Considering First Cycle, (Questions)

[FryingPanMan244]

Hello

So, i've never done a cycle before, and reading up here, and various other websites, it has come to my attention that i should be doing a Test only cycle for my first run... and this is OK... i understand the reasons why (understanding how my body reacts to the substance/elevated test levels etc) but i have some queries and concerns

First off my stats

Im 32

5ft 11"
161lbs
Bodyfat of 7%
Muscle mass of 57%
and blood pressure averages 96 over 59

Goal :

Looking to increase my lean Musclemass... it took me alot of hard work to loose my fat and gain the muscle i have already, so im not particularly interested in "Bulking" and "Cutting" cycles in the traditional sense, i would rather a slow gain of the leanest muscle mass possible

Diet isn't a concern as i run Keto usually and am very up to speed on clean nutrition and how to eat well

Concerns :

I suffered with Gyno when an adolescent growing up, so one thing i am concerned about is the aromatising of Test into oestrogen and thus reigniting my Gyno problem

Questions : ive read alot about folks using Nolvadex to stave off the Oestrogen issues from test and this is fine, however i have also read about the use of Mast for its anti-Oestrogen properties

so my main question is, on my first cycle would it be worth while adding Mast to it as well instead of a Test only in order to gain the benefits of its Anti-Oestrogen qualities as well as its ability to help build/maintain lean muscle... being as it is considered a "Mild" steroid, or just stick with the Test and have Nolvadex on hand

Any advice would be much appreciated i know you guys have alot of knowledge :-)

[Iranon]

Post some pics,no way you are 7% bodyfat.

5'11'' at 161lbs all you need is food and a solid training program, drugs are years away.

[FryingPanMan244]

Pics, as requested, i am indeed at 7% bodyfat... and food/training is what i have been doing

[SampsonandDelilah]

Don’t wanna bust your bubble, but you’re not close to 7%. Did you run calipers or a BF% machine? Regardless, looks like you’ve made some massive weight cuts and put on some muscle, congrats.
That aside, gyno control is going to be tough…you’re ripe for it. Low test and maybe some primo and mast would be a consideration. Could run an all test cycle and see how you do. Would run an AI alongside and monitor my bloodwork. Honestly though, your best bet is to stick with diet and exercise and hold off on running hormones. Best bet, would be to offer up your own cycle thoughts for critiques and put the time in reading about the compounds.

Thoughts on PCT as well?

[Iranon]

Pics, as requested, i am indeed at 7% bodyfat... and food/training is what i have been doing

I would have to see your lower back and hamstrings to make a call but by those pics you look closer to 11% or 12%. Body fat tests are usually 3-5% off.

Nolvadex to prevent gyno, test only and no need to go over 400mg a week and no longer than 12 weeks. If I were you I would run test prop at 100mg EOD for 10 weeks, with a proper PCT.


Good luck with your goals.

[s1nc1ty]

Maybe one opotion is trt lvl test + some other steroid that doesnt aromatize, like winstrol or anavar if you think gyno wpuld be an issue ?

[FryingPanMan244]

Hmm if im not at 7% or even anywhere near it, then the bodycomp scan,(which is a whole body scan machine) i took lied, thanks for the input though, and thanks for the positive comment i have worked very hard to get where i am

As for cycles it would be my first ever cycle, so everything i have read, (and i have been reading for months, and will continue to do so more before committing to anything) it suggests doing Test only, is that not the standard practice?

doing some research before finding advice on "Test only" cycles i was looking at doing a Test/Mast/Anavar or winstrol

8 Week cycle consisting of

Test-Cyp 200mg/Wk
Mast 300mg/Wk

and then maybe winstrol 25mg ED
or Anavar 30g ED

Switching to Test-P 75mg EoD on last 2 weeks

i don't know if i would need an AI with this

PCT wise, Starting 3 days after last injection of Test-P

HGC 350IU ED for first 10 days
from 2nd week of PCT 40mg Nolvadex ED for 2 weeks
From 4th week of PCT 20mg Nolvadex ED for 2 weeks

^the above is what i was considering... as per what i have read/research done into the kind of cycle i want and before i read about "Test only"

[SampsonandDelilah]

Your hard work is evident and like most guys the fat you do have rides in your lower abdomen, it’s how we’re built. I’m not trying to flame at all, the dexascans are historically inaccurate and as mentioned off by 3-5%. Regardless, excellent work and welcome to the forums. Great community here.

Ok good, you have been reading always happy to help those who have helped themselves. Test only is usually recommended too see how you react and avoiding multiple compounds to isolate what is causing any side effects.

With your history with gyno though it may be best to avoid compounds that aromatize…your proposal at that low of test may be I’ll advised because it’s more apt to just shut you down and not enough to promote growth. As mentioned, 400 is about as low as I’d go…would just be sure to have ancillaries on hand.

Less is more for the first go round, but could make the exception for mast (for its anti E abilities) and primo.

8 weeks is too short with cyp or enth (won’t kick in until week 4-6). Running prop would be your best bet due to faster onset and the ability to bail if sides come on. The more I think about it, the more that sounds like the right move.

Your history with gyno and your previous issues with BF% gives me pause as I haven’t had to deal with it. Maybe some guys who have dealt with gyno can jump in as well.

[FryingPanMan244]

Thanks for the advise, much appretiated, and yes ive done alot of reading and plan to do more

Interesting you say for Test-P instead of Enth/Cyp as that was my first idea before any deep reading took place, might go back to it...

thats what i was thinking, after reading i was going to go for a test only cycle the only issue i had was with the aromatising of it, hence why i was thinking of the exception of adding mast, due to its "Mild" nature and anti E, as well as having Nolva on hand throughout the cycle, as i would be using it for PCT anyway

the reason for a short 8 week cycle first was to see if i could handle it you know? as you say, less is more, start slow and all that

and i would love some further info from guys more Intune with the Gyno problem

[SampsonandDelilah]

Thanks for the advise, much appretiated, and yes ive done alot of reading and plan to do more

Interesting you say for Test-P instead of Enth/Cyp as that was my first idea before any deep reading took place, might go back to it...

thats what i was thinking, after reading i was going to go for a test only cycle the only issue i had was with the aromatising of it, hence why i was thinking of the exception of adding mast, due to its "Mild" nature and anti E, as well as having Nolva on hand throughout the cycle, as i would be using it for PCT anyway

the reason for a short 8 week cycle first was to see if i could handle it you know? as you say, less is more, start slow and all that

and i would love some further info from guys more Intune with the Gyno problem

Short esters allow you to abandon ship easier if problems arise, the issues can be maintaining steady levels and avoiding fluctuations…which just means more pinning. Not necessarily ideal on your first rodeo. It’s a push/pull trade off. Cypionate is my preferred ester but it takes a while to get up to speed, 8 weeks is absolutely too short for that ester. 12 is ideal and frankly if you’re continuing to make progress, I advocate taking it to 14 or even 16. It’s not cookie cutter as we all respond differently. We do our best anecdotally to lay out a plan but we all respond differently. Masteron is a great product, those that know me here know that I often sing it’s praises. The problem is it’s not very anabolic, it does ok at staving off estrogen and really has an aesthetic effect at lower BF %’s….it really shines as kind of a polishing drug when everything else is dialed in. I wouldn’t depend on it solely for estrogen control with your history. You could run a SERM (or have it on hand) but I’d be more inclined to say you should run an AI during cycle and save the SERM if you really run into troubles…there’s last resort options as well (letrozole for example).

It’s hard to avoid compounds that aromatize and still model the “test only for first cycle” school of thought. It’s a good one to follow though as you see how you react, build a foundation and add on compounds from there.

You obviously don’t want to crush your estrogen either as it’s important for muscle development, mood and sexual health. It can be a razors edge…at some point you just kind of have to take a leap of faith and plan for every potential curve ball. There are private labs and I’d pay the 100$ for my own blood work along the way.

Rule #1 is making sure you have everything you would need on hand if shit hits the fan.

Read some of the “stickies” in this forum (if you can’t find them, ask and I can post the links) and I’d just read about test with an AI or SERM on board and gyno prevention. Knowing your body helps and I’m sure with your journey, you’re in tune with yours. Be on the lookout for the telltale signs…itchy, tingling sensation in the nips and lumps.

If you decide to run test, don’t just run 200 as you’ll really just get yourself into a high end or normal and then have to deal with the inevitable crash regardless and still PCT. If you’re going to take the leap, safely go off of the high dive and 4-500 is a great place to start. You can always add on some Var of winny for the last 4-6 weeks if everything is moving smoothly or just ride it out and plan for the next one. That’s the problem too, there’s always a next one

Best of luck, I’ll be keeping an eye on your thread. Others will weigh in I’m sure.

Welcome again

[Honkey_Kong]

Dude, at 5'11 and 161lbs, you really have no business running gear.

It's great that you lost all that weight, but you have a lot of room to gain naturally, before you should even consider gear. You really should spend some time in the diet section and learn to do a controlled bulk. But I'm sure you'll do whatever you want so good luck.

[FryingPanMan244]

well its not about "Doing whatever i want"... im here to learn i haven't decided to do anything as of yet

and i am not looking to "Bulk" i am looking to increase the speed of my lean muscle mass, im not wanting to get crazy big, im going for what i would call a "Bruce lee" look, muscular, but intensely "Cut"

i am doing everything i can already food wise, i run a ketogenic diet, with enhanced protein intake beyond what is normally acceptable for standard keto macros in order to fuel muscle growth

Although i am getting stronger naturally, the process is painfully slow, weeks on end on the same weights with very little to "Show" for the work i am putting in, (i gym on a 2 days on, 1 day off cycle, working every muscle group the very same work out regime that was taught to me by my old P.E Teacher in school, who was an ex-royal marine and built like a steel crap house)

the whole reason for getting interested in steroids was to not look for an easy out, (im more than willing to put in the work) but to make the process a little more rapid so i can look as good, and feel as strong as i know i can... push through the pesky plateaus that take months to break and such

i get the feeling you think i want to go from 161lbs to 250lbs of pure muscle... thats not the case, far far from it, i would never ever want to be that big

[SampsonandDelilah]

You’re 32 and a grown ass man. I don’t have an issue with it as I took shortcuts myself, I’d be a hypocrite to say otherwise. You know the risks and you know the rewards… at 32 you’re old enough in my opinion.
Now at 23, Id be more apt to spend time talking guys out of it. The goal is to tap into a community and offer insights, education and support where we can (my belief anyways).

I get the guys that encourage otherwise, but the reality is there’s an opportunity to offer up some help crafting a cycle for the dude. It’s obvious he’s worked hard, I can tell from the pics. Put yourself in his shoes and throw a bone not shade

[FryingPanMan244]

So... been doing some more reading, and you suggested maybe running Primo...

unfortunately the only primo i can get access to is Primo Depot which is injectable and an enth ester, which you said is not suitable for a shorter 8 week cycle, is this correct?

[SampsonandDelilah]

So... been doing some more reading, and you suggested maybe running Primo...

unfortunately the only primo i can get access to is Primo Depot which is injectable and an enth ester, which you said is not suitable for a shorter 8 week cycle, is this correct?

Correct, depot is attached to the enth ester. It takes the same time as any product with an enanthate ester, 3-4 weeks. You can definitely front load it and get it to kick in faster (some believe in front loading long esters, some don’t. I am a proponent for sure and notice it). It doesn’t aromatize and is known for its fat burning ability…that’s why I suggested it. You could drop the test dosage as well. What’s the reservation of going longer than 8 weeks?

[FryingPanMan244]

Hmm, interesting

Ok so, front loading could you explain more about what that is/how it works etc?

as for the 8 weeks, the only reason i was considering a short cycle like that to start with was simply because its the first cycle, and i wanted to ease myself into it, i don't have any reservations about doing a longer cycle if i handle the compounds well, which im sure i would

[SampsonandDelilah]

Hmm, interesting

Ok so, front loading could you explain more about what that is/how it works etc?

as for the 8 weeks, the only reason i was considering a short cycle like that to start with was simply because its the first cycle, and i wanted to ease myself into it, i don't have any reservations about doing a longer cycle if i handle the compounds well, which im sure i would

Front loading is basically doubling your dose the first week in an attempt to get peak blood levels attained faster with longer acting esters and shortening the time it takes them to kick in.


With those compounds and the dosages you’re debating, I would t be so concerned about easing in. At a certain point you have to decide whether you’re in or your out. You’ll get analysis paralysis and overthink it, quite common. You’ll know quickly how you’ll react and having the proper ancillaries on hand along with a plan B and C would be wise.

At some point you just have to jump in.

With long esters, 8 weeks is too short in my opinion. You’re really hitting the ground around weeks 4-6 and then you shut it off two weeks later, it’s counterproductive. If that’s your plan then you need to focus on shorter esters and more frequent injections…definitely an opportunity there as well.

Best of luck

[FryingPanMan244]

*nods* gotcha... and yeah i know the Analysis paralysis is something i suffer from a great deal

Ok... so, if you say i can lower the test by adding primo, you previously said i should run about 400 test PW, how much would you lower it by if i add primo?

[FryingPanMan244]

*nods* gotcha... and yeah i know the Analysis paralysis is something i suffer from a great deal

Ok... so, if you say i can lower the test by adding primo, you previously said i should run about 400 test PW, how much would you lower it by if i add primo?

Accidental double post... sorry

[SampsonandDelilah]

I wouldn’t go any lower than 300…

Otherwise you’re on the highest end of TRT dose and risk shutting your HPTA down for minimal impact. I would think 400 mgs of primo with 300 mgs of test world go a long way.

Just be prepared to go from feeling like Superman to clark kent during PCT, it’s sobering and it sucks. Long term is look at TRT. At 32 I don’t think you’re quite there but I’d definitely check my levels after 3 months post PCT and see where you’re at…that could’ve been some of your issues prior to getting in shape (just one more thing to think about )

[FryingPanMan244]

Okie Dokie... so, done some more reading, and come up with a revised Cycle for your consideration

Test E/Cyp 300mg Per Week (pinning mon and thur) for 8 weeks (front load with 600mg first week?)
Primobolan Depot 400mg Per Week, (pinning mon and thur) for 8 weeks (front load with 400mg first week?)
Mast E 300mg per week (pinning mon and thur) for 8 weeks (mainly for the Anti E)

Test P 100mg EOD from week 9 to week 12
Mast P 75mg EOD from week 9 to week 12 (mainly for the Anti E)

Arimidex 0.25mg to .05mg EOD (If needed)

Nolvadex On hand Along with various supplements for general health/liver function etc

PCT as stated on the previous cycle

[Mooseman33]

question i have is that with his gyno issues why would you frontload?

why not just run a smooth 8 weeks of test prop? keep it real simple, if u have issues it clears system quick?

Sampson knows his shit so u wont ever go wrong listening to him, Im asking cause I see it different.

[Mooseman33]

question i have is that with his gyno issues why would you frontload?

why not just run a smooth 8 weeks of test prop? keep it real simple, if u have issues it clears system quick?

Sampson knows his shit so u wont ever go wrong listening to him, Im asking cause I see it different.

[SampsonandDelilah]

question i have is that with his gyno issues why would you frontload?

why not just run a smooth 8 weeks of test prop? keep it real simple, if u have issues it clears system quick?

Sampson knows his shit so u wont ever go wrong listening to him, Im asking cause I see it different.

Absolutely a valid point in regards to front loading and prop is a great route. My suggestion was based off of keeping test low and adding primo which he only get in depot. For ease of maintaining a pinning schedule and matching esters were why I suggested what I did.
I was more explaining front loading than suggesting it.

Again, there’s a ton of ways you can go. Could just run prop your first run and keep test at 300 and skip the primo all together. Don’t want to confuse or backtrack but the gyno history gives me some pause and don’t want to steer you wrong. It’s good to have these conversations and happy that Moose jumped in as you get different angles and ultimately YOU get to make the decision, we just provide a sounding board

I am a fan of primo though and the fact it doesn’t aromatize, has minimal sides and thermogenic effects really seems like a winner for you

[FryingPanMan244]

Okie, ive got alot to think about, and more research to do

thanks for the input everyone

(^_^)

[s1nc1ty]

How i did my cycle was for first 4 weeks i was on 250 mg / week, adapted to the effects / sideffects, after the 4 weeks i felt comfortable to raise the dose. I then went to 350 / week. This seems like a logical and safer way to start a new potentially side effect heavy medication, start with lower dose and then raise it. There is no hurry imo. You can ease into it, if nothing negative happens you can progressively go harder either this cycle or next. If negative effects come, they wont hit you as hard or unexpectedly as if you would start with a higher dose. You dont have to get swole with you first cycle, its an introduction to steroids, and testosterone, IMO.(you will make progress though even with lower doses) Thats how i took it atleast. You have all the time in the world to heavier and heavier substance wise.