Run Starving??

[endgreed]

I know that someone else or a few people have discussed the issue of running in the morning with or without food preworkout, but I'm still confused. I don't want to lose my muscles along with fat when I run in the morning without eating first.

I read this book and it explained that anytime you run in the day, your body uses three energy sources: fat, carbohydrates, and protein. It didn't really explain the three but it said that when you run at a steady pace for around 30 minutes, your body burns half fat and half carbs. So you see, you do burn fat whenever you run. The book also said that when you run first thing in the morning without eating, your run will definitely be less intense and you will feel lathargic and totally like crap. I did it today and it was pretty uncomfortable, but I made it. Any thoughts on this?

[IronFreakX]

I know that someone else or a few people have discussed the issue of running in the morning with or without food preworkout, but I'm still confused. I don't want to lose my muscles along with fat when I run in the morning without eating first.

I read this book and it explained that anytime you run in the day, your body uses three energy sources: fat, carbohydrates, and protein. It didn't really explain the three but it said that when you run at a steady pace for around 30 minutes, your body burns half fat and half carbs. So you see, you do burn fat whenever you run. The book also said that when you run first thing in the morning without eating, your run will definitely be less intense and you will feel lathargic and totally like crap. I did it today and it was pretty uncomfortable, but I made it. Any thoughts on this?

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH

[audis4]

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHH

hahahahahahahah lol.

[C_Bino]

Well most people who do bodybuilding dont run anyways. They walk to just stay in the fatty acid oxidation zone. Yes you can burn carbs while you are exercising, hence why you would run on an empty stomach so there are none in reserve and you primarily hit fat.

There are really 4 levels of energy consumption. ATP, fast-glycolysis, slow-glycolysis and fatty acid oxidation. To put it simply they are used in order of duration of exercise and intensity. So quick hard movements are ATP (tennis player, powerlifter etc) Fast-glycolysis will kick in after ATP stores are depleted and this is usually around the 30 second mark (100m swimmer would start to dip into these) slow-glycolysis is similar and fatty acid oxidation is the last to use or the one used through most minimal work. So if you are walking for example your body will go into fatty acid oxidation.

[SMYL_GR8]

I know that someone else or a few people have discussed the issue of running in the morning with or without food preworkout, but I'm still confused. I don't want to lose my muscles along with fat when I run in the morning without eating first.

I read this book and it explained that anytime you run in the day, your body uses three energy sources: fat, carbohydrates, and protein. It didn't really explain the three but it said that when you run at a steady pace for around 30 minutes, your body burns half fat and half carbs. So you see, you do burn fat whenever you run. The book also said that when you run first thing in the morning without eating, your run will definitely be less intense and you will feel lathargic and totally like crap. I did it today and it was pretty uncomfortable, but I made it. Any thoughts on this?

Hmm, sounds like quite the comprehensive text you have got there. If I were you, I would at least take in 40-50g Whey protein, 5g glutamine and some small amount of carb (banana, for example) before running first thing in the morning.

[heavyhitter08]

I disagree, IMO you will reap the benefits from am cardio on a empty stomach. Like Bino said, doesn't mean you have to sit there for 1 hour running as fast as you can. Try increasing your incline to level 12-14 and keep your speed around 3-4. This will keep you on inclined brisk walk and try to target your HR at around 60-70 %

[SMYL_GR8]

I disagree, IMO you will reap the benefits from am cardio on a empty stomach. Like Bino said, doesn't mean you have to sit there for 1 hour running as fast as you can. Try increasing your incline to level 12-14 and keep your speed around 3-4. This will keep you on inclined brisk walk and try to target your HR at around 60-70 %

empty stomach=catabolism (not a benefit)

[C_Bino]

empty stomach=catabolism (not a benefit)

Take some BCAA's before you go or even one scoop of whey protein if you want to protect your muscles. But for fat loss I can tell you from personal experience empty stomach is THEE best way.

I mean its how most every bodybuilder does it that I have read/seen.

[cfiler]

Take some BCAA's before you go or even one scoop of whey protein if you want to protect your muscles. But for fat loss I can tell you from personal experience empty stomach is THEE best way.

I mean its how most every bodybuilder does it that I have read/seen.

Yup. When I'm cutting, I do loose quite abit more weight when doing am cardio on an empty stomach as opposed to after a meal.

[C_Bino]

Oh ya man I have tried it both ways and for sure empty stomach is better. It sometimes gives me stomach discomfort and I feel a little gassy for some reason which I cant explain but I feel great for doing it afterwards and it sets the whole day off right as well.

I dont lose muscle doing it either so Ima stick to it.

[SMYL_GR8]

Oh ya man I have tried it both ways and for sure empty stomach is better. It sometimes gives me stomach discomfort and I feel a little gassy for some reason which I cant explain but I feel great for doing it afterwards and it sets the whole day off right as well.

I dont lose muscle doing it either so Ima stick to it.

You earlier suggested BCAA's or one scoop of whey. Is this your regimen or were you making a helpful suggestion? In other words, when you say empty above, you mean no nutrients at all. Just clarifying.

[C_Bino]

You earlier suggested BCAA's or one scoop of whey. Is this your regimen or were you making a helpful suggestion? In other words, when you say empty above, you mean no nutrients at all. Just clarifying.

Oh ya sorry bro. I do take about 10g BCAA's before I do my cardio. So ya I see your point, its not technically an empty stomach. But I dont eat any food or anything.

[chest6]

Take some BCAA's before you go or even one scoop of whey protein if you want to protect your muscles. But for fat loss I can tell you from personal experience empty stomach is THEE best way.

I mean its how most every bodybuilder does it that I have read/seen.

agreed 100%. I have tried both ways a billion times and A.M. cardio just works much better..for me at least.

[AleX-69]

For me PWO cardio works best. It somehow keeps me looking fuller thru my cutting cycle. AM cardio drains me out more..

Well to each his own

[endgreed]

Thanks for everyone responding. I know that when you walk you burn 70% or more from just your stored fat. That's because it takes longer to burn from fat and walking is less intense and your body can utilize mainly this energy source. But the calories you burn will be a small amount when compared to running or jogging.

Here's my point: If you run before you eat in the morning, your body will not have carbohydrates to use so you would think you're just burning fat. But if fat burning is slower, how can your body meet the demand? I think it does by robbing your muscles, which have a lot of energy stored in them. Basically, I think you're screwed here, but I'm not sure.

I think the safest measure is to just eat and then have a better run with more energy so you can burn more calories overall. Then, eat far less but get all your nutrients and your body will know during or at the end of the day that you burned more calories and will take calories from fat stores to give your body it's needed calories. Anyways, that's what I read somewhere and it sounds good to me. I don't know what your body does when you run starving, and I sure as hell don't want to lose muscle along with this shitty fat. By the way, have you noticed how skinny and pewny marathon runners look? They look like ****ing skeletons.

[Ectoflab]

In my opinion, based on the reading I've done (and common sense), you will lose more weight if you eat first. To understand why, you have to consider the whole 24-hour day, not just the time period you do your cardio in. I'll try to explain:

In a 24 hour period, you will gain or lose weight according to this equation:

Calories Ingested - Calories Burned = X

If X is negative, your body must use its fat stores to make up the deficit. THIS IS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS!

So lets say you need 2500 calories per day to maintain your bodyweight and make X = 0. If you ingest 2500 calories and you burn 500 during your cardio, X = -500 so you will lose weight. Now lets consider what happens if you do this on an empty stomach versus a full stomach.

If you do your cardio on an empty stomach your body will burn 500 calories of fat from your body's reserves during the workout. Sounds good, right? Well it is. But for the rest of the day, you won't be burning much fat from your body because now you are feeding yourself the 2500 calories needed to maintain body weight. So in the end, X = -500.

Now consider what happens when you have breakfast first. Just as an example, what if you eat 500 calories of carbs prior to your cardio session? Well, during the cardio your body will burn the carbs you just ate, and not fat from your body. That sucks, right? You didn't lose any fat! Here's the part where you have to remember the big picture. For the rest of the day, you only get to eat 2000 calories because you already had 500 for breakfast. Since you need 2500 to maintain your weight, your body will have to burn 500 calories of fat during the day (and night) to make up the deficit. So in the end, X = -500.

So from this example, if you follow the reasoning, it won't matter if you eat first or not. The reason I said you'll lose more if you eat first is because you will be more likely to have a great cardio workout that way. Continuing the example above, you might burn more than 500 calories in your workout and therefore tilt the equation even more towards weight loss. From my own personal experience, if I eat first I can go longer and harder during my cardio, and burn more calories.

Btw, the same reasoning can be used to dismiss the "target heart rate for fat burning" myth. Yes it's true you'll burn more fat DURING the workout, but when you consider the entire day the only thing that matters is your net caloric intake.

This is all just my opinion of course. It's tough to argue with the law of conservation of energy, though.

[endgreed]

I agree with you. You seemed pretty informed. I got the idea of not eating first and then running in some other forum because a lot of people were raving about it.

At first when I read your post, I subtracted 500 from 2500 in your example and I got 2000, not -500 as you got. But I think I understand because you said your body needs 2500 to maintain its weight. I'm going to try to stay under 1500 calories a day for food. It's hard but possible. I probably burned 1000 calories today because I ran and lifted weights, plus from doing everyday things like walking, washing my car, etc. So, I should be at -2000 by the end of today (2500 - 500 (1500 - 1000) ) Or something like that.

[zaggahamma]

think this one might have to be chalked up to what works for the individual again....i wonder if cardio has been done by bb's for a long time and what was some of the greats take on when/how to do cardio...like what did arnold say about cardio and how about ronnie?

[Ectoflab]

I agree with you. You seemed pretty informed. I got the idea of not eating first and then running in some other forum because a lot of people were raving about it.

At first when I read your post, I subtracted 500 from 2500 in your example and I got 2000, not -500 as you got. But I think I understand because you said your body needs 2500 to maintain its weight. I'm going to try to stay under 1500 calories a day for food. It's hard but possible. I probably burned 1000 calories today because I ran and lifted weights, plus from doing everyday things like walking, washing my car, etc. So, I should be at -2000 by the end of today (2500 - 500 (1500 - 1000) ) Or something like that.

Well you have to realize that the 2500 calorie figure was just an example. YOU may need more or less depending on your size, body composition, age etc. There are ways to estimate this. One is the following equation which I got from a site and used myself.

BMR = 66 + ( 6.23 x weight in pounds ) + ( 12.7 x height in inches ) - ( 6.8 x age in years )

BMR is basal metabolic rate, your caloric requirement to stay alive not including additional calories needed for activity. Use this as a starting point. It's tough to estimate how many calories you burn lifting and doing cardio and taking out the garbage etc, so figuring out how much to eat will take some trial and error, but definately keep track of your calorie intake versus your hunger level. You don't want to live feeling like you're starving.

Also, if you maintain a caloric deficit of 500 calories per day, you will lose about a pound of fat per week. You should NOT go for the 2000 calorie deficit in my opinion, that's way too much, especially if you are weight training. Your body will "get scared" and go into conservation mode, then when the dieting ends your body will hoard calories, storing as much as possible as fat in preparation for "the next famine." This is how yo-yo dieting happens. It's something I used to do until I finally read up on this stuff and realized you have to do some math and think long-term to lose weight intelligently.

Also, if you don't get enough calories you may overtrain and your immune system will weaken, leading to colds/flus etc which totally ruin your program.

All this is just my opinion of course, and I don't want to present myself as a real expert on anything.

[endgreed]

You make a good point. I am 6'4'' tall and weigh 220 right now. I just want to get rid of this little blubber on my belly so I have a 6 pack. But it's not going anywhere yet. I just get impatient and want things quick. Maybe I should eat a little more right now. We'll see.

[C_Bino]

In my opinion, based on the reading I've done (and common sense), you will lose more weight if you eat first. To understand why, you have to consider the whole 24-hour day, not just the time period you do your cardio in. I'll try to explain:

In a 24 hour period, you will gain or lose weight according to this equation:

Calories Ingested - Calories Burned = X

If X is negative, your body must use its fat stores to make up the deficit. THIS IS ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS!

So lets say you need 2500 calories per day to maintain your bodyweight and make X = 0. If you ingest 2500 calories and you burn 500 during your cardio, X = -500 so you will lose weight. Now lets consider what happens if you do this on an empty stomach versus a full stomach.

If you do your cardio on an empty stomach your body will burn 500 calories of fat from your body's reserves during the workout. Sounds good, right? Well it is. But for the rest of the day, you won't be burning much fat from your body because now you are feeding yourself the 2500 calories needed to maintain body weight. So in the end, X = -500.

Now consider what happens when you have breakfast first. Just as an example, what if you eat 500 calories of carbs prior to your cardio session? Well, during the cardio your body will burn the carbs you just ate, and not fat from your body. That sucks, right? You didn't lose any fat! Here's the part where you have to remember the big picture. For the rest of the day, you only get to eat 2000 calories because you already had 500 for breakfast. Since you need 2500 to maintain your weight, your body will have to burn 500 calories of fat during the day (and night) to make up the deficit. So in the end, X = -500.

So from this example, if you follow the reasoning, it won't matter if you eat first or not. The reason I said you'll lose more if you eat first is because you will be more likely to have a great cardio workout that way. Continuing the example above, you might burn more than 500 calories in your workout and therefore tilt the equation even more towards weight loss. From my own personal experience, if I eat first I can go longer and harder during my cardio, and burn more calories.

Btw, the same reasoning can be used to dismiss the "target heart rate for fat burning" myth. Yes it's true you'll burn more fat DURING the workout, but when you consider the entire day the only thing that matters is your net caloric intake.

This is all just my opinion of course. It's tough to argue with the law of conservation of energy, though.

Im sorry, it does appear you have done some reading and what not and do know some things. But you are definitely wrong on burning more fat if you eat first. I have dont it personally and it doesnt work that way. You have to consider glycogen stores first and foremost.

Also you say it dismisses the fat burning heart rate myth. Not quite, do you know about ATP, fast and slow glycolysis and fatty acid oxidation? I GUARNATEE you if you take two people, one runs and one walks and they burn the same amount of calories each time over a few month time frame the one running will lose more muscle. I am willing to put my life savings in to that statement.

[IBdmfkr]

I've retained almost all of my muscle and I do cardio AM without any aminos or BCAA's period.. follow AM cardio 15mins post cardio with BCAA's and 15mins later with first meal.. It's harder to burn muscle then you might think.. some ppl are a bit paranoid.

[endgreed]

You make a good point. Maybe it doesn't burn as much fat as people tend to worry about, but the other guy made a good point that burning more calories overall is a win-win situation. In order to do that I have to eat something first (hour before) because I won't run effectively without some fuel. Plus, it just ****ing sucks when you're running on an empty stomach early in the morning. At least this is my experience.

[Duke of Earl]

Theories & hypotheses are all well and good, but from my experience ( and the majority of people here ) AM cardio ( on an empty stomach ) is the most efficient way to loose fat.

[dreuxscott1]

if you keep your heart rate down you wont burn muscle...the demand on your body wont be great so energy will not be needed from muscle while doing cardio...i always do 50 minutes of low intensity cardio on the eliptical machine and it works great...