arimidex or nolvadex

[teedoff]

So I keep reading here and occasionally see things or comments that might have me confused...or at least wondering about this.

It seems I may be prone to a touch of gyno since going on trt injections. It seems to have subsided since a couple weeks of some arimidex therapy.

If I understand this, nolvadex only helps treat symptoms of gyno, whereas arimidex will counter act all estrogenic side affects.

I think ive read that higher estrogen helps increase the anabolic response to exercise. But I think too high of estrogen is what causes my gyno response. So there must be a balance there I assume.

So, if I'm prone to gyno, should I use nolva during cycle to help with the gyno and try to keep estrogen levels a little higher? Or am I thinking about this all wrong and it shouldn't matter which I use to combat the gyno.

[Cylon357]

So I keep reading here and occasionally see things or comments that might have me confused...or at least wondering about this.

It seems I may be prone to a touch of gyno since going on trt injections. It seems to have subsided since a couple weeks of some arimidex therapy.

If I understand this, nolvadex only helps treat symptoms of gyno, whereas arimidex will counter act all estrogenic side affects.

I think ive read that higher estrogen helps increase the anabolic response to exercise. But I think too high of estrogen is what causes my gyno response. So there must be a balance there I assume.

So, if I'm prone to gyno, should I use nolva during cycle to help with the gyno and try to keep estrogen levels a little higher? Or am I thinking about this all wrong and it shouldn't matter which I use to combat the gyno.

Your thinking is relatively sound on this topic, good job!

A little clarification though: nolvadex can reverse and eliminate gyno. It doesn't just treat symptoms, it can make it (essentially) go away, if caught early enough and it isn't too severe.

On TRT, the only way you should encounter real gyno is if your dose is too high, you have too much body fat, are a naturally high aromatizer, or some combination of those things. The first two you can address by either adjusting your dose, or losing some fat. The last one can only be treated with some drug / supplement therapy.

In general, we want to reduce the number of drugs we take to feel good, at least in the context of TRT. In other words, in a perfect world, you wouldn't need either nolvadex or adex, you would have your protocol dialed in to not need them.

Post up your drug protocol and stats for the best responses, but in a nut shell...

On cycle: keep both nolvadex and an AI on hand. I would use the nolvadex at 5 to 10 mg per day throughout the cycle, only using an AI if nolvadex can't handle it by itself. Alternately, or perhaps in addition, you could add a DHT derivative like proviron, masteron or primo. Any of those three provide various AI like qualities, among other things.

On TRT: try to dial your dose in properly to not need anything else regularly. That might mean reducing your weekly dose and / or increasing injection frequency, but it can be done for most people. If you are one of the unlucky ones that just needs an AI, make a liquid version and microdose it.

Hope that helps!

[teedoff]

Your thinking is relatively sound on this topic, good job!

A little clarification though: nolvadex can reverse and eliminate gyno. It doesn't just treat symptoms, it can make it (essentially) go away, if caught early enough and it isn't too severe.

On TRT, the only way you should encounter real gyno is if your dose is too high, you have too much body fat, are a naturally high aromatizer, or some combination of those things. The first two you can address by either adjusting your dose, or losing some fat. The last one can only be treated with some drug / supplement therapy.

In general, we want to reduce the number of drugs we take to feel good, at least in the context of TRT. In other words, in a perfect world, you wouldn't need either nolvadex or adex, you would have your protocol dialed in to not need them.

Post up your drug protocol and stats for the best responses, but in a nut shell...

On cycle: keep both nolvadex and an AI on hand. I would use the nolvadex at 5 to 10 mg per day throughout the cycle, only using an AI if nolvadex can't handle it by itself. Alternately, or perhaps in addition, you could add a DHT derivative like proviron, masteron or primo. Any of those three provide various AI like qualities, among other things.

On TRT: try to dial your dose in properly to not need anything else regularly. That might mean reducing your weekly dose and / or increasing injection frequency, but it can be done for most people. If you are one of the unlucky ones that just needs an AI, make a liquid version and microdose it.

Hope that helps!

Thanks for the info.

So yes currently I guess my trt is a bit high. Also my body fat is high as well. lol.

But, a little history first. I've mentioned in other threads that I started trt about 3 years ago and was doing the gel until about 3 months ago. I started with one pump of gel and that seemed to keep my test levels in a good range, but the other side affects i was not pleased with. Atrophy being one of them. Went to see a urologist about that and some developing ed. He suggested doing injections instead and of course said trt wouldn't cause ed. Perhaps its true, but I'm not convinced. I said I wasn't sure I wanted to do injections yet, so he suggested I up the gel to two pumps daily. BTW, after almost 3 years on the single pump dose of gel....and many labs done, my test was low again. Almost like I built up a tolerance for the gel

I will say I've noticed a little pain under my left nipple for possible a year BEFORE any injection trt started.

I then went to an hrt clinic. The owner is very open about and very pro gear, so I decided to a prescription from him for test and start injections. He prescribed 150mg weekly. The vials are 200mg 1ml vials. Being new to this, I didn't want to waste and not inject the last 50mg, so I've been doing the whole 200mg a week. Of course I've learned since then I can draw from the same vial several times, so it wouldn't be wasted if I don't use it all each week. My test isn't extremely high. 7 weeks in he pulled blood. Test is a little over 1400. free test don't recall right off. Estrogen was in the 90s I think.

But again, I had some soreness and a lump in one breast even on gel and even when I was very low body fat last year.

Recap to make it easier to read.

I'm doing 100mg twice a week test c.

To combat the gyno I did two 1mg tabs twice for a single week, then half a tab twice a week for the second week.

right now I'm 215lbs and 5'9".

[Cylon357]

Thanks for the info.

So yes currently I guess my trt is a bit high. Also my body fat is high as well. lol.

But, a little history first. I've mentioned in other threads that I started trt about 3 years ago and was doing the gel until about 3 months ago. I started with one pump of gel and that seemed to keep my test levels in a good range, but the other side affects i was not pleased with. Atrophy being one of them. Went to see a urologist about that and some developing ed. He suggested doing injections instead and of course said trt wouldn't cause ed. Perhaps its true, but I'm not convinced. I said I wasn't sure I wanted to do injections yet, so he suggested I up the gel to two pumps daily. BTW, after almost 3 years on the single pump dose of gel....and many labs done, my test was low again. Almost like I built up a tolerance for the gel

I will say I've noticed a little pain under my left nipple for possible a year BEFORE any injection trt started.

I then went to an hrt clinic. The owner is very open about and very pro gear, so I decided to a prescription from him for test and start injections. He prescribed 150mg weekly. The vials are 200mg 1ml vials. Being new to this, I didn't want to waste and not inject the last 50mg, so I've been doing the whole 200mg a week. Of course I've learned since then I can draw from the same vial several times, so it wouldn't be wasted if I don't use it all each week. My test isn't extremely high. 7 weeks in he pulled blood. Test is a little over 1400. free test don't recall right off. Estrogen was in the 90s I think.

But again, I had some soreness and a lump in one breast even on gel and even when I was very low body fat last year.

Recap to make it easier to read.

I'm doing 200mg twice a week test c.

To combat the gyno I did two 1mg tabs twice for a single week, then half a tab twice a week for the second week.

right now I'm 215lbs and 5'9".

So some of this is a little confusing.

I think you are doing 200mg per week divided over two shots. If so, that is high TRT and likely the root of your current issues. You could / should roll that back to 150 or maybe even 120 per week, divided into 2 shots.

1400 total test IS extremely high for long term TRT, especially considering the fact that IDK if that was at peak or trough. At any rate, this is going to cause issues with hematocrit and rbc, plus estrogen and dht.

Atrophy will be an issue in the presence of exogenous testosterone, regardless of form: gel, oral, pellets or injections will cause this. The cure is HCG. Again, it doesn't matter HOW you get the exogenous test (or other AAS), HCG will reverse and prevent testicular atrophy.

In short: lower that test dose and add HCG. Lose some body fat. Address the gyno if you are sure it is gyno.

Nolvadex for a few weeks can't hurt, though it isn't without some sides. Run your lower dose test and HCG until you get to a stable level.

[Cylon357]

Recap to make it easier to read.

I'm doing 200mg twice a week test c.

That part in bold is the confusing part, BTW. It makes it sound like you are doing 200x2 = 400mg per week. That would be insane long term.

[teedoff]

Sorry. Yes 200mg divided into two shots weekly of 1/5ml each shot.

The lab was done on a Friday morning before my dose that afternoon. I was only doing a single dose a week then, so yes it was not peek results.

What has been puzzling to me though was I had this knot/tenderness under my nipple when I was on the gel and my test levels were at a more reasonable spot. I think it was around 650. But the breast soreness did get a bit worse when I moved to injections and the 200mg a week.

So maybe it's not gyno or maybe it is. I do know the arimidex has alleviated the pain and tenderness. Still seems to be a lump there so I will be having that checked out.

[teedoff]

Edited my dose so as not to be confusing.