Nandrolone Phenylpropionates dose dependant effects on bodyfat

[guest589745]

I have seen a few people post recently stating "Steroids don't help you burn fat" and happened across this study below using nandrolone as an example (the most interesting and clearly stated out of a few more similar studies). I thought it might be interesting to see what some of our knowledgable members here have to say about this study or that statement in general ("Steroids do not help you burn fat").

I personally have to disagree, everything I have ever read about and experienced proves (In my eyes) that steroids DO HELP (Key word HELP) burn fat. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum

Dose-dependent effects of an anabolic steroid, nandrolone phenylpropionate (Durabolin), on body composition and muscle protein metabolism in female rats.Choo JJ, Emery PW, Rothwell NJ.
Department of Nutrition, King's College, London, UK.

The effects of three doses (1, 4 and 10 mg/kg body weight) of an anabolic steroid, nandrolone phenylpropionate (NPP), on body weight and composition, and muscle protein metabolism were investigated in female rats. Daily injections of 1 mg/kg of NPP for 10 days caused a significant increase in weight gain which was associated with an increase in body protein (9%) without affecting body fat. At higher doses this effect on body weight was attenuated, resulting in no change in body weight at 10 mg/kg. However body protein content was still increased (9%) whereas body fat content was significantly reduced (32%). NPP did not affect metabolizable energy intake at any dose tested. Body energy gain and gross energetic efficiency were both significantly reduced in animals treated with a dose of 10 mg/kg. The mass and protein content of gastrocnemius muscle were significantly increased in animals injected with NPP at all doses. Muscle protein synthesis measured in vivo was also significantly stimulated at 1 and 4 mg/kg but was not affected at 10 mg/kg. These data confirm an anabolic action of NPP and suggest highly dose-dependent effects on other parameters such as body weight, fat deposition and muscle protein synthesis.
PMID: 1952814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Now out of curiosity, what would be the equivilant dose for a human to take?


Discuss if you wish.........

[BG]

I just added NPP into my cycle after dropping tren.

[guest589745]

Another thing, this study does not state whether the rats were trained or sedantary or what their diet consisted of either. Things to take into consideration....

[Jucinator2]

I agree, there are plenty of different compounds that I definatly lose wait on . On anavar 5mgs a day for 4 weeks she lost 13lbs of body fat while toneing up and she didnt change a thing just took the anavar no traing or dieting. I also lose body fat with tren , nnp at high doses 700 mgs a week, with winny , hell when i eat real clean i even lose body fat on test as long as i keep my estrogen levels in check.

[MuscleScience]

Another thing, this study does not state whether the rats were trained or sedantary or what their diet consisted of either. Things to take into consideration....

Did you have access to the full paper? general lab rats/mice/hampsters are feed a standard lab diet for uniformity across all trials. If they did change the diet it should be in the materials/methods portion of the paper.

[IBdmfkr]

I've yet to see any studies on humans.

[guest589745]

I've yet to see any studies on humans.

I know, but you still have to take it into consideration IMO.

The only studies I have found regarding humans involve primarily the negative effects from steroid abuse, nothing more.

[mick-g]

Im running it now. Great compound!! I found 400mg split 200mg Mon/Thru and good dosage. Thinkin about uping it alittle.

[guest589745]

Im running 800mg+ other compounds, only 2 1/2 weeks in though.

[MuscleScience]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation

You will like this one.
http://intl-jcem.endojournals.org/cg...ract/82/7/2044

This one is pretty techinical but its a pretty good paper. (note: had to get my genetics and cell biology book to understand half of it)
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/147/1/141

Short term AAS admin on Fat mass
http://www.andrologyjournal.org/cgi/...stract/26/1/85

transdermal AAS
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ract/89/5/2085

Good followup data
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/conten...ract/96/3/1055

Only study that I could find that conflicted with the rest so far. (fat mass)
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...tract/90/2/678

I just wanted to get a good sample of the literature out there. I tried to find all types of studies that show both side of the fat mass argument. I have access to full articles not just the abstacts through my work, however if you link to these you may not get the full article just the abstract. so dont flame me for not getting full text articles because I cant copy them and it took me a long time go back and find the papers on the web to forward on.
Hope this helps

[guest589745]

Cool, Ill read em later.

[guest589745]

Yea I have read a couple of those before.

[MuscleScience]

Yea I have read a couple of those before.

Yeah a couple of those are landmark papers. They came up in every database that I searched. However I had a hard time finding data to support the fact that AAS doesnt decrease or may increase fat. That might be a good indicator of the argument that AAS decrease body fat stores.

The first study I posted were they switched from Ox to deca thats a major problem with the study. I read the submission date and they must have had to revise the paper pretty extensively.

[guest589745]

This s the study that the profile of nandrone phenylpropionate was based off of at least partially, as far as I can tell.

fact: nandrolone phenylproponate (among others) (Helps) burns fat.

[kynetguy]

[B]Daily injections of 1 mg/kg of NPP for 10 days caused a significant increase in weight gain which was associated with an increase in body protein (9%) without affecting body fat. At higher doses this effect on body weight was attenuated, resulting in no change in body weight at 10 mg/kg.

They were refering to 1mg/kg PER DAY, I HAVE to assume that the 10mg/kg was per day as well, considering they called it a higher does.

Lets do that math. . .

220lbs=100kg

Thats 1000mg/day....PER DAY....

I know that's why you colored the 10mg/kg....but 10mg doesnt seem bad. Until you do the math.

Thats a LOT of Dura bro.

If normal doses deca can cause such things as testicular atrophy, insomnia, acne, deca dick. . . .OMFG, you would be awake 24/7, have shrunken balls and couldnt get it up to masterbate. . .


But look on the bright side, you would burn/decrease fat!

Where is Tai....we need a human (mostly human) subject here.

[guest589745]

I am not saying to translate the same amount from rat to human, I am just proving what it can do.

Think if you trained and ate properly (which they apparently didn't in the study ) what the results would potentially be even at a much lower dose.

[kynetguy]

I am not saying to translate the same amount from rat to human, I am just proving what it can do.

Think if you trained and ate properly (which they apparently didn't in the study ) what the results would potentially be even at a much lower dose.

I have wondered that about a lot of gear. . .especially ones considered cutting drugs. There are a lot of drugs out there that have TOTALLY different effects at different dosages and when administered differently. IM/IV/Oral. I mean, who's to say that Var isn;t the miracle fat burner at 10mg/day or at 200mg/day? (I know its not, just using that as an example)

[Ufa]

edit

[guest589745]

I have wondered that about a lot of gear. . .especially ones considered cutting drugs. There are a lot of drugs out there that have TOTALLY different effects at different dosages and when administered differently. IM/IV/Oral. I mean, who's to say that Var isn;t the miracle fat burner at 10mg/day or at 200mg/day? (I know its not, just using that as an example)

Cutting and bulking (losing fat and adding muscle to be more accurate, which CAN be done at the same time) can be done with virtually any steroid depending on your

training
diet
dose
duration

Not necessarily what compound IMO.

[kynetguy]

Cutting and bulking (losing fat and adding muscle to be more accurate, which CAN be done at the same time) can be done with virtually any steroid depending on your

training
diet
dose
duration

Not necessarily what compound IMO.

agreed. Mostly the differences are water retention/bloat.

[stupidhippo]

steroid increase metabolic rate and to make any sort of conclusions we should assess what the rats were fed.. aka where they on a cutter or bulker?
I suspect a high dose of NPP would have not burned fat if the caloric intake was adequate.. and that way they would have put on more muscle prolly.. also a lower diet would have ment more fat burned in the lower dose rats..

[fLgAtOr]

Another point to consider: Just becuase there is fat loss, or a reduction in bf%, doesn't mean there is additional "fat burning" going on. Fat burning, (to me) means raising your metabolism.

I think another part of this question is exploring why the fat loss occurs. For instance:

An increase in metabolism?
An increase in lean mass? (This alone will decrease bf%.)
Nutrient partitioning (like tren)?
Increase in IGF?
AR binding ability?
Etc.

Without answering this question, then just about all steroids "burn fat" becuase they will increase lean mass faster than increasing bf...Which means a "reduction" in bf%.

[perfectbeast2001]

yes i think we need to differentiate between "fat burning" and a change in lean mass. Based on my own experiences I would say that AS has not been an effective fat burner but has helped to increase/maintain lean mass while diet/cardio blasted the fat away.

[guest589745]

Another point to consider: Just becuase there is fat loss, or a reduction in bf%, doesn't mean there is additional "fat burning" going on. Fat burning, (to me) means raising your metabolism.

I think another part of this question is exploring why the fat loss occurs. For instance:

An increase in metabolism?
An increase in lean mass? (This alone will decrease bf%.)
Nutrient partitioning (like tren)?
Increase in IGF?
AR binding ability?
Etc.

Without answering this question, then just about all steroids "burn fat" becuase they will increase lean mass faster than increasing bf...Which means a "reduction" in bf%.

Once you figure out how nandrolone works, you can answer all those questions.

If you read through the study, it states that on higher doses, fat loss was the only thing that increased as compared to lower doses, so it is obviously not an increase in LBM that is causing a lower BF %

And one of the way steroids help burn fat is by their binding affinity to the AR located in all fat cells. This in turn helps release fats for energy consumption.

Nandrolone increases IGF-1 as well. Opps I am answering them for you.

[Snrf]

Skullsmasher, be a guinea pig!

take a gram a day! now!

[guest589745]

I am on 800mg right now, if I ever went to a gram I would lower something else to keep it right at 2g a week.

[stupidhippo]

i still think its impossible to make any conclusions before u know what the rats ate... i suggest that with an increase in AAS dose without increase in food more lipolysis will occur (if the amount of food ingested was at a certain level).. if they would have eaten more when on a higher dose perhaps more muscle would have been built on expense of fat burning??? I am oversimplifying here but u get my point..

[GHO5T]

you also have to consider that aas will help or aid in getting rid of BF in a cutter just like it will help or aid in gaining weight in a bulker (key word(s) being help/aid)

but what it comes down to in the end will be diet and training regime, aas will help in lowering bf if you have a spot on diet while on cycle, the more your diet is spot on the more gains you will see from the specific types of aas you use

[guest589745]

i still think its impossible to make any conclusions before u know what the rats ate... i suggest that with an increase in AAS dose without increase in food more lipolysis will occur (if the amount of food ingested was at a certain level).. if they would have eaten more when on a higher dose perhaps more muscle would have been built on expense of fat burning??? I am oversimplifying here but u get my point..

I believe study rodents are fed a diet of grain or something of that nature.

[spywizard]

ok, so no one has been lethargic using aas???

there are times i can't get up to go to the gym...

GH does that the worst for me.. t3 takes care of most of that..

[oswaldosalcedo]

ok, so no one has been lethargic using aas???

there are times i can't get up to go to the gym...

GH does that the worst for me.. t3 takes care of most of that..

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2006 Feb;38(2):256-61.

Chronic administration of anabolic androgenic steroid alters murine thyroid function.

Fortunato RS, Marassi MP, Chaves EA, Nascimento JH, Rosenthal D, Carvalho DP.

1Endocrine Physiology Laboratory, and 2Cardiac Electrophysiology Laboratory, Carlos Chagas Filho Biophysics Institute, Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, Rio de Janeiro, BRAZIL.

PURPOSE:: The administration of anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) to improve athletic performance has increased notably during the past three decades, even among nonathletes. Thyroid function is affected by AAS use in humans, although the mechanisms of the effects of AAS are unclear. We evaluated the effects on thyroid function of supraphysiologic doses of nandrolone decanoate (DECA), which is one of the most anabolic-androgenic steroids (AAS) used. METHODS:: Male Wistar rats were treated with vehicle or 1 mg.100 g body weight (b.w.) of DECA, once a week for 8 wk, intramuscularly. We analyzed thyroperoxidase (TPO) activity, type 1 iodothyronine deiodinase (D1) activities in liver, kidney, pituitary, and thyroid, and serum levels of total T3, total T4, free T4, and TSH. Parametric and nonparametric t-tests were employed for statistical analyses. RESULTS:: Treated animals showed a significant increase in the weight of kidneys and heart, and a decrease in the relative testis weight. Retroperitoneal adipose tissue was only slightly decreased. DECA treatment induced a significant increase in the absolute and relative thyroid gland weight. The concentrations of total serum T3, free T4, and TSH decreased significantly with treatment, but total serum T4 levels were unchanged. Thyroperoxidase activity was unaltered, whereas liver and kidney D1 activities were significantly increased, but pituitary and thyroid D1 did not change. CONCLUSION:: Our data indicate that DECA exerts direct actions on the thyroid gland and in the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones and might lead to thyroid dysfunction.

-----------------------------------------

my answer:
HYPOPITUITARISM -> HYPOADRENALISM ->HYPONATREMIA
......................... -> HYPOTHYROIDISM ->HYPONATREMIA


one of the main mechanisms responsible for water retention is induced Hypopituitarism (reduced output of any pituitary hormone) by displaced Glucocorticoids (GC) through Androgens at the GC receptors, acting by antagonist mode, therefore decreasing Corticotropin (ACTH) w/wo decreased Thyrotropin (TSH) release. Subsequent to the ACTH decreased secretion, inhibits cortisol segregation at adrenals (Central Hypoadrenalism - Secondary Adrenal Insufficiency). The cortisol suppression produces in the hypothalamus, vasopressin (AVP) release, also known like anti diuretic hormone (ADH), this way GC insufficiency increases AVP mRNA expression, elevating abnormally, AVP levels, gives an increase in free water retention, decreased sodium pump activity, shift of extracellular sodium into cells and decreased delivery of filtrate to diluting segments of the nephron as a result of decreased glomerular filtration rate and effective renal plasma flow . GC inhibit AVP secretion by impairing AVP gene transcription.
The possible decreased TSH produces a central hypothyroidism ( trophoprivic, suprathyroid hypothyroidism),which can produces lethargy, apathy , edema, myxedema megacolon; a distended and hanging colon, facial edema and others.


solution 50-100 mcg T4,synthroid ed.
i have developed several times hypothyridism from roids.
0.2 ng/dl free T4,normal levels 0.8-2.0 ng/dl free T4.

[guest589745]

ok, so no one has been lethargic using aas???

there are times i can't get up to go to the gym...

GH does that the worst for me.. t3 takes care of most of that..

I almost always am, it is my biggest problem. What do you do about it ?

[skipp]

...he said he takes t3.

How do you like the npp so far skull? Holding any water?

[guest589745]

...he said he takes t3.

How do you like the npp so far skull? Holding any water?

Eh, not so much that is noticeable besides my face. Up 11-13 lbs 3 weeks in. I have noticed a HUGE differnce in my shoulder.

I am not sure if it is the fact that I made it or that it is faster esters, that is making so much of a difference.