My Cool Doctor and Liver Toxic Orals!!!!!

[Lozgod]

I went to my doctor today for colonoscopy results (and anyone that sais they dont hurt is lying). So I asked, off the record how bad are oral steroids on the liver. His name is Dr. Barbell by the way, that is the God to honest truth, anyway, he said you would have to take them non-stop for about 5 years to really do significant damage to your liver, or over a period of 10-20 years depending on the frequency.

He explained the reason they elevate liver values is they are designed to survive the first pass through the liver, therefore they are toxic to it.

On the downside he said your liver goes back to normal after you stop the orals, however when you begin taking them again it almost immediately goes back to the level it was when you stopped the last cycle.

He recommended I stay away from HGH and IGF-1, not because of the drugs themself but because he knows I suffer from tendonitis and had carpel tunnel about 4 years ago.

[H-BOL]

good info bro... so basicly Live toxic orals are OVer-Rated eh lozgod?

[Lozgod]

good info bro... so basicly Live toxic orals are OVer-Rated eh lozgod?

According to a guy that spent 10 years in school to learn about the body it is.

[Bigg Dreamer]

sweet doc man i wish mine was that cool he about had a fit when i asked to get my test lvl checked and lectured me on how bad it is for the body to raise your test lvls and blah blah blah

[H-BOL]

good to know then.. wooooo i love my orals

[nsa]

Like the study i posted said....

[Lozgod]

Like the study i posted said....

Yup, like the study you posted.


Still didnt prove Milk Thistle interferes with oral AAS's effectiveness.

It's all in the interest in research and safety no flaming. Peace.

[KAEW44]

Thats a good thread here, but i have to say it also depends on the person using them and their stats, i two people out of many that use AS tha actually complained about liver pain halfway through taking Dbol and also with winstrol tabs, maybe it was something else that caused this for them but its a true story. However i do think the steroid cycling was designed to provide a degree of saftey so people wouldnt have to use them all year around and then hurt themselves, so basically lets support the orals!!!

[nsa]

It could have been lower back pumps from the dbol...

[Lozgod]

Thats a good thread here, but i have to say it also depends on the person using them and their stats, i two people out of many that use AS tha actually complained about liver pain halfway through taking Dbol and also with winstrol tabs, maybe it was something else that caused this for them but its a true story. However i do think the steroid cycling was designed to provide a degree of saftey so people wouldnt have to use them all year around and then hurt themselves, so basically lets support the orals!!!

How can you say my liver hurts? It could be GallBladder, Pancreas, Kidneys, Muscular, Skeletal, etc. linked pains. That doesnt make a whole lot of sense.

[nsa]

Probably just lower back pumps from the dbol and they are mistaking it for liver pain...

[TMac48]

If this is true, i may go ahead and run my D-bol for 10 weeks. Anybody see why I shouldn't?

[H-BOL]

If this is true, i may go ahead and run my D-bol for 10 weeks. Anybody see why I shouldn't?

still depends on how many cycles you've done bro

[TMac48]

this is my 3rd.

[SV-1]

All oral cycle here I come!





Not.

[TheMudMan]

Has your doctor done studies on this? Have test groups? I would not take one persons word on it no matter if he's a doctor or not..... JMO

[Lozgod]

Has your doctor done studies on this? Have test groups? I would not take one persons word on it no matter if he's a doctor or not..... JMO

No he just pretty much explained why things are toxic to the liver and how oral steroids worked. I mean he knows I use them and I trust his opinion. I personally don't need a study to prove everything I am told, common sense plays a big role. Common sense sais he went to school for 10 years to learn about this stuff so I believe him.

[TheMudMan]

No he just pretty much explained why things are toxic to the liver and how oral steroids worked. I mean he knows I use them and I trust his opinion. I personally don't need a study to prove everything I am told, common sense plays a big role. Common sense sais he went to school for 10 years to learn about this stuff so I believe him.

Well I guess you keep believing what your told then....... without studies his view is just that his own view with no scientific proof to back his views on orals and thier toxicity.

Good luck

[Lozgod]

Well I guess you keep believing what your told then....... without studies his view is just that his own view with no scientific proof to back his views on orals and thier toxicity.

Good luck

I see what you are saying. Thanks for the advice.

[UrbanDawg]

No he just pretty much explained why things are toxic to the liver and how oral steroids worked. I mean he knows I use them and I trust his opinion. I personally don't need a study to prove everything I am told, common sense plays a big role. Common sense sais he went to school for 10 years to learn about this stuff so I believe him.

I hope your guy is right

[Lozgod]

I hope your guy is right

Yeah me too, he is responsible for my health, not just AAS related either.

[usualsuspect]

I'll take practical knowledge over textbook theory any day of the week. But thanks for reaffirming what we already learned.

[Anhydro78]

If I even mention Halotesin, everybodys like whoa thats some toxic orals!!!! But the guy I get them from is prescibed a 10mg Halo E/D nonstop!!!!! His doctor doesnt think it will harm him. But he is a drama queen and thought he was having a heart attack after taking them for three weeks. So I get them real cheap!!!!!!!

[Steroids101]

If this is true, i may go ahead and run my D-bol for 10 weeks. Anybody see why I shouldn't?

Because your liver values go back to however low they were before imediatly, so you would still pay in the long run. I think.

[daem]

i think it is spectacular that his name is Dr. Barbell.



and doubly ironic that it sounds like he is a proponent of AAS.

[Lozgod]

i think it is spectacular that his name is Dr. Barbell.



and doubly ironic that it sounds like he is a proponent of AAS.

Whats even stranger is that he was not my usual doctor. I had pull some tendons after missing the gym for about 4 months and trying to pick up where I left off. So my doctor was out, and he was in.
So....I met him after a gym injury
His name is Barbell
I wouldn't say he is a proponet of steroids, just very educated in the area of HRT and testosterone for athletic improvement. He didnt embrace my steroid use but didn't ostracize it either.

[Mealticket]

No he just pretty much explained why things are toxic to the liver and how oral steroids worked. I mean he knows I use them and I trust his opinion. I personally don't need a study to prove everything I am told, common sense plays a big role. Common sense sais he went to school for 10 years to learn about this stuff so I believe him.

Med school was only 4 years, then a 2-3 year residency. Not that i know what UNIV he attended but i think it would be a pretty same bet that the section on liver toxicity values for oral steroids was pretty short lived. Half the chit people use were never intended for human comsumption so it's not like he read a case study on that; unless he really did go to school for 10 years and is also a VET. Believe everything you see, half of what you read, and even less of what you hear!!

[Lozgod]

OK I see what you two guys are saying, believe me I do. The thing is he is a doctor, and I don't know what studies he has seen in his lifetime, he may have even used them in the past, he is an older guy and I know guys that say in the late 70's you could get Dbols from your doc with a script.

I did 4 years in prison, it was a survival mechanism to not trust what people say, however he is a doctor, his job is health and the body. Not trusting your doctor on health matters is like not trusting your lawyer on law matters, your mechanic on your car, your barber on your hair, your HVAC with your central air unit, I mean you shouldn't trust everything everyone sais, but there is a point where you can.

Med school was only 4 years, then a 2-3 year residency. Not that i know what UNIV he attended but i think it would be a pretty same bet that the section on liver toxicity values for oral steroids was pretty short lived. Half the chit people use were never intended for human comsumption so it's not like he read a case study on that; unless he really did go to school for 10 years and is also a VET. Believe everything you see, half of what you read, and even less of what you hear!!

[tgreen]

If Dr. Barbell (too cool) is a gastroenterologist, then you can bet your ass he knows about the liver. The liver is their specialty as it is considered part of the gastrointestinal/digestive system. Gastroenterologists do colonoscopes, endoscopes, etc. They are always consulted when someone's liver goes haywire with cirrhosis, etc. Im an RN and Ive asked several Docs about steroids-Internal Medicine docs, endocrinologists, gastroenterologists, etc. and they all pretty much say liver damage and other side effects are hyped as long as steroids are cycled. But there are always people who dont cycle and are predisposed to complications so you take a risk when using. Then again, you take a risk getting into your car everyday.

[TheMudMan]

If Dr. Barbell (too cool) is a gastroenterologist, then you can bet your ass he knows about the liver. The liver is their specialty as it is considered part of the gastrointestinal/digestive system. Gastroenterologists do colonoscopes, endoscopes, etc. They are always consulted when someone's liver goes haywire with cirrhosis, etc. Im an RN and Ive asked several Docs about steroids-Internal Medicine docs, endocrinologists, gastroenterologists, etc. and they all pretty much say liver damage and other side effects are hyped as long as steroids are cycled. But there are always people who dont cycle and are predisposed to complications so you take a risk when using. Then again, you take a risk getting into your car everyday.

I also feel that a lot of it is over exagerated but with out studies these things you hear are worthless. I would rather be safe than sorry later.

[kingofmasters]

Although i'm not a doctor yet, I can pretty much say this is crap!

Either you misheard him or somebody has to sew him for malpractice!

Like Pheedno said most steroids were never meant for human use but more important where are the studies backing him up?
Not only that but cycling isn't pushing the limit; By this I mean stop at exactly the point of hurting the body in the shortterm (so immediate pains) but stopping at a margin WELL BELOW that point (Not to mention the Long Term damages --> Like smoking, real damage occurs a long time after usage, if you have shorrterm complaints that basically means you are really PUSHING It to the point where the body says stop --> The Longterm damage therefor will be even greater).
Second If I open my studybooks and look up Androgens and Anabolics the dosages prescribed are even enough to make womendosages look like insane heavy cycles (e.g. One page says: a treatment with Anavar @ 2mg ED for 4 weeks!).

But what bothers me the most is that this guy seems to know nothing about the liver or at least the practical usage of steroids; Most oral steroids pass the liver two times, the first one can be avoided by injecting it (like with Winstrol) but seeing this mostly is a Hydrolysis-reaction (in the case of Alkylated steroids at least) surely Liverstress is somewhat less but not much (I used to believe it was like 30% less stress --> from theoritical calculations, but after reading some researches this really depends on the individual and can mean up to 95% less stress but in most cases is 5%-15%), this means that on the contrary to what he says the first pass can be ignored when talking about liversafety-precautions but the second (the actual "destroying the compound") is the significant one!

so summarized:

1) Most steroids not intended for humans
2) No studies backing him up that he mentioned
3) We cycle using a Very High Safety Margin
4) He maybe is referring to medical dosages ("Textbook stuff")
5) First pass isn't the one we are most worried about

Greets and always stay critical,
Kingofmasters

[powerlifter]

Has your doctor done studies on this? Have test groups? I would not take one persons word on it no matter if he's a doctor or not..... JMO

me too !!!

[chicamahomico]

Nice post KofM. I would like to offer some points in regards to your summary.

1) Most of them are or were at one time.
2) Agreed. Should be noted that pertinnet studies can be tough to come by because of duration, doseages, cycling.
3) A high safety margin is always a good thing IMO but unless you can quantify it somehow it doesn' really mean anything.
4) Some prescribed doseages are low relative to bb standards and some are far in excess of what anyone I know would ever take (Anadrol for example, clinical doses recommended to be in excess of 150mg a day for 6 months minimum)
5) I have heard this before but can you explain exactly what you mean or how this works.

so summarized:

1) Most steroids not intended for humans
2) No studies backing him up that he mentioned
3) We cycle using a Very High Safety Margin
4) He maybe is referring to medical dosages ("Textbook stuff")
5) First pass isn't the one we are most worried about

Greets and always stay critical,
Kingofmasters

[Lozgod]

The likely hood of a study to be done on the safety of steroids is obsurd. That would be like them doing a study of cocaine and its safety. It isn't gonna happen.

Heres what I dont understand, I bet everyone here uses steroids, probaly just a lucky guess, and does so with out studies. A doctor that specializes in the digestive system that the liver is part of makes a statement, and he is wrong, or isnt making a statement backed on non-existant stidies. He knows about medicines and he knows about the liver.

He shouldn't be sued for malpractice it was off the record.

And I cant think of a single steroid that wasnt invented for human use other than EQ maybe.

And NSA posted a study that backs what my doctor said in the supplement forum. It is under a thread called milk thistle.

There are unscientific studies of using orals and no liver damage showing up. One I can think of is called Arnold Schwartzaneger. He lived off of orals for months at a time. Namely Dbol, and to the first genius thats gonna say, well post a study on him saying that, I don't have one but if you don't know that you either reside in a cave, are brain dead, or have zero knowledge on the matter.

[AZTKWORRIOR]

I have studied a fair amount of human biology in my day. I really think this doctor, is completely right. Most healthy humans, can take orals for yrs and have perfectly good liver values. I have no idea where the idea that taking orals was limited to 6 wks or less, although for a steroid cycle this is effective, in clinical setting patients sometimes are for yrs with certain types of 17aa meds, with no problems. I would never run a long cycle of orals but then again with proper monotoring I don't think it would be a problem.

[TheMudMan]

The likely hood of a study to be done on the safety of steroids is obsurd. That would be like them doing a study of cocaine and its safety. It isn't gonna happen.

Heres what I dont understand, I bet everyone here uses steroids, probaly just a lucky guess, and does so with out studies. A doctor that specializes in the digestive system that the liver is part of makes a statement, and he is wrong, or isnt making a statement backed on non-existant stidies. He knows about medicines and he knows about the liver.

He shouldn't be sued for malpractice it was off the record.

And I cant think of a single steroid that wasnt invented for human use other than EQ maybe.

And NSA posted a study that backs what my doctor said in the supplement forum. It is under a thread called milk thistle.

There are unscientific studies of using orals and no liver damage showing up. One I can think of is called Arnold Schwartzaneger. He lived off of orals for months at a time. Namely Dbol, and to the first genius thats gonna say, well post a study on him saying that, I don't have one but if you don't know that you either reside in a cave, are brain dead, or have zero knowledge on the matter.

Why would a study done using steroids be obsurd? Most of the stuff we use either are for animals or were made for patients to treat for different types illnesses.

Just because he's a doctor in the field you say he's in still doesn't mean he knows what these drugs will do over long term use without some type of research and test subjects.

I would never go as far as saying your doctor should be sued...... think about it..... we our doing this and supervising our own AAS use. So if I were to have some sort of liver damage and I did as you did with my doc then I would feel it's my fault for taking the risk by using in the first place.

I can name a few AAS that were made for humans but I will give you the one that was used to help children and women. Anavar. Steroids became drugs for bodybuilding because bodybuilders would read, see, or whatever the effect they had on patients that were using them for a particular illness.

I haven't seen the post by NSA but I will look at it.

Also, about Arnold...... It's either know or rumored that he has had kidney problems...... also, do you have his health records? If not you have no idea what problems he's had from AAS use.

Bro I'm not trying to cut you or your doctor down. He may be the best in his fiels but with out concreat evidence I wouldn't belive a word of it. We are all taking a risk but you still need to play it smart.

[TheMudMan]

I have studied a fair amount of human biology in my day. I really think this doctor, is completely right. Most healthy humans, can take orals for yrs and have perfectly good liver values. I have no idea where the idea that taking orals was limited to 6 wks or less, although for a steroid cycle this is effective, in clinical setting patients sometimes are for yrs with certain types of 17aa meds, with no problems. I would never run a long cycle of orals but then again with proper monotoring I don't think it would be a problem.

They are not taking in the amount we use. Not all 17aa's are limited to six weeks it's the toxicity of the 17aa being used that dictates the length of use. At least what we use it for.

[Lozgod]

Bro I'm not trying to cut you or your doctor down. He may be the best in his fiels but with out concreat evidence I wouldn't belive a word of it. We are all taking a risk but you still need to play it smart.

I am not taking it that way at all, I love seeing both sides of the coin. All I am saying is, if he was a Plastic Surgeon, or an Orthodonist, I would be skeptical. He specializes in the digestive system. Even if he didnt know a thing about Dbol, I am sure he knows about 17-aa's.

The main purpose of cycling isnt for the livers benefit, it is for the hormonal systems benefit.

If you know some older guys in the gym that juiced back in the day, they will tell you, Dbol was the king of roids in their time, people took them like candy. With all the knowledge we have now, we know we can get better results cycling, and stacking, and using specific steroids for specific goals. I would never do an oral cycle, nor would I recommend it. I love test bro, I love the feeling I get and I love the results. I am just sharing an experience I had.

[TheMudMan]

I am not taking it that way at all, I love seeing both sides of the coin. All I am saying is, if he was a Plastic Surgeon, or an Orthodonist, I would be skeptical. He specializes in the digestive system. Even if he didnt know a thing about Dbol, I am sure he knows about 17-aa's.

The main purpose of cycling isnt for the livers benefit, it is for the hormonal systems benefit.

If you know some older guys in the gym that juiced back in the day, they will tell you, Dbol was the king of roids in their time, people took them like candy. With all the knowledge we have now, we know we can get better results cycling, and stacking, and using specific steroids for specific goals. I would never do an oral cycle, nor would I recommend it. I love test bro, I love the feeling I get and I love the results. I am just sharing an experience I had.

Cool because that isn't my intentions are........ and yes seeing and posting about both sides of this topic is fun in a way.....

[Lozgod]

Cool because that isn't my intentions are........ and yes seeing and posting about both sides of this topic is fun in a way.....

When everyone is in total agreement then something definetly cant be trusted.