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  1. #1
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    The Passion of the Christ (arguments for and against)

    Tock asked me to start a new thread on this. So that is what I am doing. It was in response to why he did not believe in Jesus Christ. Since this is still related to the Passion of the Christ and the crucifixicion, that's how I will start off the thread. You will find the subject followed by the Old Testament prediction and followed up by the New Testament description of the events. I am on things that pertain to the movie. The odds of 48 prophecies being fulfilled is
    1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
    000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
    000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
    000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
    000,000,000,000. Below are just a few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Short Version
    This amazing Book of Isaiah predicted that the Messiah would (1) be virgin born (7:14), (2) have a forerunner--John the Baptist (40:3-5), (3) be worshipped by wise men with gifts (60:3),(4) be called a Nazarene (11:1), (5) be filled with God's Spirit (11:2), (6) be a minister to the Gentiles (9:1-2; 42:1-3), (7) be a healer of multitudes (51:4), (8) speaks in parables (6:9-10), (9) His miracles would not be believed (53:10), (10) be rejected by His own nation (53:3), (11) be scourged and spit upon (50:6), (12) be crucified between two thieves (53:12), (13) be buried with the rich (53:9),and (14) be given the eternal throne of David. (9:6-7)
    He would be preceded by a Messenger
    Isaiah 40:3, "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"

    Matthew 3:1-2, "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"


    Rejected by His own people
    Isaiah 53:3, "He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not."

    John 7:5, "For even his own brothers did not believe in him."
    John 7:48, "Have any of the rulers or the Pharisees believed in Him?"


    His side pierced
    Zechariah 12:10, "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on Me, the Aleph and Tav, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for Him as one mourns for an only Son."

    John 19:34, "...one of the soldiers pierced Yeshua's side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."


    Crucifixion
    Psalm 22:1, 11-18, "For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan. Dogs have
    surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."

    Luke 23:33, "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified Him (Yeshua), along with the criminals -- one on His right, the other on His left."

    John 19:33, "But when they came to Yeshua and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs."

    John 19:23-24, "When the soldiers crucified Yeshua, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. Let's not tear it, they said to one another. 'Let's decide by lot who will get it.' This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, 'They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.' So this is what the soldiers did."

    ******************
    These are my beliefs as well. You could argue that the Old Testament had been changed to match the teachings in the New Testament, however if you look at the recent discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls (which was translated by a variety of people with different religions, including atheists, and is available for purchase in your local bookstore now) you will find an almost identical match to the current version of the Old Testament. Therefore, it is my conclusion, that the Old Testament truly predicted the coming of Jesus, and the events that would happen to him hundreds of years before the event happened. I'm just trying to keep the debate to what I see as facts, instead of opinions.

    Debate away.

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    Very nice Jason.........u spent some time making this thread.

    I for one liked the movie and think it was close to how it happened....it seemed to follow the bible. I had never really thought how much Christ suffered to make it where my sins can be washed away by the blood of the Lamb(Jesus Christ for those that don't know). With allows me a mere sinner the chance to repent and be cleaned and enter the Kingdom of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bornbad71
    Very nice Jason.........u spent some time making this thread.

    I for one liked the movie and think it was close to how it happened....it seemed to follow the bible. I had never really thought how much Christ suffered to make it where my sins can be washed away by the blood of the Lamb(Jesus Christ for those that don't know). With allows me a mere sinner the chance to repent and be cleaned and enter the Kingdom of God.
    Well, honestly I just did some web searching. The arguments are on most apologetic websites. You just have to search, ensure they are accurate, and paste them.

    I've seen the movie twice now and hope to see it once more. I cannot begin to imagine the pain that He suffered. There is no way He could have endured that torture without God keeping Him alive. There was some artistic interpretation in there (Satan and the Anti-Christ), but most things seem to line up very well with the Bible. One thing that I didn't necessarily agree with was the hanging of Judas. I would think he would have had to have been much higher for his guts to come out after he fell from the tree that he was hanging on, but still the same basic concept.

    I would say it was probably the most accurate interpretation we will ever see.

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    Alright....... here is the only post i will make here on this subject..

    The message, the meaninig of the suffering, the sacrifice was done as an act of love... Imagine, he was showing us what it meant to follow his 2 commandments that he gave to us... Love God, and to Love one another..

    then he showed us the level of love that he had for us...

    Now, If you have a child, (wife, mother, whoever is most important to you)(and i will use myself as an example) and my daughter was taken from me, sexually abused, tortured, and killed in the most vial way... For me to have the same love as Christ... I would have to put myself, my life in the gas chamber in his place, to accept his punishment and allow him to go free..

    that is the sacrifice that God gave to us, and the sacrifice that Jesus did for us..... and to me............. that is the real message.........

    Now imagine that for each stroke of the whip, each punch from the guard, each indignity that he suffered, each one was a punishment for every sin that i had committed in my life, every lie, every feeling of pride in self, every greed, and curse that i had, everytime i became angry with someone.......

    I cannot love as Jesus, nor will i sacrifice as he did.......... it is not in me.. I know that in my life, all that is good, is because he is with me......

    And yes the other thread on this after some debate with Tock, I gave up.. to a point.. and i told him several times that i would pray for him.... but in truth, i did, I prayed for mercy for him... and for all non believers, that they will be shown mercy... this is not a message of fear.... (love me or else) for i do not fear God, or judgement, for i am promised that i will be saved.

    Rather the message is that he loved you and sacrificed for you long before you were created........... If someone loves you that much.......... how could you not love them back.??






    Quote Originally Posted by PTbyJason
    Well, honestly I just did some web searching. The arguments are on most apologetic websites. You just have to search, ensure they are accurate, and paste them.

    I've seen the movie twice now and hope to see it once more. I cannot begin to imagine the pain that He suffered. There is no way He could have endured that torture without God keeping Him alive. There was some artistic interpretation in there (Satan and the Anti-Christ), but most things seem to line up very well with the Bible. One thing that I didn't necessarily agree with was the hanging of Judas. I would think he would have had to have been much higher for his guts to come out after he fell from the tree that he was hanging on, but still the same basic concept.

    I would say it was probably the most accurate interpretation we will ever see.
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    I do respect anyone's beliefs as their own but it isn't too hard to make things line up nice when the book about it was written well after the fact. Am I wrong or wasn't the bible scribed well after these events?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bookman
    I do respect anyone's beliefs as their own but it isn't too hard to make things line up nice when the book about it was written well after the fact. Am I wrong or wasn't the bible scribed well after these events?
    There are books written on this. What specifically do you want an answer to?

    When various books of the Old Testament were written?
    How they were translated?
    The oldest original manuscript found?
    The accuracy of the manuscripts found in relation to one another?
    The time periods of the books of the New Testament written?
    The # of original manuscripts found around the world?
    How close they were to one another, even though they were found all over the world?
    The fact that pieces of the Old Testament were found AFTER the New Testament was written, and they were still accurate?

    That's a big question and each question could have a whole chapter of a book written about it if you want a full explanation. If you really want to know, and want to read about it.....check out A Case for Christ written by Lee Strobel who was an atheist when he began writing this book. It gives a brief rundown on some of those specific questions. I believe that's the right book.

    I'm out for the night guys. I'll debate another time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bookman
    I do respect anyone's beliefs as their own but it isn't too hard to make things line up nice when the book about it was written well after the fact. Am I wrong or wasn't the bible scribed well after these events?
    I don't like the incomplete answer I gave you, so I had to come back up here. I really kind of set you up with the questions I was asking.

    The old testament was scribed hundreds of centuries before the New Testament. There have even been some discoveries this century (the Dead Sea Scrolls) that show the accuracy of the Old Testament. So the Old Testament was not just put together after the New Testament in order to make it match.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTbyJason
    I don't like the incomplete answer I gave you, so I had to come back up here. I really kind of set you up with the questions I was asking.

    The old testament was scribed hundreds of centuries before the New Testament. There have even been some discoveries this century (the Dead Sea Scrolls) that show the accuracy of the Old Testament. So the Old Testament was not just put together after the New Testament in order to make it match.
    I guess my question is a little too broad to really get answered on here. It was just a quick question anyways but the answer is no where near as quick. I guess I'll take some good old fashioned AR advice and RESEARCH this if I want to know. Thanks for trying though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bookman
    I do respect anyone's beliefs as their own but it isn't too hard to make things line up nice when the book about it was written well after the fact. Am I wrong or wasn't the bible scribed well after these events?
    My "Haley's Bible Handbook" (a standard reference book for fundamentalists) says the gospels were written in:
    68 AD for Matthew
    60-70 AD for Mark
    60 AD for Luke
    90 AD for John
    Considering that the event is reputed to have happened in 30 AD, you can see that by the most charitable assessments, the gospels were written some 30 to 60 years after the actual events. Considering how most people were illiterate back then, and how people are prone to "pump up" stories about celebrities, given the length of time until things were written down, and given the lack of the sorts of verification and double-checking methods used in modern journalism, my guess is that there is a significant difference between what actually happened and what got written down.

    What is fun is to ask a fundamentalist who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and who wrote them. Moses is supposed to have written them, or at least, this is the "traditional" view.

    A note from Halley's Handbook:
    "The modern critical view is that it is a composite work of various schools of priests, made about the 8th century BC, for partisan purposes, based on oral traditions, the principal redactors of which are called "J", "E," and "P." And although the critics differ widely among themselves as to just which sections to assign to these respective editors, the theory is put forth under the specious claim that it is the "assured result" of "modern scholarship." According to theis view, it is not real history, but only a "patchwork picked out of a rag bag of scattered legends."

    Yah, they don't think too much of "modern scholarship," and go on to explain how Moses could very well have written the books in question. Only thing is, "modern scholarship" is based on the best fragments of the oldest documents in existance, and the Halley's Handbook authors are clinging to nothing more than "tradition."

    Moses supposedly wrote the account of his leading over half the population out of Egypt and the subsequent decimation of the Egyption pharaoh's army. But, there is no corroborating mention of these cataclysmic events in any of the then-contemporary writings, and they are plentiful. The only place this story occurrs is in the Old Testament of the Hebrews.

    So . . . if the "Exodus" account in the Old Testament is nothing more than myth, can other parts of the Bible be "fiction" as well?

    To anyone with a lick of common sense, the answer would be yes, of course. But . . . to anyone taught that the Bible is 100% inerrant, 100% true, 100% accurate, and 100% the Word of God, such an admission would be heresy, and would amount to them saying that the entire Bible was NOT the Inerrant Word Of God, and because of this attachment to the "Inerrancy Doctrine," you will find many fundamentalists clinging to the certainty of the Bible's account of the Exodus fable even though there is a conspicuous absence of evidence that such a thing ever happened.

    Ya, I can explain why the Noah's Ark story is only a fable, but you will find fundamentalists clinging to the fiction with so much certitude that they not only beleive Noah existed 6000 years ago, but that he had dinosaurs on the ark with all the other animals (Institute for Creation Research) . . .

    And then these fundamentalists, so wedded to their Bible fictions, insist that young school children be taught this stuff as fact in public schools. Imagine what would happn to American Education if they suceed. Kids grow up thinking the Earth is only 6500 years old, that dinosaurs lived 6000 years ago, that evolution is "the devil's doctrine." Now, put a generation of minds thusly trained against a generation of Chinese, Korean, Indian, and European minds trained in mathematics, modern biology, geology, languages, etc. Which cultures would you think would be better prepared to compete in technological endeavors?

    Hah . . .

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand . . .
    The bible is not a reliable text for much of anything.
    Yah, that about sums it up . . .
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    My "Haley's Bible Handbook" (a standard reference book for fundamentalists) says the gospels were written in:
    68 AD for Matthew
    60-70 AD for Mark
    60 AD for Luke
    90 AD for John
    Considering that the event is reputed to have happened in 30 AD, you can see that by the most charitable assessments, the gospels were written some 30 to 60 years after the actual events. Considering how most people were illiterate back then, and how people are prone to "pump up" stories about celebrities, given the length of time until things were written down, and given the lack of the sorts of verification and double-checking methods used in modern journalism, my guess is that there is a significant difference between what actually happened and what got written down.

    What is fun is to ask a fundamentalist who wrote the first 5 books of the Bible, and who wrote them. Moses is supposed to have written them, or at least, this is the "traditional" view.

    A note from Halley's Handbook:
    "The modern critical view is that it is a composite work of various schools of priests, made about the 8th century BC, for partisan purposes, based on oral traditions, the principal redactors of which are called "J", "E," and "P." And although the critics differ widely among themselves as to just which sections to assign to these respective editors, the theory is put forth under the specious claim that it is the "assured result" of "modern scholarship." According to theis view, it is not real history, but only a "patchwork picked out of a rag bag of scattered legends."

    Yah, they don't think too much of "modern scholarship," and go on to explain how Moses could very well have written the books in question. Only thing is, "modern scholarship" is based on the best fragments of the oldest documents in existance, and the Halley's Handbook authors are clinging to nothing more than "tradition."

    Moses supposedly wrote the account of his leading over half the population out of Egypt and the subsequent decimation of the Egyption pharaoh's army. But, there is no corroborating mention of these cataclysmic events in any of the then-contemporary writings, and they are plentiful. The only place this story occurrs is in the Old Testament of the Hebrews.

    So . . . if the "Exodus" account in the Old Testament is nothing more than myth, can other parts of the Bible be "fiction" as well?

    To anyone with a lick of common sense, the answer would be yes, of course. But . . . to anyone taught that the Bible is 100% inerrant, 100% true, 100% accurate, and 100% the Word of God, such an admission would be heresy, and would amount to them saying that the entire Bible was NOT the Inerrant Word Of God, and because of this attachment to the "Inerrancy Doctrine," you will find many fundamentalists clinging to the certainty of the Bible's account of the Exodus fable even though there is a conspicuous absence of evidence that such a thing ever happened.

    Ya, I can explain why the Noah's Ark story is only a fable, but you will find fundamentalists clinging to the fiction with so much certitude that they not only beleive Noah existed 6000 years ago, but that he had dinosaurs on the ark with all the other animals (Institute for Creation Research) . . .

    And then these fundamentalists, so wedded to their Bible fictions, insist that young school children be taught this stuff as fact in public schools. Imagine what would happn to American Education if they suceed. Kids grow up thinking the Earth is only 6500 years old, that dinosaurs lived 6000 years ago, that evolution is "the devil's doctrine." Now, put a generation of minds thusly trained against a generation of Chinese, Korean, Indian, and European minds trained in mathematics, modern biology, geology, languages, etc. Which cultures would you think would be better prepared to compete in technological endeavors?

    Hah . . .

    Anyway, back to the topic at hand . . .
    The bible is not a reliable text for much of anything.
    Yah, that about sums it up . . .
    -Tock
    Tock left some points out.

    If you look back in history you will indeed find that many in that time could not write. Stories were passed down by word of mouth throughout the world because of this. In fact you will find most "documents" from that time written down hundreds of years after the actual event happened. Do you rememebr before we had cell phones and you had to write down or remember all of your friends phone numbers? I honestly knew tons of phone numbers because it was what I was use to. Today however, with my cell phone, I never have to write down or remember a phone number. Half the time, I can't tell you my phone number. lol It was just the way things were done back then. Things were remembered and passed down from person to person. Now here are a few things that Tock forgot to mention.

    Many books of the New Testament were written down by witnesses of the events that happened. That doesn't happen normally. You won't find many times that events were written down by the actual witnesses in ancient history. So the fact that these events were written down only 30 - 60 years after the actual event shows that there were more likely to be accurate than other historical documents.

    Edit: Table isn't working. I'll type it out

    Author.....................................When Written..........Earlierst Copy........Time Span.....# of copies
    1) Homer (Iliad).....................900 BC.................400 BC.......................500 years.......643
    2) Ceasar (The Gallic Wars)....100-44 BC..........900 AD.......................1,000 years...........10
    3) Plato (Tetralogies)...............427 - 347 BC......900 AD......................1,200 years............7
    4) Aristotle.................................384 - 322 BC......1,100 AD....................1,400 years............49
    5) Herodotus (History)..............480 - 425 BC......900 AD.......................1,300 years............8
    6) Euripedes................................480 - 460 BC......1,100 AD....................1,500 years.............9
    7) New Testament.......................50 - 90 AD...........130 AD......................30 years.............24,000








    If you look at the chart, you can draw your own conclusions on the accuracy of the Bible vs other historical documents that are accepted.

    One other thing.....with the # of documents found (24,000) they were amazingly accurate from one copy to the next, even though they were passed down only by word of mouth.

  11. #11
    i'm in on this. i havent the time now but i'll be back to add some insight into tocks side of the debate

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    Quote Originally Posted by floyd_turbo
    i'm in on this. i havent the time now but i'll be back to add some insight into tocks side of the debate
    I just ask that it is a debate of something other than opinion. I know that religion, in and of itself, is opinion, but I can give references to statements that I am making. I just ask for the same, if it's possible. If not, that's fine too, just try to do as well as you can on that.

    I'm gone for the night once again.

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    Jason, you bring up good points, but the ambiguity of the Psalms of David leave much to be imagined. In the Psalms David speaks of a prophet who would be rejected by his own people, tortured, and slain, all in the eyes of those who saw him as a heretic. Any prophet of that time would have fit that description. Any man who came to preach the word of God, claiming of his own kingdom in heaven (indirectly of course) would be crucified in much the same fashion. I am not disputing the sanctity of Christ, not his contributions, but in this argument merely that the descriptions of Christ's coming as the Messiah would have fit any man at the time preaching the name of Yahweh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rambo
    Jason, you bring up good points, but the ambiguity of the Psalms of David leave much to be imagined. In the Psalms David speaks of a prophet who would be rejected by his own people, tortured, and slain, all in the eyes of those who saw him as a heretic. Any prophet of that time would have fit that description. Any man who came to preach the word of God, claiming of his own kingdom in heaven (indirectly of course) would be crucified in much the same fashion. I am not disputing the sanctity of Christ, not his contributions, but in this argument merely that the descriptions of Christ's coming as the Messiah would have fit any man at the time preaching the name of Yahweh.
    Are you sure about that? Go back and read Psalms 22 and see if fits "any prophet".
    All verses NIV

    Psalm 22:14 - I am poured out like water; and all of my bones are out of joint.

    Jesus had his side pierced, "poured out like water" and when he was crucified his bones were pulled out of joint.

    Psalms 22:16 - .....they have pierced my hands and my feet.

    Crucifixion was not even in existance at the time of David's writings

    Psalms 22:18 - They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing

    Kind of a weird statement to be put in there. How often does that happen to someone anyway?

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    I look in to this stuff a lot and always like to hear peoples thoughts. Just to share this thought, I was watching a show talking about an incredible piece of architecture built around 1500 years ago that just withstood a 7.5 mag earthquake. That's not the point though, what interested me was the accounts of the building from people at the time it was built. It had a large dome with windows encircling the bottom where the dome connected to the building. People described this as the dome "sat on a chain of light" and "floated on angels" and things like that. These are really beautiful describing sentences to illustrate the look but all I could think was this is how these people described things back then, and then thousands of years later we look at these things for our factual evidence of what happenned. Descriptions in all old scriptures have this fantastical way of describing things and I could imagine over 30-60 years some fantastic things might have been added to these stories. But I have as much proof of that as you have that it didn't happen so .... who knows. I certainly won't sit here and pretend I do.

  16. #16
    I don't have a lot of interest in attempting to prove the bible right or wrong. As far as belief and worship goes, I ask, why should I bother?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skin-and-Bone
    I don't have a lot of interest in attempting to prove the bible right or wrong. As far as belief and worship goes, I ask, why should I bother?
    Well I will avoid the typical "turn or burn" speech because I know Tock will just be waiting to jump all over that.

    It's your choice bro. No one can force you to believe one thing or another. I sought after more knowledge and understanding of past events, and because of that it changed every aspect of my life. My life is completely different now, and that is not just an opinion. Others can see that as well....before that argument even gets started. Now if that is just because it's something I believe in and I molded myself that way, as some will argue, then so be it. I have a much happier life now, and I am enjoying it. I personally feel there was a change from within me, that I could not have done on my own.

  18. #18
    As far as the movie itself goes, I don't think they were even trying to tell the real Jesus story. The included a little "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" scene, and even the Church will admit now that this little patr of the story is a fiction.

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    Gentlemen, just as a quick aside, I would like to say that there is no beverage quite as satisfying on a cool crisp morning as hot, fresh, black, coffee.
    That's all I wanted to say . . .
    Back to the wrangling . . .
    --Tock

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    These posts are getting too lengthy...

    Biggest Prophecies/Inconsistencies with J.C.
    - Did not save the Jews, destruction of Temple and Temple Judaism shortly after his death. Start of Diaspora and horrible persecution of Jews and Christians alike.
    - Is purported to be God (Greek/Pagan Adaptation). Anathema to monotheism and Judaism especially.

    This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of the inconsistencies of Paul's writings.

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    Whether the film was accurate or not it doesnt really matter. God sent his only son to redeem us of our sins. The church on the other is a human institution which is not perfect. Through the centuries the Church was the voice of god on earth which it used for its own benefit and purpose. Whatever the case i can go on and on about church conspiracies etc. etc. ALA da vinci code but i will not.

    I beleive that to be a good christian, we do not have to necessarily go t church etc. etc. Jesus pretty much summed it up when he said that there is a church in every human being. what he meant was as long as are good person, not necessarily catholic, treat others the way we want to be treated then we are all worthy of salvation. ST. Ignatius of Loyola said, "love thy neighbor as thyself" that pretty much summed up Jesus' ministry on earth.

    Spoon

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