cause increased pigmentation if used too much. I've actually experienced this with PT-141 when I did a low dose daily trial of the drug. People started making unsolicited comments on my tan. I discontinued the low dose daily trial, not only because of the tanning side-effect, but also because I noted that it lost effectiveness after a couple of weeks. I've heard others post on this too, that it needs to be reserved for occasional use when the likelihood of sexual activity is highest so that you don't become refractory to the drug. The good news is that after a month break, it seemed to work well again for occasional use. That's how I use it now, recreationally and just at rare times when I am certain that a sexual encounter is going to happen, which after 25 years of marriage doesn't happen near enough!

Here's an abstract of a study I found on a clinical trial of Melatonan 2. Pretty impressive results. 80% of the men with psychogenic ED (problem in erection signal from the brain and not a penis blood supply problem):

Synthetic melanotropic peptide initiates erections in men with psychogenic erectile dysfunction: double-blind, placebo controlled crossover study.
Wessells H1, Fuciarelli K, Hansen J, Hadley ME, Hruby VJ, Dorr R, Levine N.

Abstract
PURPOSE:
We evaluated the erectogenic properties of a new cyclic alpha-melanocyte-stimulating hormone analogue, Melanotan-II, to treat men with psychogenic erectile dysfunction.

MATERIALS AND METHODS:
Ten men with erectile dysfunction of no known organic cause were entered in a double-blind, placebo controlled crossover study in which the erectogenic properties of Melanotan-II and a vehicle placebo were compared using real-time RigiScan monitoring. The presence, duration and rigidity of erections were recorded during a 6-hour period.

RESULTS:
In 8 of 10 men treated with Melanotan-II clinically apparent erections developed. Mean duration of tip rigidity greater than 80% was 38.0 minutes with Melanotan-II and 3.0 with placebo (p=0.0045). Transient side effects of nausea, stretching and yawning, and decreased appetite were reported more frequently after injections of Melanotan-II than placebo but none required treatment.

CONCLUSIONS:
Melanotan-II is a potent initiator of erections in men with psychogenic erectile dysfunction and has manageable side effects at a dose of 0.025 mg./kg.

PMID: 9679884

[MICKY H]

Cylon357, Thanks for the feedback. I'm of to the clinic in 2 weeks so will speak about everything I have learnt here and post the feedback from he Doctor.

[MICKY H]

Thanks Y55G for all your help. Yes I used 20 units and confirm I got a good erection, but it lasted over 3 hours. I was getting worried lol. My wife was very happy for the first hour. But will order PT-141 online. Yes I noted a side effect was tanning, which is why I use only if anticipated.

[MICKY H]

Just let you guys know, gone from zero to hero. Did the test today and its good enough to be frozen for the future. Many thanks for the advice especially Y55G

[Youthful55guy]

Just let you guys know, gone from zero to hero. Did the test today and its good enough to be frozen for the future. Many thanks for the advice especially Y55G

Congratulations!

[yeahbuddy289]

Congratulations man! Happy for you!