Do people think of their heart when they ingest clanbuterol?

[PuertoRico1978]

I am a medical resident doing my training in Internal Medicine and I've just been reading this forum for the past 2 days. I am amazed at how many people, even women, take dangerous medications for the sake of looking good without considering the consequences. For example clenbuterol can cause fatal arrhythmias and heart attacks, and I noticed that some people said that they developed chest pain after ingesting clenbuterol. This is called angina pectoris and its due to the heart muscles working too hard and not getting enough oxygen (called myocardial ischemia). This can result in myocardial infarction and has been documented in many countries (like Mexico) where there's illegal supplementation of beef with clenbuterol and simillar B-adrenergics.

Not to mention that anabolic steroids themselves can also cause elevations of LDL / VLDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and this further puts a load on the heart making anabolic steroid users good candidates for heart bypass surgeries at very young ages. I guess steroid users keep the cardiologists happy though.

I also noticed people mentioning other side effects of steroids like: pissing blood! This is not a good sign: it's called drug induced interstital nephritis and can cause irreversible changes in the kidney that will only appear 10-15years later and cause irreversible kidney failure. Again these people might be candidates for kidney dialysis, you know being hooked up to a machine 24 hours a day for the rest of your life!!!!!

I forgot to add that anabolic steroids also cause changes in the liver like liver adenomas and peliosis hepatitis which can rupture and cause fatal bleeding!!!
Also chronic steroid cocktail intake will cause elevations of the liver enzymes AST/ALT and in the long term can cause liver damage. Oh sorry I forgot, the liver cleanse and total body cleanse are going to protect you!

Oh and did I mention that steroids also produce cardi*****ly with reduced ejection fractions (like i"ve been reading on this board) which is irreversible!!!! Yeah I know cardi*****ly doesn't sound too bad, it just means growth of the heart. How bad can a bigger heart be, right? But this will cause congestive heart failure which is irreversible and fatal.

Well, take care everyone and I hope you guys enjoy your big muscles (and balls the size of marbles) while you can.....

[Hellmaskbanned]

I will never take clen.

Cholesterol is bad long term. Easy to monitor with bloodwork, and also there are ways to control.

Liver values also bad long term. Off cycle Most likely will return to normal prior to use. Easy to monitor & control aswell.

Nice post, shows how if you abuse , and don't take the proper steps in precautions can lead to some serious health issues.

But I could study a few medical studies and post the same about how a certain docter prescribed medication can negatively effect the body aswell.
Also could come up with life threatening sides of tanning beds, smoking, drinking, etc.

[RYNO]

I am a medical resident doing my training in Internal Medicine and I've just been reading this forum for the past 2 days. I am amazed at how many people, even women, take dangerous medications for the sake of looking good without considering the consequences. For example clenbuterol can cause fatal arrhythmias and heart attacks, and I noticed that some people said that they developed chest pain after ingesting clenbuterol. This is called angina pectoris and its due to the heart muscles working too hard and not getting enough oxygen (called myocardial ischemia). This can result in myocardial infarction and has been documented in many countries (like Mexico) where there's illegal supplementation of beef with clenbuterol and simillar B-adrenergics.

Not to mention that anabolic steroids themselves can also cause elevations of LDL / VLDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and this further puts a load on the heart making anabolic steroid users good candidates for heart bypass surgeries at very young ages. I guess steroid users keep the cardiologists happy though.

I also noticed people mentioning other side effects of steroids like: pissing blood! This is not a good sign: it's called drug induced interstital nephritis and can cause irreversible changes in the kidney that will only appear 10-15years later and cause irreversible kidney failure. Again these people might be candidates for kidney dialysis, you know being hooked up to a machine 24 hours a day for the rest of your life!!!!!

I forgot to add that anabolic steroids also cause changes in the liver like liver adenomas and peliosis hepatitis which can rupture and cause fatal bleeding!!!
Also chronic steroid cocktail intake will cause elevations of the liver enzymes AST/ALT and in the long term can cause liver damage. Oh sorry I forgot, the liver cleanse and total body cleanse are going to protect you!

Oh and did I mention that steroids also produce cardi*****ly with reduced ejection fractions (like i"ve been reading on this board) which is irreversible!!!! Yeah I know cardi*****ly doesn't sound too bad, it just means growth of the heart. How bad can a bigger heart be, right? But this will cause congestive heart failure which is irreversible and fatal.

Well, take care everyone and I hope you guys enjoy your big muscles (and balls the size of marbles) while you can.....

How about some statistics on the occurence of such ailments in the moderate short-term responsible steroid user. Yeah, I could also get hit by a jumbo jet on the way to the gym.

[perfectbeast2001]

how about I find all the worse case scenarios for drugs like aspirin or paracetamol, stomach ulcers that may burst and flood your body with poison, allergic reactions that will kill you, liver failure, kidney failure blah blah blah...
While your sitting in a bar drinking after your stressfull day at work i am taking some AS and working out so lighten up dude, we all have vices and they all have an element of risk. If you are sensible you can minimize that risk which is one of the main points of posting on a site like this, to help others minimize risk.
Some of your post was valid and some was based on the kind of pathetic scare stories which they tell medical students. Post some info backed by scientific data or even better post some info about how to minimize risk.

[PRAMANIS]

First off its Clenbuterol not Clanbuterol but I guess your not a resident pharmasict so I'll go easy on your mistake! I think you should wait until your Dr. PuertoRico1978 and do some studies for yourself before you make bold statements like that. Most people on this forum accually tell all the less experienced people that AAS are not the way to go and only disciplined healthy cautious people should take the plunge with their non-biased doctors supervision through frequent blood tests. I hope you go over to alcohol.com, tobacco.com, and obese.com and rant also. We know what the risks are and its non of you buisness to be quite frank!

on resident know it alls!!!

[crash187ct]

how about I find all the worse case scenarios for drugs like aspirin or paracetamol, stomach ulcers that may burst and flood your body with poison, allergic reactions that will kill you, liver failure, kidney failure blah blah blah...
While your sitting in a bar drinking after your stressfull day at work i am taking some AS and working out so lighten up dude, we all have vices and they all have an element of risk. If you are sensible you can minimize that risk which is one of the main points of posting on a site like this, to help others minimize risk.
Some of your post was valid and some was based on the kind of pathetic scare stories which they tell medical students. Post some info backed by scientific data or even better post some info about how to minimize risk.

As much as i don't like beast, he does have a point. Everything i wanted to say...he already said. So "his post x2". Also, young users perfect candidates of heart bypass? I'm not disagreeing with the possibility of this, out of the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of users which take aas, I wouldn't be surprised to see that an extremely small number of young users have serious heart issues (taken correctly).

[AnabolicBoy1981]

I am a medical resident doing my training in Internal Medicine and I've just been reading this forum for the past 2 days. I am amazed at how many people, even women, take dangerous medications for the sake of looking good without considering the consequences. For example clenbuterol can cause fatal arrhythmias and heart attacks, and I noticed that some people said that they developed chest pain after ingesting clenbuterol. This is called angina pectoris and its due to the heart muscles working too hard and not getting enough oxygen (called myocardial ischemia). This can result in myocardial infarction and has been documented in many countries (like Mexico) where there's illegal supplementation of beef with clenbuterol and simillar B-adrenergics.

Not to mention that anabolic steroids themselves can also cause elevations of LDL / VLDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and this further puts a load on the heart making anabolic steroid users good candidates for heart bypass surgeries at very young ages. I guess steroid users keep the cardiologists happy though.

I also noticed people mentioning other side effects of steroids like: pissing blood! This is not a good sign: it's called drug induced interstital nephritis and can cause irreversible changes in the kidney that will only appear 10-15years later and cause irreversible kidney failure. Again these people might be candidates for kidney dialysis, you know being hooked up to a machine 24 hours a day for the rest of your life!!!!!

I forgot to add that anabolic steroids also cause changes in the liver like liver adenomas and peliosis hepatitis which can rupture and cause fatal bleeding!!!
Also chronic steroid cocktail intake will cause elevations of the liver enzymes AST/ALT and in the long term can cause liver damage. Oh sorry I forgot, the liver cleanse and total body cleanse are going to protect you!

Oh and did I mention that steroids also produce cardi*****ly with reduced ejection fractions (like i"ve been reading on this board) which is irreversible!!!! Yeah I know cardi*****ly doesn't sound too bad, it just means growth of the heart. How bad can a bigger heart be, right? But this will cause congestive heart failure which is irreversible and fatal.

Well, take care everyone and I hope you guys enjoy your big muscles (and balls the size of marbles) while you can.....

i suggest you stick around and keep reading. everything you listed is total worst case scenerio. for example if i ran the most toxic compounds in the worst possible way, yeah, all that stuff would happen to me, sure. But there are over 50 different anabolic steroids that i can think of off hand. Not all steroids are liver toxic, especially injectables. One would have to take an insane amount of injectables to reach any appreciable liver toxicity. most liver issues we hear about with steroids are from the oral form. And still here, we have some cushon. There is even one popular oral that actual has healed the liver. If an oral is taken within certain parameters, the liver will be fine. Even if the liver were stressed INITIALLY, liver enymes most likely will resume to normal EVEN IF the stressor is not removed, and most certainly if it is. I have seen studies where small animals(rodents) were given doses of testosterone large enough for a HUMAN. The liver enzymes elevated tremendously at first yes, but then after a couple weeks they returned to normal. Now again that was with an injectable form.

enlarged hearts are not only in the steroid user, but just about EVERY ATHLETE and weigtlifter around! I suggest you read up on that one.

Cholesteral, yeah that can be an issue, but again this is more pronounced with orals than injects, but is also dependent on the compound. a smart user will get his bloodwork done and see how he responds to certain steroids, not just blindly take things. but even still, we are talking about short periods of time here when we might have a less than perfect lipid profile. Its not like the majority of us use these drugs all year round.


clenbuterol, well, its falling out of favor with some of us as of late, but not even for the reasons you mentioned. Yes, my heart beats faster on clen, well, its a stimulant. As a stimulant we always recomend starting out small, and building. Some ppl cant tolerate clen or other such drugs. If anyone has ever died from clen its most likely due to the fact that they had buildup of plaque in their arteries, and the added vasoconstriction of clen made it close up completely.
Yes clen does vasoconstric some places and is not recomended to the older athlete as are other stimulants.

as far as clen, eh, its not the greatest stuff perhaps. i have used it several times. probably wont agian. but i'm alive, and so are the many others that have used it on here.
We are not ignorant to health issues around here.

[Unoid]

This just sounds like a rant of some newbie big ego doctor.

let me guess you're 5-8 150lbs and jog 5 miles 3x a week.

You're average, some of us like to succeed physically compared to others.

I've only seen 1 Real doctor who was a bodybuilder also. A great plastic surgeon, maybe you should read studies like he must have before you rant.

[PuertoRico1978]

Anabolicboy wrote: ">everything you listed is total worst case scenerio. for example if i ran the >most toxic compounds in the worst possible way, yeah, all that stuff would >happen to me, sure. "

You've got a point there. Everything I said was worst case scenerio. But if you add up the chances of all these worst case scenarios occuring than something bad happening from using steroids doesn't seem so far fetched especially after long term use.

But the thing is I didn't even mention all the other "minor" side effects of steroid use like benign prostatic hyperplasia, urinary retention, gynecomastia, hair loss, and infertility and not to mention prostatic carcinoma.

Anabolicboy wrote:
"Even if the liver were stressed INITIALLY, liver enymes most likely will resume to normal EVEN IF the stressor is not removed, and most certainly if it is. I have seen studies where small animals(rodents) were given doses of testosterone large enough for a HUMAN. The liver enzymes elevated tremendously at first yes, but then after a couple weeks they returned to normal. Now again that was with an injectable form."

Any form of steroid use will cause elevations of the liver enzymes simply because all steroids (injectable or not) are detoxified by the liver (by an enzyme in the liver called CYP 3A4) and because these steroids are taken in very high quantities this enyme is overwhelmed. Although it's true that elevations of liver enzymes in the short term are reversible, they can elevate the risk of liver carcinoma, especially if there's repeated use of steroids over a long period of time. Also they elevate the risk of cirrhosis of the liver with repeated use and this is another irreversible effect (although another worst case scenario). Also you have to realize that there are many reactions to drugs in the liver, some fatal, and the more drugs you take , and the higher the dosage, the higher the risk of something bad occuring. Just one example is tamoxifen which if I rember correctly causes fatty liver (like in alcoholics) in a substantial number of people taking it.

Somebody also mentioned that all atheletes get cardi*****ly, but in reality in atheletes it's called hypertrophy which is normal. Cardi*****ly is not normal and means that the heart muscles are so big that they don't let enough blood into the chambers of the heart and the heart can't pump enough blood. Cardi*****ly leads to congestive heart failure (with reduced ejection fraction like some people on this board mentioned).

Some of these worst case scenarios are rare while others are not. Steroids are illegal for a reason. So sorry to sound like a know-it-all but steroids do have serious and not so rare health consequences.

[Tazwell]

I noticed that some people said that they developed chest pain after ingesting clenbuterol. This is called angina pectoris and its due to the heart muscles working too hard and not getting enough oxygen (called myocardial ischemia). This can result in myocardial infarction and has been documented in many countries (like Mexico) where there's illegal supplementation of beef with clenbuterol and simillar B-adrenergics.

I'll remember that next time I'm in mexico and eating some fajitas.. Yup, you saved my life.

[PuertoRico1978]

This just sounds like a rant of some newbie big ego doctor.

let me guess you're 5-8 150lbs and jog 5 miles 3x a week.

You're average, some of us like to succeed physically compared to others.

I've only seen 1 Real doctor who was a bodybuilder also. A great plastic surgeon, maybe you should read studies like he must have before you rant.

Actually I am 5-11, 180, I don't jog, I play basketball and I'm fairly athletic. I would never take steroids I am not vain enough to spend 5 hours everyday checking out the size of my pecs in the mirror. Also I don't like having girls making jokes about the size of my testicles behind my back.

[RYNO]

Anabolicboy wrote: ">everything you listed is total worst case scenerio. for example if i ran the >most toxic compounds in the worst possible way, yeah, all that stuff would >happen to me, sure. "

You've got a point there. Everything I said was worst case scenerio. But if you add up the chances of all these worst case scenarios occuring than something bad happening from using steroids doesn't seem so far fetched especially after long term use.

But the thing is I didn't even mention all the other "minor" side effects of steroid use like benign prostatic hyperplasia, urinary retention, gynecomastia, hair loss, and infertility and not to mention prostatic carcinoma.

Anabolicboy wrote:
"Even if the liver were stressed INITIALLY, liver enymes most likely will resume to normal EVEN IF the stressor is not removed, and most certainly if it is. I have seen studies where small animals(rodents) were given doses of testosterone large enough for a HUMAN. The liver enzymes elevated tremendously at first yes, but then after a couple weeks they returned to normal. Now again that was with an injectable form."

Any form of steroid use will cause elevations of the liver enzymes simply because all steroids (injectable or not) are detoxified by the liver (by an enzyme in the liver called CYP 3A4) and because these steroids are taken in very high quantities this enyme is overwhelmed. Although it's true that elevations of liver enzymes in the short term are reversible, they can elevate the risk of liver carcinoma, especially if there's repeated use of steroids over a long period of time. Also they elevate the risk of cirrhosis of the liver with repeated use and this is another irreversible effect (although another worst case scenario). Also you have to realize that there are many reactions to drugs in the liver, some fatal, and the more drugs you take , and the higher the dosage, the higher the risk of something bad occuring. Just one example is tamoxifen which if I rember correctly causes fatty liver (like in alcoholics) in a substantial number of people taking it.

Somebody also mentioned that all atheletes get cardi*****ly, but in reality in atheletes it's called hypertrophy which is normal. Cardi*****ly is not normal and means that the heart muscles are so big that they don't let enough blood into the chambers of the heart and the heart can't pump enough blood. Cardi*****ly leads to congestive heart failure (with reduced ejection fraction like some people on this board mentioned).

Some of these worst case scenarios are rare while others are not. Steroids are illegal for a reason. So sorry to sound like a know-it-all but steroids do have serious and not so rare health consequences.

Steroids are illegal for a reason? So if the government knows best about what is dangerous and what is not, why aren't alcohol and tobacco illegal? Bad argument man.

[doctadank]

i agree with this dude, if you think clen is just as dangerous as aspirin(like perfect beast was saying) then you are a FOOL!

if youve run it and you still think this then you are a joker. ive tkaen this stuff numerous times and im saying anything that makes you shake like this is NOT HEALTHY. i think you have a better chance of dying from clenbuterl than extascy.
shit is potent and shit is unhealthy.

i say the 3 scariest bbing drugs are - clen,slin,dnp

he does sound biased again steroids which i totally dont agree with for the most part, but his few lines on clenbuterol i would have to agree with.

[Maldorf]

Actually I am 5-11, 180, I don't jog, I play basketball and I'm fairly athletic. I would never take steroids I am not vain enough to spend 5 hours everyday checking out the size of my pecs in the mirror. Also I don't like having girls making jokes about the size of my testicles behind my back.

So why in the hell did you come here to post? Did you come to show us how superior you are to all of us? Sounds like you have a problem with your self confidence to me. I think we can all do just fine without your comming here to save us from the evil of steroids.

[ascendant]

Steroids are illegal for a reason? So if the government knows best about what is dangerous and what is not, why aren't alcohol and tobacco illegal? Bad argument man.

EXACTLY. however, i guarantee he won't respond to this question.

also, as someone else already stated and i ask you mr. puerto rico, what about the meds you and your doctor buddies prescribe people? it's a known fact that all meds out there have some form of adverse negative effect and potentially cause other problems increasing a persons need for additional meds. you read what a medication treats and it's a one-liner. you read the "precautions" and it's an accompanying novel.

there are plenty of medications that even go onto the market every year and are taken off soon after because of such severe adverse reactions within the general public (which is the medical industries "guinea pigs" for new meds) including up to death. yes, you and your doctor buddies prescribe meds that kill people and this is a fact. oh, and one last thing i'd like to point out, steroids are medications also!!!

[shrpskn]

Actually I am 5-11, 180, I don't jog, I play basketball and I'm fairly athletic. I would never take steroids I am not vain enough to spend 5 hours everyday checking out the size of my pecs in the mirror. Also I don't like having girls making jokes about the size of my testicles behind my back.

Of course clen is dangerous if not taken with proper precautions and so does any other product out there in the world, but what the hell does your above, quoted post have anything to do with clen?

What does an individual with this complex of staring at themselves in a mirror for 5 hours a day have anything to do with steroids.
If you would never take steroids, then what are doing at a site like this with members dedicated to one another in advising the appropriate, health-minded use of AAS. Many of us are very aware of the potential sides and take the appropriate precautionary measures to avoid such sides and risks.
And girls making jokes about your testicles?...sounds like a personal issue. I personally, have never encountered testicular atrophy with the use of AAS, here again, it goes to show that with the proper knowledge and precautions took, one can avoid such a side effect. But you wouldn't know this, because it appears that all you know is what's been brain washed into your mind as you've pursued your medical career.
Also, if you say you will never take steroids, your woman is really going to love it when your natty test levels plummet after 40 y/o and you can't get a hard on or have any sort of a sex drive...have a good one, as there are clear reasons out there for doctor prescribed HRT.

With that all said, why don't you take your doctorate B.S. elsewhere, instead of trying to prove some shit that we've all heard before...or tell us something we haven't heard.

-ShrpSkn

[AnabolicBoy1981]

Anabolicboy wrote: ">everything you listed is total worst case scenerio. for example if i ran the >most toxic compounds in the worst possible way, yeah, all that stuff would >happen to me, sure. "

You've got a point there. Everything I said was worst case scenerio. But if you add up the chances of all these worst case scenarios occuring than something bad happening from using steroids doesn't seem so far fetched especially after long term use.

But the thing is I didn't even mention all the other "minor" side effects of steroid use like benign prostatic hyperplasia, urinary retention, gynecomastia, hair loss, and infertility and not to mention prostatic carcinoma.

Anabolicboy wrote:
"Even if the liver were stressed INITIALLY, liver enymes most likely will resume to normal EVEN IF the stressor is not removed, and most certainly if it is. I have seen studies where small animals(rodents) were given doses of testosterone large enough for a HUMAN. The liver enzymes elevated tremendously at first yes, but then after a couple weeks they returned to normal. Now again that was with an injectable form."

Any form of steroid use will cause elevations of the liver enzymes simply because all steroids (injectable or not) are detoxified by the liver (by an enzyme in the liver called CYP 3A4) and because these steroids are taken in very high quantities this enyme is overwhelmed. Although it's true that elevations of liver enzymes in the short term are reversible, they can elevate the risk of liver carcinoma, especially if there's repeated use of steroids over a long period of time. Also they elevate the risk of cirrhosis of the liver with repeated use and this is another irreversible effect (although another worst case scenario). Also you have to realize that there are many reactions to drugs in the liver, some fatal, and the more drugs you take , and the higher the dosage, the higher the risk of something bad occuring. Just one example is tamoxifen which if I rember correctly causes fatty liver (like in alcoholics) in a substantial number of people taking it.

Somebody also mentioned that all atheletes get cardi*****ly, but in reality in atheletes it's called hypertrophy which is normal. Cardi*****ly is not normal and means that the heart muscles are so big that they don't let enough blood into the chambers of the heart and the heart can't pump enough blood. Cardi*****ly leads to congestive heart failure (with reduced ejection fraction like some people on this board mentioned).

Some of these worst case scenarios are rare while others are not. Steroids are illegal for a reason. So sorry to sound like a know-it-all but steroids do have serious and not so rare health consequences.

That is all very interesting. And some of it may be true. But it just doesnt add up to much in the real world. In many different gyms the last 9 years of my life, met alota juice heads, used a little myself, been involved in competetive sports etc. I have met many different guys from early 20's-early 50's who are all hardcore. The way most of them go about the administration of these drugs, they have never had a lifethreating problem. Hairloss, bitchtits, yeah, occasionally. But no-body has ever died from being bald, at least that i know of. The life threatning side effects are way blown outa proportion. Gynocomastia, is something that can be avoived for the most part, but isnt deadly if it isnt. Though, with easy accesabi;ity of ancillaries, there is no reason to get it. Baldness, there are things you ca do, but you have to tread carefully to avoid it, nix alota compounds, keep cycles simple and use 5-ar inhibitors.
The debates about this have gone on and on. Its been shown that there are maybe a measly dozen studies that MIGHT link certain ppls deaths to steroids but, NONE of them can definetivly say it was the steroids.
You seem very passionate about the subject, I dont know why. But just the fact that you came one here and looked though was intriguing. I wonder if you had a bad experience with a user perhaps?
Maybe you heard a local horror story. Each town has one from time to time. Most is do to ignorance. The last one i heard in the one gym i go to(i go to 3) was about a 17 y/o old who took a toxic oral for 18 weeks, and was puking up "green stuff", probably bile. Well, thats lack of research plain and simple. If he spent ONE DAY here he first would have been told to wait at least 5 years before touching the stuff, and certainly NOT to run that particualr compound for 18 weeks, which is about 3 times the length for that steroid.

As one member said, all drugs have side effects.
My dad is on about 5 different meds at 60 years old. You should see the side effects on some of these drugs. I wonder, why is he not dead from the meds yet?!!! Some of the sides are so bad on a couple that it makes any steroid look like a flintstone vitamin, seriously. Still though, he is not dead. Why? Becuase it is being monitored by a doctor, there is a method behind it. Dosages are monitored. And keep in mind he is on these damn things ALL YEAR LONG. An average steroid user wont spend half the year on his drugs. And hey, some guys arent even lookin to do more than a few cycles anyway.
The bottom line is there is alota anecdotal evidence on both sides. Right now you sound like a one sided alarmest. Sayin that steroids are "deadly", just doest hold any water.

[Ufa]

edit

[ascendant]

I am a medical resident doing my training in Internal Medicine and I've just been reading this forum for the past 2 days. I am amazed at how many people, even women, take dangerous medications for the sake of looking good without considering the consequences. For example clenbuterol can cause fatal arrhythmias and heart attacks, and I noticed that some people said that they developed chest pain after ingesting clenbuterol. This is called angina pectoris and its due to the heart muscles working too hard and not getting enough oxygen (called myocardial ischemia). This can result in myocardial infarction and has been documented in many countries (like Mexico) where there's illegal supplementation of beef with clenbuterol and simillar B-adrenergics.

Not to mention that anabolic steroids themselves can also cause elevations of LDL / VLDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and this further puts a load on the heart making anabolic steroid users good candidates for heart bypass surgeries at very young ages. I guess steroid users keep the cardiologists happy though.

I also noticed people mentioning other side effects of steroids like: pissing blood! This is not a good sign: it's called drug induced interstital nephritis and can cause irreversible changes in the kidney that will only appear 10-15years later and cause irreversible kidney failure. Again these people might be candidates for kidney dialysis, you know being hooked up to a machine 24 hours a day for the rest of your life!!!!!

I forgot to add that anabolic steroids also cause changes in the liver like liver adenomas and peliosis hepatitis which can rupture and cause fatal bleeding!!!
Also chronic steroid cocktail intake will cause elevations of the liver enzymes AST/ALT and in the long term can cause liver damage. Oh sorry I forgot, the liver cleanse and total body cleanse are going to protect you!

Oh and did I mention that steroids also produce cardi*****ly with reduced ejection fractions (like i"ve been reading on this board) which is irreversible!!!! Yeah I know cardi*****ly doesn't sound too bad, it just means growth of the heart. How bad can a bigger heart be, right? But this will cause congestive heart failure which is irreversible and fatal.

Well, take care everyone and I hope you guys enjoy your big muscles (and balls the size of marbles) while you can.....

i just had to add a bit more here. for starters, where are your issues man? i mean, why come to this board just to criticize? are you actually expecting to "enlighten" us with your "words of wisdom" that you were taught by a pencil-neck geek warning you of the dangers of steroids in a seminar? a seminar is one thing, observing it in real life is another.

remember, steroid users do work out and all other things considered other than the steroids, they tend to keep themselves in damn good health as far as having an active lifestyle, eating right, proper rest, etc.

now, the majority of the public is overweight, and obesity is far more dangerous than any steroid ever could be. now, why don't you go out on the streets and lecture those people cause not only do they have dangerously high cholesterol levels, but their sedentary lifestyles cause issues and whatever drinking, smoking, or other habits they have. you compare a modest bodybuilder who responsibly takes steroids and monitors his bloodwork regularly to the average joe and lets see who lives a longer, happier, healthier life. fact is, you're missing the big picture guy.

as far as your "dangers of clen" thread, again, get a clue. sure, clen can cause some serious side-effects, but so can getting in your car and going for a drive. however, do you worry every time you drive that you may get in a fatal car accident? when taking clen responsibly, that's basically a practical basis of comparison. as far as the animals, they have different receptors in comparison to humans. they may have forgotten to teach you that, or at least not yet. yea, we know our sh*t here too son, and we may even teach you something. anyway, the animals do respond to clen with an extra receptor that humans don't have, making it more responsive in them but at the same time making them more susceptible to side-effects.

another thing about clen you're not taking into consideration is the health risks of not taking it. now, clen is of course taken to lose excess bf. now yes, while the persons taking it, they're taking very limited heart risks when taken responsibly, but only while they're on it. however, do you think it's healthier for those people to not take clen and keep the excess fat? consider the negative health effects of being overweight and the fact that some people just can't lose that fat without a little help from a fat-burner. as far as safer alternatives, i don't think so. any kind of stimulants put more stress on the heart and cns, only clen is more effective with fat loss while doing so.

most of the rest of your post i can't even address as they are ridiculous extremes of people who abuse this stuff. as far as the wise-ass "enjoy our balls shrinking" comment, who the hell cares? our nuts shrink a bit, but we have more sex, enjoy sex more, and since we have more sex cause of the increased sex drive while on a cycle, it stretches the penis itself and actually enlarges it. so lets see, smaller balls and bigger penis may sound bad to you, but considering the positives, i'm more than willing to take the slight bad with the good. mine never shrink much anyway so it's not even an issue with me but regardless, you're being ridiculous.

oh, and another question for you... if steroids are so bad for you, why are so many adults being put on HRT? though there can potentially be negative effects to taking these substances, there can also be negative effects to NOT having these substances. it's all about moderation and monitoring ones bloodwork to make sure all is in check.

by the way, the air you're breathing can potentially give you lung cancer. the space you're existing in can potentially give you cancer because of all the kinds of electromagnetic waves in the air from radio, cell phones, etc that interfere with our bodies. so, better not exist cause it can kill you.

the one thing we're guaranteed in life is death. now i don't know about you, but i'd rather live a life where i'm bigger, stronger, hornier, and happier, even if it is a few years shorter than the one i could live if i lived in seclusion. at least i can say i lived a good life. try and say the same when you run from everything that can potentially be bad for you.

[shrpskn]

Hell, anything will harm your health or kill you these days...I think the thread starter here, has just recently been enlightened to the fact that AAS's are on the list of hundreds of thousands of things out there that can bring about potentially adverse health effects. Without taking into account that many have effectively and properly juiced for years without any ill effects. IMO, it's the uninformed, misguided, ignorant idiots out there that fvck themselves up by using AAS's improperly that bring negative attention to the AAS community.

-ShrpSkn

[crash187ct]

i think a lot of people focus on the minor (compared to some prescription drugs) side effects. they tend to overlook the actual good things they can do.

[rhed]

I am a medical resident doing my training in Internal Medicine and I've just been reading this forum for the past 2 days. I am amazed at how many people, even women, take dangerous medications for the sake of looking good without considering the consequences. For example clenbuterol can cause fatal arrhythmias and heart attacks, and I noticed that some people said that they developed chest pain after ingesting clenbuterol. This is called angina pectoris and its due to the heart muscles working too hard and not getting enough oxygen (called myocardial ischemia). This can result in myocardial infarction and has been documented in many countries (like Mexico) where there's illegal supplementation of beef with clenbuterol and simillar B-adrenergics.

Not to mention that anabolic steroids themselves can also cause elevations of LDL / VLDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) and this further puts a load on the heart making anabolic steroid users good candidates for heart bypass surgeries at very young ages. I guess steroid users keep the cardiologists happy though.

I also noticed people mentioning other side effects of steroids like: pissing blood! This is not a good sign: it's called drug induced interstital nephritis and can cause irreversible changes in the kidney that will only appear 10-15years later and cause irreversible kidney failure. Again these people might be candidates for kidney dialysis, you know being hooked up to a machine 24 hours a day for the rest of your life!!!!!

I forgot to add that anabolic steroids also cause changes in the liver like liver adenomas and peliosis hepatitis which can rupture and cause fatal bleeding!!!
Also chronic steroid cocktail intake will cause elevations of the liver enzymes AST/ALT and in the long term can cause liver damage. Oh sorry I forgot, the liver cleanse and total body cleanse are going to protect you!

Oh and did I mention that steroids also produce cardi*****ly with reduced ejection fractions (like i"ve been reading on this board) which is irreversible!!!! Yeah I know cardi*****ly doesn't sound too bad, it just means growth of the heart. How bad can a bigger heart be, right? But this will cause congestive heart failure which is irreversible and fatal.

Well, take care everyone and I hope you guys enjoy your big muscles (and balls the size of marbles) while you can.....

Like we didn't know about this possible side effects. It's just you think we just woke up one day and said "today I'm going to take steroids for a couple of weeks, get big, and it's all good". Without knowing the risk.

[Maximus_Pecs]

So what about all the guys taking HRT for many many years.... I'm not exacltyseeing them dropping left and right from liver and heart issues. I know a few in their 60s that are in great shape and have been taking 200-300mg of test per week for 5 to 10 years.... How do explain this? Keep in mind this is all doctor prescribed. Why is it ok only if a doctor prescribed it. I'm not in any way demeaning the knowledge of a doctor but its the exact same substance...

Now your going to say it depends on the levels. You think that even a BB that took large amount of various substances for a few months out of the year would really not be any worse off in the longterm vs someone that took 200-300mg of test per week for 10 or more years. I'm not talking about the idiots that take excessive amout without research but the peope that take the time to research and DO consult a doctor, for blood work or advice. And as far as cholesterol levels I'd be more concerned about people that eat fast food everyday.

[*Narkissos*]

Bah.. steroids are for losers.

Imma go smoke me a pack or two of filterless cigs... down a couple 40-ounces beers...hit me a handful of aminocetaphen to counteract the hangover pre-emptively...

Then i'll go bitch somemore at how big a loser y'all weight-lifters are. You know.. you guys that're eating 6 healthy meals per day; jogging 5 times per week; weight-training 5-6 times per week.

You vain bastards!

*coughs up a lung*

[*Narkissos*]

Bah.. steroids are for losers.

Imma go smoke me a pack or two of filterless cigs... down a couple 40-ounces beers...hit me a handful of aminocetaphen to counteract the hangover pre-emptively...

Then i'll go bitch somemore at how big a loser y'all weight-lifters are. You know.. you guys that're eating 6 healthy meals per day; jogging 5 times per week; weight-training 5-6 times per week.

You vain bastards!

*coughs up a lung*

[Maximus_Pecs]

^^^^ exactly my point... I doubt the average person has any idea of his/her liver values, BP, Lipid profile... Most on here do...

That giant 40 really cleans liver out you know.

[stayinstacked]

I dont need scientific, arm-chair theorizer proof to know wether or not steroids are that bad, first off how many people on steroids are actually dropping off the planet? Once in awhile we hear of a pro bodybuilder dropping out of the scene, but how often is this? The top IFBB pros keep coming back year after year, bigger and badder, and these guys are taking doses that are probably 5-10x what the average user takes. Sure, Arnold Scwarzenegger had triple bipass surgery, but what alot dont know is his father had a bad heart too, you think it could have been hereditary? I work as a firefighter, I see really sick people everyday. And they arent all in their 70's and 80's, we get people in their 30's and 40's who are ready to die because they havent taken care of themselves their whole life. People on Oxygen and dyalisis to stay alive, with a pack of Newports on their nightstand. I can't tell you how many diabetic calls we get where somebody is in a ****ing seizure or a coma because they didnt take their insulin, or are too god damn stupid to know they need to eat or increase their sugar intake when they're feeling effects coming on. Some people just dont have enough appreciation for their own life to give a shit.
Now, take one of my good buddies for example, the guy is almost 51 years old, has been training for over 30 years now, probably juiced a total of 20 years out of that. He is on HRT, stays on GH and test all year long, as well as a bunch of other shit for bodybuilding purposes. The guy looks about 10-15 yrs younger than he really is, he has endurance that would put most high school and college athletes to shame, and he has a sense of well being that is nothing you'd see from an average 50 yr old man. I look at somebody who is 35 or 40 on my job who is a sack of shit just waiting around to die, and then I look at my buddy. So I guess what we are doing is pretty ****ing bad huh?

[PuertoRico1978]

I can't tell you how many diabetic calls we get where somebody is in a ****ing seizure or a coma because they didnt take their insulin, or are too god damn stupid to know they need to eat or increase their sugar intake when they're feeling effects coming on. Some people just dont have enough appreciation for their own life to give a shit.
Now, take one of my good buddies for example, the guy is almost 51 years old, has been training for over 30 years now, probably juiced a total of 20 years out of that. He is on HRT, stays on GH and test all year long, as well as a bunch of other shit for bodybuilding purposes. The guy looks about 10-15 yrs younger than he really is, he has endurance that would put most high school and college athletes to shame, and he has a sense of well being that is nothing you'd see from an average 50 yr old man. I look at somebody who is 35 or 40 on my job who is a sack of shit just waiting around to die, and then I look at my buddy. So I guess what we are doing is pretty ****ing bad huh?

Dude are you sure you should be a firefighter? You sound like you're on the verge of a roid rage. You'll beat someone up cause they get a "****ing seizure cause they are too god damn stupid to take their ****ing insulin".

Your buddy might be 50 years old and look good now, but I promise you he's not going to look good in 10-15 years. I mean taking GH with steroids is just the stupidest thing anybody could do, cause GH in itself also causes cardiac hypertrophy. Does he have gigantism yet?

Now I know some people check their cholesterol levels every 6 months, but did you know that steroids also cause elevations of homocysteine which might actually be worse for the heart than bad cholesterol. And even if you check your blood every 6 months how do you counteract high LDL/ VLDL from steroid use? You have to take more medications (statins) which have side effects of their own. Or you can quit which is the best thing to do.

Someone also mentioned HRT, but steroid use is nothing like HRT. In HRt you replace the testosterone that's not being produced and T is given in ***physiological*** doses only and this has positive effects on the heart and other organs.

I am not totaly against steroids for example if you weighed 400 pounds before and you took steroids and now are down to 180 pounds I don't think that's such a bad thing. But many if not most people on steroids take them for psychological reasons because they're depressed or have low self-confidence or just want to look good. What they don't consider is that they'll likely die 15-20 years earlier. If living 15-20 years less sounds acceptable to you than by all means keep on taking steroids. I guess what really pisses me off is these sites selling steroids, even to kids and teenagers, without ever mentioning the consequences. Back in 2000 when Marc McGwire was wacking all those home-runs Andro was all the rage and if you came to any steroid site they would tell you that you'd get huge from taking andro. They even had their own studies to back it up: Bulgarian women who have used andro had 300% elevations of their serum T. What they forgot to mention is that in men all of the androstenedione is aromatized to estrogen instead of testosterone.I have seen kids who have had irrervesible gynecomastia because of this and their chest looked like the breats of a teenage girl (bouncy and all). But I guess the guys on steroid.com assured them beforehand that taking andro is alright cause their buddy has been using it for 20 years

[texasmk4]

Cigs cause lunch cancer they cause heart attack how come people out there still smoking it? anything and everything is bad for you if you do it too much. You eat too much food you get sick, now you know you read every once in a while that someone is dead because of alcohal poisioning, yet people still drink. Bottom line everything has a limit.

[*Narkissos*]

I was gonna let you continue to rant and rave.. but it's becoming quite annoying.

So far all you've contributed here is a perpetuation of a bunch of stereotypes.

"Steroid users spend 5 hours daily in the mirror checking out their pecs"

"Oh My God! Steroid use is the stupidest thing an individual could do..thus by extension you all must be stupid"

"Roid rage 'eh?"

Time for you take a step back Mr. resident..and garner some real world experience.

The average reader here has more firsthand knowledge that the average doctor. That i know first hand.

The average writer here, a category in which i'd fall personally, has read and tried more, with regard to supraphysiological/supramaximal exogenous hormone application/manipulation... than the average endocrinologist. Heck, while working on a pharma. psych project at school i approached a doc for feedback on a hypothesis i generated: a multi-faceted approach to the treatment of pre-pubertal gynaecomastia..post-pubertally, via basically a dht-derivative (specifically drostanalone..as it's used in the treatment of malignant oestrogen-dependant growths in women); and a 3rd generation Aromatase inhibitor (one which down-regulates the PgR in addition to inhibiting the action of the aromatase enzyme). There were a couple other factors but for brevity i'll decline to expand. Anyway.. he was totally out of his league. Furthermore.. most of the docs i've approached are. Simply because while they do the whole regular doc workshops etc... they basically do no research. Pubmed? What's that. /pause rant

I'm not discounting the years of study you have undertaken to complete your residency... but don't come here and insult the intelligence of the readers here. A number of us are undergrad/grad chem; bio; biochem; pharma. psych majors etc. Read on and you'll realise you may learn something.

That being said... of course the average user knows the potential side effects. Additionally the average user understands the mediating factors with regard to the likelihood of the occurrence of said side effects. Additionally, the average reader knows the measures one should take to minimize or prevent the occurence of such sides. Left ventricle enlargement.. you keep alluding to. There's a dose-response curve in effect. Yes steroids increase left ventricle size.. but it's dose and duration dependant. Most users practise moderation and brevity within their cycles. Other factors determine whether this side will be malignant or benign.

Just like how the presence of genetic markers do not determine undisputedly that an individual will develop a disease.. rather it is the interaction of genetic predispositions and environmental factors. Environmental factors being variables such as lifestyle habits; eating habits; exercise habits etc. In this same vein, left ventricle enlargement solely will not automatically mean heart trouble later in life.

/pause rant

Dude are you sure you should be a firefighter? You sound like you're on the verge of a roid rage. You'll beat someone up cause they get a "****ing seizure cause they are too god damn stupid to take their ****ing insulin".

If you're stupid enough to not take your life-saving medicine you should be beat up lmao.

Your buddy might be 50 years old and look good now, but I promise you he's not going to look good in 10-15 years.

Is that jealousy? lol.. How can you 'gaurantee'? How many long-term steroid users have you treated? I know a large number...and they are times healthier than their peers.

Lemme see, a 50 year old steroid user who looks good; feels good v.s. a 50 year old with an enlarged prostate; gynaecomastia caused by declining testosterone levels.. increased estrogen (hormonal shift) and a like of beer; decreased bone mass (due to declined GH and test output..and decreased IGF-1 generation).. which would the general population prefer?

Hm.. which would be 'better'?

You do know that tha above example is the basis of HRT right?

As are the co-commital administration of GH and Testosterone right?

Both are shown to improve quality of life in both sexes.

I mean taking GH with steroids is just the stupidest thing anybody could do

Re: above.

Does he have gigantism yet?

Now that's the stupidest statement i've seen you utter yet

Are you sure you read your texts?

Acromegaly, from exogenous application, is dose and duration related.

It is uncommon in the general populace...and unheard of in the average GH user. Yes there are professional bodybuilders who have experienced an increase in bone mass; increased hand/feet size...but their dosages and administration are hyperbolized.

The average HRT dose for GH is 2 IUs daily administered all at once.. not pulsal.

The average steroid user uses 8 IUs... administered all at once.. not emulating the body's pulsal release of GH.. but rather administering in a burst manner... much like insulin administration.

The average pro uses 20 IUs of GH per day. This dosage and its effects are not comparable to what we do.

Compartively speakingi i think drinking and taking precript drugs: a thing most americans have admitted to doing; is many times more 'stupid'. But it's mainstream... Doesn't have the stigma attaced to it like steroid use does. I wonder who's healthier tho... show me your average drinker/smoker's blood panel..and i'll show you mine.

Now I know some people check their cholesterol levels every 6 months, but did you know that steroids also cause elevations of homocysteine which might actually be worse for the heart than bad cholesterol.

Folic acid.. 1mg per day.. lowers homocysteine levels.
Antioxidant supplementation prevents homocysteine's damaging oxidative effects. RE: Reservatrol

Shit doc.. this is just off the top of my head... I'm sure you could find all this stuff out if you read for a bit.

And even if you check your blood every 6 months how do you counteract high LDL/ VLDL from steroid use?

Correction.. most people get their blood panel analysis run before; during; and after cycles. Seeing that cycles last on average between 8-12 weeks this means Blood work every month...to every two months

LDL/VLDL elevation?

Statins are one route.. the newer ones having interesting properties of their own. Some with sides yes.

Statins aren't the sole route either (re: do some reading doc)... Nicotinic Acid (b3: Niacin) is normally supplemented on cycle.. and Niacin lowers both LDL and VLDL.

You have to take more medications (statins) which have side effects of their own. Or you can quit which is the best thing to do.

Someone also mentioned HRT, but steroid use is nothing like HRT. In HRt you replace the testosterone that's not being produced and T is given in ***physiological*** doses only and this has positive effects on the heart and other organs.

Actually that is incorrect. HRT/TRT is actually higher. The base count is total test v.s. free test. On HRT biologically active testosterone is higher.. even tho total count may correspond to the upper limit of 'normal'.

I am not totaly against steroids for example if you weighed 400 pounds before and you took steroids and now are down to 180 pounds I don't think that's such a bad thing. But many if not most people on steroids take them for psychological reasons because they're depressed or have low self-confidence or just want to look good.

Blanket statement.

What they don't consider is that they'll likely die 15-20 years earlier. If living 15-20 years less sounds acceptable to you than by all means keep on taking steroids.

Who cares if life expectancy is lower.. if quality of life is higher?

Currently, the average american is above the BMI.. obese rather...and not 'norderline obese' either. Their life expectancy is automatically lower..simply because carrying that extra weight places exhorbitant demands on the organs.. The weight also places micro stresses (re: micro trauma) on the conective tissues and musculo/skeletal systems... resulting in pain; reduced mobility; and low quality of life.

Either way.. the average person isn't going to live as long as grandpa did.

Somehow i'd think i'd like to live out my days feeling as good as i can..and living my life to the fullest. HRT/TRT/AAS-administration sounds good to me.

I guess what really pisses me off is these sites selling steroids, even to kids and teenagers, without ever mentioning the consequences.

Show me where we do any of the above

But I guess the guys on steroid.com assured them beforehand that taking andro is alright cause their buddy has been using it for 20 years

You really are anal.. has anyone every told you that?

My initial statement stands.

Do some more reading and be objective.

Medicine does not end with your text book.. It's only just beginning.

Without your objectivity you will be an ineffective doctor.

Narkissos

[Timm1704]

Dude are you sure you should be a firefighter? You sound like you're on the verge of a roid rage. what the hell is 'a roid rage?'You'll beat someone up cause they get a "****ing seizure cause they are too god damn stupid to take their ****ing insulin".

Your buddy might be 50 years old and look good now, but I promise you he's not going to look good in 10-15 years. I mean taking GH with steroids is just the stupidest thing anybody could do yep, even stupider than smoking, drinking excess alcohol, self-harm, cocaine use, shitty eating habits, cause GH in itself also causes cardiac hypertrophy. Does he have gigantism yet?

Now I know some people check their cholesterol levels every 6 months, but did you know that steroids also cause elevations of homocysteine which might actually be worse for the heart than bad cholesterol. And even if you check your blood every 6 months how do you counteract high LDL/ VLDL from steroid use? You have to take more medications (statins) which have side effects of their own. Or you can quit which is the best thing to do.

Someone also mentioned HRT, but steroid use is nothing like HRT. In HRt you replace the testosterone that's not being produced and T is given in ***physiological*** doses only and this has positive effects on the heart and other organs.

I am not totaly against steroids for example if you weighed 400 pounds before and you took steroids and now are down to 180 pounds didnt realise steroids could help someone lose weightI don't think that's such a bad thing. But many if not most people on steroids take them for psychological reasons because they're depressed or have low self-confidence or just want to look good. What they don't consider is that they'll likely die 15-20 years earlier. If living 15-20 years less sounds acceptable to you than by all means keep on taking steroids. I guess what really pisses me off is these sites selling steroids, even to kids and teenagers, without ever mentioning the consequences. Back in 2000 when Marc McGwire was wacking all those home-runs Andro was all the rage and if you came to any steroid site they would tell you that you'd get huge from taking andro. They even had their own studies to back it up: Bulgarian women who have used andro had 300% elevations of their serum T. What they forgot to mention is that in men all of the androstenedione is aromatized to estrogen instead of testosterone.I have seen kids who have had irrervesible gynecomastia because of this and their chest looked like the breats of a teenage girl (bouncy and all). But I guess the guys on steroid.com assured them beforehand that taking andro is alright cause their buddy has been using it for 20 years

lol those comments in bold show your ignorance right there. Thanks for your advice though, as yes, alot of what you say is true. good luck in your medical career, but dude, leave us alone

[*Narkissos*]

^^ ditto...should stick to basketball

[stupidhippo]

excellent post nark!!!!! so many false statements and inaccuracies there... .

[Bigmax]

Nark i was going to get involved but after all that...I'll just here and smile!!!..good going bro!!!..how've you been???

[*Narkissos*]

I'm cool... swamped with the final-year workload. End-of-semester exams are about to start...bah

Gonna shoot you a PM shortly..it's been too long

[FranKieC]

I love when Nark goes postal

[Ufa]

edit.

[PuertoRico1978]

The average writer here, a category in which i'd fall personally, has read and tried more, with regard to supraphysiological/supramaximal exogenous hormone application/manipulation... than the average endocrinologist. Heck, while working on a pharma. psych project at school i approached a doc for feedback on a hypothesis i generated: a multi-faceted approach to the treatment of pre-pubertal gynaecomastia..post-pubertally, via basically a dht-derivative (specifically drostanalone..as it's used in the treatment of malignant oestrogen-dependant growths in women); and a 3rd generation Aromatase inhibitor (one which down-regulates the PgR in addition to inhibiting the action of the aromatase enzyme). There were a couple other factors but for brevity i'll decline to expand. Anyway.. he was totally out of his league. Furthermore.. most of the docs i've approached are. Simply because while they do the whole regular doc workshops etc... they basically do no research. Pubmed? What's that. /pause rant

I'm not discounting the years of study you have undertaken to complete your residency... but don't come here and insult the intelligence of the readers here. A number of us are undergrad/grad chem; bio; biochem; pharma. psych majors etc. Read on and you'll realise you may learn something.


Narkissos

I disagree that you have more real-world experience, because I see at least 3 different roid users per week at the consultation / emergency departement where I worked at coming in for check-ups and sometimes steroid related health problems.
But I can see this is turning into a "I know more than you" type of arugment, so I'll let you have the last word. I still stand my point that it is very irresponsible to sell steroids to anyone under the age of 30, let alone teenagers or kids. If you're gonna use steroids use it on yourself and deal with the consequences, but don't advocate on selling it to other people.

[Bigmax]

Hey bro,Where do you see and sales of AAS going on here?????????...you're really off track here bro...Lets not mention that you have no clue of what your gums are flapping about....sounds to me like you lost your love one to someone that works out...sorry about that.But to come on here and start pointing fingers and accusations that you have no backing for really makes you sound pathetic...you dont sound like a Boriqua bro.

[Maldorf]

This guy's views are very polarized, black and white. Maybe with some more life experience he will see shades of gray.