Anabolic Member
Just a thought for my next cycle, first time using HGH. Stats are 6 ''3'' 185 8% bf 24 years old, 8- 10 cycles.
1-8 anvar 40 mg ed
1-12 sust250 every 3 days
1-12 HGH 2iu 5 days on 2 off[might go to 4iu but wanna see how I react
clomid post cycle
Thanx for any help guys, as it is greatly appreciated
Senior Member
8-10 cycles and those are your stats...Originally Posted by kman
How old were you when you started cycling and what is your cycle history? Not a flame but you should be fukking huge by now, that is if your cycles were done right and diet and workout are in order...
Anabolic Member
Na bro don't worry about it, I am not looking to get huge, due to the sport I play, I am more looking for strength, and lean mass, have done cycles like prop and winny, eq,ent. ,,, dbol,test,deca, and have used drol a couple of time,, Want to be 205 with 5 to 6% bf, really want to get my legs strong like tree trunks... Anyway any advice on my cycle..
Banned
well first off you have to run hgh for at least 3 months to get good results, the sust and anavar looks fine. I would personally stick with a 1 ester test like test E or test cyp.
Senior Member
Sus will work better if shot atleast EOD and I would say drop to 200mg each shot for an average of 700mg EW, you are averaging 625 now with what you are planning...Not that big of a difference...But is still sounds like alot...
Senior Member
12 weeks=3 months...
Banned
your not ready for HGH, to run it at your level would be a piss poor decision.
As with no other doping drug, growth hormones are still surrounded by an aura of mystery. Some call it a wonder drug which causes gigantic strength and muscle gains in the shortest time. Others con-sider it completely useless in improving sports performance and ar-gue that it only promotes the growth process in children with an early stunting of growth. Some are of the opinion that growth hor-mones in adults cause severe bone deformities in the form of over-growth of the lower jaw and extremities. And, generally speaking, which growth hormones should one take -the human form, the synthetically manufactured version, recombined or genetically pro-duced form- and in which dosage? All this controversy about growth hormones is so complex that the reader must have some basic information in order to understand them. The growth hor-mone is a polypeptide hormone consisting of 191 amino acids. In humans it is produced in the hypophysis and released if there are the right stimuli (e.g. training, sleep, stress, low blood sugar level). It is now important to understand that the freed HGH (human growth hormone) itself has no direct effect but only stimulates the liver to produce and release insulin-like growth factors and so-matomedins. These growth factors are then the ones that cause vari-ous effects on the body The problem, however, is that the liver is only capable of producing a limited amount of these substances so that the effect is limited. If growth hormones are injected they only stimulate the liver to produce and release these substances and thus, as already mentioned, have no direct effect.
During the mid 1980's only the human, biologically-active form was available as exogenous sour-cc of intake. It was obtained from the hypophysis of dead corpses, an expensive and costly procedure. In 1985 the intake of human growth hormones was linked with the very rare Creutzfeld-Jakob disease, an invariably fatal brain disease characterized by progressive dementia. In response, manufacturers removed this version from the market. Today, human growth hor-mones are no longer available for injection. Fortunately, science has not been asleep and has developed the synthetic growth hormone which is genetically produced either from Escherichia coli (E coli) or from the transformed mouse cell line. It has been available in nu-merous countries for years (see list with Trade Names
The use of these STH somatotropic hormone compounds offers the athlete three performance-enhancing effects. STH (somatotropic hormone) has a strong anabolic effect and causes an increased pro-tein synthesis which manifests itself in a muscular hypertrophy (enlargement of muscle cells) and in a muscular hyperplasia (in-crease of muscle cells.) The latter is very interesting since this in-crease cannot be obtained by the intake of steroids. This is probably also the reason why STH is called the strongest anabolic hormone. The second effect of STH is its pronounced influence on the burning of fat. It turns more body fat into energy, leading to a drastic reduc-tion in fat or allowing the athlete to increase his caloric intake. Third, and often overlooked, is the fact that STH strengthens the connective tissue, tendons, and cartilages, which could be one of the main reasons for the significant increase in strength experienced by many athletes. Several bodybuilders and powerlifters report that through the simultaneous intake with steroids STH protects the athlete from injuries while increasing his strength. You will say that this sounds just wonderful. What is the problem, however, since there are still some who argue that STH offers nothing to athletes? There are, by all means, several athletes who have tried STH and who were sadly disappointed by its results. However, as with many things in life, there is a logical explanation or perhaps even more than one:
1.The athlete simply has not taken a sufficient amount of STH regularly and over a long enough period of time. STH is a very expensive compound and an effective dosage is unaffordable by most people.
2.When using STH the body also needs more thyroid hormones, insulin, corticosteroids, gonadotropins, estrogens and - what a surprise! - androgens and anabolics. This is also the reason why STH, when taken alone, is considerably less effective and can only reach its optimum effect by the additive intake of steroids, thyroid hormones, and insulin, in particular. But we must point out in this case that STH has a predominately anabolic effect. There are three hormones which are needed at the same time in order to allow for maximum anabolic effect. These are STH, insulin, and an LT-3 thyroid hormone, such as, for example, Cytomel. Only then can the liver produce and release an optimal amount of somatomedin and insulin-like growth factors. This anabolic effect can be further enhanced by taking a substance with an anticatabolic effect. These substances are---everybody should probably know by now-anabolic/androgenic steroids or Clenbuterol. Then a synergetic effect takes place. Are you still wondering why pro bodybuilders are so incredibly massive but, at the same time, totally ripped while you are not? It is "Polypharmacy at its finest," as W Nathaniel Phillips described to the point in his bookAnabolic Reference Guide (5th Issue, 1990). But coming back once more to the "anabolic formula": STH, insulin, and L-T3. Most athletes have tried STH during preparation for a competition in that phase when the diet is calorie-reduced. The body usually reacts by reducing the release of insulin and of the L- T3 thyroid hormone. And, as was described under point 2, this is not an advantageous condition when STH is expected to work well. Well, we almost forgot. Those who combine Clenbuterol with STH should know that Clenbuterol (like Ephedrine) reduces the body's own release of insulin and L-T3. True, this seems a little complicated and when reading it for the first time it might be a little confusing; however it really is true: STH has a significant influence on several hormones in the human body; this does not allow for a simple ad-ministration schedule. As said, STH is not cheap and those who intend to use it should know a little more about it. If you only want to burn fat with STH you will only have to remember user infor-mation for the part with the L-T3 thyroid hormone as is printed by Kabi Pharmacia GmbH for their compound Genotropin: "The need of the thyroid hormone often increases during treatment with growth hormones. "
3. Since most athletes who want to use STH can only obtain it if prescribed by a physician, the only supply source remains the black market. And this is certainly another reason why some athletes might not have been very happy with the effect of the purchased com-pound. How could he, if cheap HCG was passed off as expensive STH? Since both compounds are available as dry substances, all that would be needed is a new label of Serono's Saizen or Lilly's Humatrope on the HCG ampule. It is no longer fun when somebody is paying $200 for 5000 I.U. of HCG, only worth $12, and thinking that he just purchased 4 I.U. of STH. And if you think this happens only to novices and to the ignorant, ask Ben Johnson. "Big Ben," who during three tests within five days showed an above-limit testosterone level, was not a victim of his own stupidity but more likely the victim of fraud. 'According to statistics by the German Drug Administration, 42% of the HGH vials confiscated on the North American black market are fakes." (Der Spiegel, no. 11, 1993.) One can only say, "Poor Ben." Even Deutsche Apothekerzeitung is aware of this problem. The magazine wrote in its issue no. 26 of 07/01/93 in the article "Wachstumshormon--Praparate: Arzneimittelf5lschungen in Bodybuilder-Szene": "The currently-known cases are traded with Dutch or Russian labels... in addition to a display of labels in the Dutch or Russian lan-guage the fakes are distinguished from the original product, in-sofar as the dry substance is not present as lyophilic but present as loose powder. The fakes confiscated so far use the name "Humatrope 16" under the name of Lilly Company (with Dutch denomination) or "Somatogen" (in Russian)." Nowhere can this much money be made except by faking STH. Who has ever held original growth hormones in his hand and known how.they should look?
4. In a few very rare cases the body reacts by developing-antibodies to the exogenous STH, thus making it ineffective.
Before discussing the extremely difficult matter of dosage and intake the following question suggests itself: Generally speaking who is taking growth hormones? A whole lot of athletes as the following quotation suggests: "Charlie Francis, the Canadian athletic trainer of Ben Johnson tells how he improved the performance of Ben and numerous other Olympic athletes by the use of growth hormones in 1983. Francis also had conclusive evidence that the U.S.-American field and track athletes were using growth hormones. In a 1989 interview with a pro bodybuilder, an interview not meant for publication, this massive athlete made clear that he was convinced that almost all professional top athletes were using Protropin. He also said that it did not bother him if the IFBB were to introduce doping tests for men in 1990 as long as there would be no testing for growth hormones (Anabolic Reference Update, June 1989, no. 11). "it is highly suspected that the top Ms. 0 competitors use this product to help them attain their incredibly rippled muscles while still looking like women." (Anabolic Reference Guide, 5th Issue, 1990, W N. Phillips.) Most top bodybuilders using Growth Hormone (GH) feel that insulin activates it. One top pro was rumored to have been using 12 I. U. of GH per day in preparation for his last WBF contest. He swears that GH only works with insulin." (Muscle Media 2000 ' October/ November 1993, no. 34.)" And shortly before the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles, U.S. researchers succeeded in synthetically manufacturing the hormone. This hormone which cannot be detected with current testing methods immediately prepared American athletes throughout the country for the games in California. After reports of success the drug became the secret runner on the doping market. The football pro Lyle Alzado, who died of brain tumor, shortly before his death confessed that he had taken HGH for 16 weeks - and he claimed that 80% of all American football pros do so, too. Ben Johnson, who in 1988 in Seoul was caught with anabolics, admitted to the investigating committee of the Canadian government that he had tried the Growth Hormone. He had paid $ 10,000 for ten bottles of HGH. According to Johnson, his physician, George Astaphan, had also designed programs for his colleagues Mark McKoy, Angella Issajenko, and Desai Williams. Hurdle sprinter Juli Rochelean who toddy runs records for Switzerland under the name Baumann procured HGH on the black market of the bodybuilder scene in Montreal... Among women Gail Devers won the 100 meters (1992 Olympic Games in Barcelona, the auth.) after havingjust overcome a severe thyroid condition, a well-known side effect of taking HGH. Such suspicions are reinforced by current market data. The two U.S. companies Genentech and Eli Lilly produced about 800 million dollars of HGH in 1992. Genentech alone reported an eleven percent production increase compared to last year. Chemists incessantly emphasize that the drug should only be manufactured for use by persons with stunted growth. The U.S.Food and Drug Administration, however, sees it differently: the U.S. government currently includes HGH on the list of forbidden drugs and 'threatens up to five years of,prison for illegal possession of the drug." (Der Spiegel, no. I I of 03/15/93). "Many of the top strength athletes use HGH and the cost of its use ran as high as $30,000/year for one particular pro bodybuilder. Short term users (8 week duration) will spend up to $150 per daily dosage. And because the top athletes are rumored to use it, HGH lust in the lower ranks has become more rampant." (Daniel Duchaine, Underground Steroid Handbook 2.)
The question of the right dosage, as well as the type and duration of application, Is very difficult to answer. Since there is no scientific research showing how STH should be taken for performance improvement, we can only rely on empirical data, that is experimental values. The respective manufacturers indicate that in cases of hypophysially stunted growth due to lacking or insufficient release of growth hormones by the hypophysis, a weekly average dose of 0.3 I.U./week per pound of body weight should be taken. An athlete weighing 200 pounds, therefore, would have to inject 60 I.U. weekly. The dosage would be divided into three intramuscular injections of 20 I.U. each. Subcutaneous injections (under the skin) are another form of intake which, however, would have to be injected daily, usually 8 I.U. per day. Top athletes usually inject 4-16 I.U~day. Ordinarily, daily subcutaneous injections are preferred Since STH has a half-life time of less than one hour, it is not surprising that some athletes divide their daily dose into three or four subcutaueous injections of 2-4 I.U. each. Application of regular, small dosages seems to bring the most effective results. This also has its reasons: When STH is injected, serum concentration in the blood rises quickly, meaning that the effect is almost immediate. As we know, STH stimulates the liver to produce and release somatomedins and insulin-like growth factors which in turn effect the desired results in the body. Since the liver can only produce a limited amount of these substances, we doubt that larger STH injections will induce the liver to produce instantaneously a larger quantity of somatomedins and insulin-like growth factors. it seems more likely that the liver will react more favorably to smaller dosages.
If the STH solution is injected subcutaneously several consecutive times at the same point of injection, a loss of fat tissue is possible. Therefore, the point of injection, or even better, the entire side of the body, should be continuously changed in order to avoid a loss of local fat tissue (lipoathrophy) in the injection cell. One thing has manifested itself over the years: The effect of STH is dosage-dependent. This means either invest a lot of money and do it right or do not even begin. Half-hearted attempts are condemned to failure. Minimum effective dosages seem to start at 4 I.U. per day. For comparison: the hypophysis of a healthy, adult releases 0.5-1.5 I.U. growth hormones daily. The duration of intake usually depends on the athlete's financial resources. Our experience is that STH is taken over a prolonged period, from at least six weeks to several months. It is interesting to note that the effect of STH does not stop after a few weeks; this usually allows for continued improvements at a steady dosage. Bodybuilders who have had positive results with STH have reported that the built-up strength and, in particular, the newlygained muscle system were essentially maintained after discontinuance of the product. The American physician, Dr. William N. Taylor, confirms this statement in his book Anabolic Steroids and the Athlete, where on page 75 he writes: "Evidence for increased muscle number (hyperplasia) in athletes stems from their statements that the increased muscular size and strength remain after the HGH therapy has been discontinued. In fact, there may be further muscular size and strength gains as the training-induced hypertrophy continues in the month beyond."
It remains to be clarified what happens with the insulin and LT-3 thyroid hormone. Athletes who take - STH in their build-up phase usually do not need exogenous insulin. It is recommended, in this case, that the athlete eats a complete meal every three hours, result ing in 6-7 meals daily. This causes the body to continuously release insulin so that the blood sugar level does not fall too low. The use of LT-3 thyroid hormones, in this phase, is carried out reluctantly by athletes. In any case, you must have a physician check the thyroid hormone level during the intake of STH. Simultaneous use of ana bolic/androgenic steroids and/or Clenbuterol is usually appropri ate. During the preparation for a competition the use of thyroid hormones steadily increases. Sometimes insulin is taken together with STH, as well as with steroids and Clenbuterol. Apart from the high damage potential that exogenous insulin can-have in non-diabetics, incorrect use will simply and plainly make you FAT! Too much insulin activates certain enzymes which convert glucose into glycerol and finally into triglyceride. Too little insulin, especially dur ing a diet, reduces the anabolic effect of STH. The solution to this dilemma- Visiting a qualified physician who advises the athlete during this undertaking and who, in the event of exogenous in sulin supply, checks the blood sugar level and urine periodically. According to what we have heard so far, athletes usually inject intermediately-effective insulin having a maximum duration of effect of 24 hours once a day. Human insulin such as Depot-H Insulin Hoechst is generally used. Briefly-effective insulin with a maximum duration of effect of eight hours is rarely used by athletes. Again a human insulin such as H-Insulin Hoechst is preferred.
The undesired effect of growth hormones, the so-called side effects, are also a very interesting and hotly-discussed issue. Above all it must be said: STH has none of the typical side effects of anabolic/ androgenic steroids including reduced endogenous testosterone production, acne, hair loss, aggressiveness, elevated estrogen level, virilization symptoms in women, and increased water and salt retention. The main side effects that are possible with STH are an abnormally small concentration of glucose in the Wood (hypoglycemia) and an inadequate thyroid function. In some cases antibodies against growth hormones are developed but are clinically irrelevant. What about the horror stories about Acromegaly, bone deformation, heart enlargement, organ conditions, gigantism, and early death- In order to answer this question a clear differentiation must be made between humans before and after puberty. The growth plates in a person continue to grow in length until puberty. After puberty neither an endogenous hypersection of growth hormones nor an excessive exogenous supply of STH can cause additional growth in the length of the bones. Abnormal size (gigantism) initially goes hand in hand with remarkable body strength and muscular hardness in the afflicted; later, if left untreated, it ends in weakness and death. Again, this is only possible in pre-pubescent humans who also suffer from an inadequate gonadal function (hypogonadism). Humans who suffer from an endogenous hypersecretion after puberty and whose normal growth is completed can also suffer from Acromegaly. Bones become wider but not longer. There is a progressive growth in the hands and feet, and enlargement of features due to the growth of the lower jaw and nose. Heart muscle and kidneys can also gain in weight and size. In the beginning all of this goes hand in hand with increased body strength and muscular hardness; it ends, however, in fatigue, weakness, diabetes, heart conditions, and early death.
What the authorities like to do now is to present extreme cases of athletes suffering from these malfunctions in order to discourage others and to drum into athletes the fact that with the exogenous supply of growth hormones they would suffer the same destiny This, however, is very unlikely, as reality has proven. Among the numerous athletes using STH comparatively few are seven feet tall Neanderthalers with a protruded lower jaw, deformed skull, clawlike hands, thick lips, and prominent bone plates who walk around in size 25 shoes in order to avoid any misunderstandings, we do not want to disguise the possible risks of exogenous STH use in adults and healthy humans, but one should at least try to be open-minded. Acromegaly, diabetes, thyroid insufficiency, heart muscle hypertrophy, high blood pressure, and enlargement of the kidneys are theoretically possible if STH is used excessively over prolonged periods of time; however, in reality and particularly when it comes to the external attributes, these are rarely present. Tests have shown no causal relation between treatment with somatropin and a possible higher risk of leukemia. Some athletes report headaches, nausea, vomiting, and visual disturbances during the first weeks of intake. These symptoms disappear in most cases even with continued intake. The most common problems with STH occur when the athlete intends to inject insulin in addition to STH. We know two competing German bodybuilders who, because of improper insulin injections, fell into comas lasting several weeks.
Anabolic Member
thanx kronik I think I will go for the 200mg eod.. Thanx you Insallmental also, but don;t understand what you mean when you say it would be a piss poor dicision for me to run it at that level. I agree I am not ready for hgh yet but am willing to research and learn as much as possible before I start, as this was my next proposed cycle..thanx again fellas..
Banned
what i mean, is that, there are alot of better choices than throwing in HGH, having a body at your level. no offense. HGH is too complicated/dangerous a substance to be using at your level and experience. if you just ran some stacked test cycles correctly, you could achieve your goal, rather than throwing in HGH.
just trying to help you out bro.
Anabolic Member
[QUOTE=itsallmental]what i mean, is that, there are alot of better choices than throwing in HGH, having a body at your level.
No offense taking bro. But just curious what level you think my body is, just cause I am not thick and huge does not mean I am not strong and in shape, as I said before I am proposing this cycle, and researching hgh for my sport, before I give it a shot, for all you know i could be an elite athlete.
But anyway thanx for all the info and good reaading on hgh, and do you really think there is that much of a risk for sides, maybe you could just map out the best and most effective way for me to gain lean mass and increase strenght using growth a safe an effective way...I would really appreciate your input and help on this matter....
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