Associate Member
Heres a question that hopefully someone could shed some light on. Im a college baseball player who is currently taking deca. 2 years ago i had Tommy John surgery, in which they took part of my hamstring tendon and put it in my elbow. the tendon is suppost to act in place of the torn ligament. i know that deca induces college synthesis so will my deca use strengthen the new tendon in my elbow? or not because its not suppost to be there in the first place? what are your thoughts?
Anabolic Member
My thoughts are that i developed tendonitis when i was on deca. It still bothers me occasionally to this day, its been almost 2 years since that cycle.
Banned
Actually Demon it was probably the strength gains on that cycle that gave you the tendonitis. Deca is great at lubing the joints and wouldn't give you the dryness that say Eq does, aggravating the condition.Originally Posted by Demon Deacon
The only chemical assistance that will help you with actual tendon healing is GH. I just started my fist cycle of it this week and will let you know how it goes.
Associate Member
so the collegen synthesis that deca induces only effects tendons in there natural place?
Anabolic Member
i agree... no more deca for me, i ended up with something like tennis elbow when i came off... no thnx (6 months later still flaring)
Senior Member
i love deca for joint pain..imo deca is great for sumone with bad knees,elbows, etc.
Anabolic Member
ya, i felt GREAT on it, then a month after i came off, tendon/joint pain... dunno...
Banned
whats the min dose you think i could use just for the join pain part, i wanted to throw it in with my next cycle just for that now the growth
Associate Member
bump
Anabolic Member
You are not quite correct here, Toolman.
I agree that Demon's tendonitis was probably due to the stress he put on his system while cycling. However, GH is NOT the only compound that heals tendons. Deca, Equipoise (EQ) and Anavar (Oxandralone) are all known to promote collagen synthesis.
BTW...if you you play any sports that require explosive movments (jumping, sprinting, throwing, swinging), then stay away from winstrol which is notorious for promoting tendon damage.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 11-02-2004 at 04:07 PM.
Anabolic Member
NOTE: The following article, written by AnimalMass, is not supported by any known studies. Several members of the board looked for information to support AnimalMass' opinions yet could not find it. I'm leaving this here as a reference, but readers should understand that the article is OPINION not fact.
If someone finds information to support this post, please add it to this thread and PM me because I'd like to know what you find.
Originally posted by AnimalMass on competitivemuscle.com, and reposted by Nekrawulf on SuperiorMuscle.
While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.
Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.
Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.
Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.
You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.
Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.
While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.
To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.
Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood
Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.
Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.
Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.
These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:
Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days
Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.
Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.
Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 11-20-2004 at 10:34 AM.
Banned
I stand corrected then. However if the tendon actually heals with Deca and Eq, why is my pain relief only while on cycle with deca? As for the Eq, it is cycles with that that aggravate tendonitis for me the most.
Anabolic Member
The reaons you feel joint and tendon comfort while using deca is that Deca not only promotes collagen synthesis, it also promotes water retention which helps ease pain in joints and tendons. While EQ promotes collagen synthesis, it does not increase water retention nearly as much as Deca. In fact, one could say that EQ does not promote water retention at all. Therefore, one would feel more joint comfort on Deca than on EQ.
Writer
I don't like this "Animal Mass" re-post. I've searched every available journal and have never found supporting evidence for his contention that Testosterone gives you the "tendons of a very old man" nor have I been able to confirm most of his numbers on nearly every other substance.
And, not surprisingly, he cites zero references.
My deca profile, if you look it up in this forum, cites actual doses and studies on deca and bone mineral/collagen synthesis. The "Animal Mass" post cites nothing, gives no references, and I can't confirm the validity of it, despite my efforts.
Anabolic Member
It's a nice change when people challenge me on references. People used to tease me a bit about my constantly asking for references.
I did not bother to check for references on this, because this is not the first time I've heard these claims about the compounds he mentioned.
It is true that testosterone decreases collagen synthesis over time. It's true that EQ, VAR and Deca promote collagen sythesis and that winny can make tendons prone to damage.
I will do a bit more research so I can post references. Thanks for keeping me on my toes, bro.
Writer
As I said, maybe all of this Animal-Mass-post is true...but I haven't been able to confirm...well...almost any of the numbers he gives.
Associate Member
Thanks for the information! I tore a lower bicep tendon due to low collagen levels due to high doses of testosterone. I learned the hard way but I hope this information you posted will make a.s. users realize what high doses of testosterone will lower your collagen levels and effect your tendons. I know what it sounds like for a lower bicep tendon to tear. It sounds just like a t-shirt ripping. Not fun at all and takes 6-8 weeks to heal if it is only a partial tear. If you completely tear the tendon and your bicep rolls than surgery is the only answer and you will be out of the gym for a long time. Test is cheap and the gains are great but you pay the price in the long run. Lower doses of test with deca, eq, and primobolan are a safer choice.
OTE=BASK8KACE]Originally posted by AnimalMass on competitivemuscle.com, and reposted by Nekrawulf on SuperiorMuscle.
While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.
Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.
Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.
Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.
You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.
Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.
While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.
To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.
Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood
Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.
Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.
Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.
These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:
Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days
Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.
Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.
Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.[/QUOTE]
Anabolic Member
im still wondering... if an aas promotes collegen sythesis and healing of a tendon (like deca, primo, NOT winstrol) when you cycle off does your natural production dip below normal for a while? I used deca, felt great, but when i came off, i had tendonitis in my right arm from shoulder to wrist... maybe from over exersion (i was on 500 test 400 deca) are you guys suggesting that if i use deca again, and go easy, my tendons may heal and stay healed off cycle?
Member
Does it have the same effects on everyone though is what I want to know..
Anabolic Member
I urge you guys to hit the net and try to find some info about this. I'm looking too.
Anabolic Member
BTW, the studies for Equipoise will be about horses, not humans.
Anabolic Member
Steroids May Improve Tendon Repair After Surgery
posted by FContact on atomicalmuscle
Steroids May Improve Tendon Repair After Surgery
Reuters Health
SOURCE: American Journal of Sports Medicine, June 2004.
By Merritt McKinney
Thursday, July 1, 2004
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Anabolic steroids are against the rules for professional athletes, but preliminary research suggests that steroids may help repair a shoulder injury that affects many professional and weekend athletes.
In lab experiments using bioengineered tendons, researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill found that tendons treated with an anabolic steroid were stronger than untreated tendons.
"In a highly experimental model, anabolic steroids do appear to improve the quality of rotator cuff tendon tissue," lead author Dr. Spero G. Karas told Reuters Health.
Most likely, steroids help by improving protein production in each tendon cell or by boosting the way tendon cells communicate with each other, Karas said.
But don't expect doctors to start prescribing anabolic steroids to people who have rotator cuff surgery any time soon. Karas cautioned that much more testing needs to be done.
"If enough testing can conclude that this treatment is effective, then of course we could attempt it in humans with difficult rotator cuff injuries," Karas said.
The rotator cuff is made up of the muscles and tendons that hold the upper arm bone to the shoulder. When the rotator cuff is injured, surgery may be performed to repair it. Unfortunately, healing after surgery is often incomplete and many people experience repeat rotator cuff injuries.
Anabolic steroids are known to build muscle mass and boost strength, so Karas and his colleagues set out to see whether steroids might improve rotator cuff healing.
The research involved bioengineered tendons developed by co-author Dr. Albert J. Banes. The researchers collected tendon samples from six people who were having rotator cuff surgery. Cells from these tendons were isolated and used to grow the bioengineered tendons.
Some of these tendons were treated with the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate, while others were not. Some tendons were also subjected to load testing, in which the tendons were stretched.
Tendons that had been treated with steroids and subjected to loading were stronger, denser and more elastic than other tendons, the researchers report in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. The steroid-treated tendons also had a more natural appearance than other tendons.
The research will not have an immediate impact on the treatment of rotator cuff injuries, but the research establishes a way to test the effect of mechanical stress and medications on tendon cells, Karas said.
"Any drug can be tested, but we chose an anabolic agent because of its successful background in treating patients with burns and other injuries," Karas said.
Another potential implication of the research, according to Karas, is that it "may permit us to manufacture a matrix of tissue that can be used to replace deficient human tissues."
Karas noted, "We are only in the embryonic phases of this work. We are a long way off, but the potential is exciting."
Anabolic Member
The following study is large. Look at the highlighted spots to find comments on collagen:
It concludes that "Supraphysiological doses of anabolic androgenic steroids enhance collagen synthesis, especially in soft connective tissues..."
HTML (Best) FORMAT:
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache...+adverse&hl=en
PDF FORMAT:
http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut...a/adversee.pdf
Anabolic Member
This is getting to be a nice little thread. I wish i could contribute more in the study area but i have some actual studying to do for my classes. If anyone needs any help in french let me know
Anabolic Member
Ca-va?This is getting to be a nice little thread. I wish i could contribute more in the study area but i have some actual studying to do for my classes. If anyone needs any help in french let me know
Parles-tu francais? Je parle un peu.
Je te souhaite bonne chance pour ton examen !!!
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 11-04-2004 at 06:53 PM.
Writer
Right yeah...I'm really looking for where AnimalMass got his exact numbers....like:
"Steroid X at dose Y will increase collagen synthesis by Z."
I recognize that many steroids increase collagen synthesis,but (for example) deca is often used at super-low doses (50mgs, E3W)....where some of the numbers in the AnimalMass thread come from are beyond me.
To be honest, I suspect they come from a Magic 8-ball or Ouija board.
Banned
no offence to any other mod but its nice to finally see somone who always wants solid evidence and referances for all these studies and never takes somthing as is. keep up the good work hooker *claps hands*
Anabolic Member
Merci, J'ai besoin de bonne chance.
Banned
Bonjour! i took french in 7th grade so thats as far as i go with french.
Writer
You can use as little as 50mgs every third-week and that will produce a 50% increase in procollagen type III aminoterminal peptide (PIIINP),which measures collagen synthesis. This is one of the studies I quoted in my deca profile, by the way...and it's a major reason I question AM's numbers.
Metabolism. 1990 Nov;39(11)39(11):1167-9.
Collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women during therapy with anabolic steroid or female sex hormones.
Hassager C, Jensen LT, Podenphant J, Riis BJ, Christiansen C.
Department of Clinical Chemistry, Glostrup Hospital, University of Copenhagen, Denmark.
The effect of anabolic steroid therapy and estrogen-progestogen substitution therapy on serum concentration of procollagen type III aminoterminal peptide (PIIINP), a measure of collagen synthesis, in postmenopausal women was studied in two double-blind studies: (1) 39 women allocated to treatment with either 50mg nandrolone decanoate as an intramuscular depot or placebo injections every third week for 1 year, and (2) 40 women allocated to receive either 2 mg 17 beta-estradiol plus 1 mg norethisterone acetate daily or placebo tablets for 1 year. Serum PIIINP was measured every 3 months during the study. Anabolic steroid therapy resulted in a more than 50% increase (P less than .001) in serum PIIINP at 3 months, which thereafter decayed but remained significantly increased throughout the study period. Serum PIIINP showed the same pattern during estrogen-progestogen therapy, but to a lesser degree. We conclude that anabolic steroids stimulate type III collagen synthesis in postmenopausal women, while estrogen-progestogen therapy may have such an effect, but only to a lesser degree.
Anabolic Member
Oh my gosh, this is the first time I've gotten caught with my pants down. I always ask for supporting studies!!! There are a few of us on the board that do that.
Anyway, I cannot find anything that supports the exact numbers. I don't know from where he got that information. So, I posted supporting info that at least shows that AAS promotes collagen synthesis.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 11-04-2004 at 06:52 PM.
Banned
i said mod bro not vet! i didnt forget about you! *claps for bask8face*
Anabolic Member
I am impressed with hooker he mod of a different color
Anabolic Member
That's called shamelessly fishing for compliments. --And it worked!i said mod bro not vet! i didnt forget about you! *claps for bask8face*
There's a small group of you that like to mangle my name. I know where you people live.
Banned
im from cuba you cant come get meThat's called shamelessly fishing for compliments. --And it worked!
There's a small group of you that like to mangle my name. I know where you people live.
Writer
I'll look up some studies on different steroids and their effects on collagen and bone mineral growth.
As a side note, BillyB and 'Vette often look for studies. We've all spoken regarding the need for more solid information and less B.S. on the boards.
Banned
I refuse to speak the language of cowards.....am I the only frog hater in here?!?
Banned
hey it was like 7 years ago
Anabolic Member
The Canadians, Belgians, French Guianese, and French are all cowards?
Banned
i sence a raping coming.
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