Big DHT Discussion!

[Random]

Ok..where to start, as many of you know im a very serious bodybuilder looking to advance in competition while staying relatively safe and health, i started using dutasteride about a year ago after some concern after a cycle was cut short 3 wks in from an injury--(i noticed some hairloss before using dutasteride). The dutasteride has been going great! within 2 wks of starting it all the hairloss ceased, months after that my hair continuously seemed to be in better condition and now im at a point where i barely notice any natural hairloss at all--which was the goal. However ive been doin a lot of research-most of which i already knew---but it just hit me today at how much ive been shorting myself physique-wise, even though ive made excellent gains naturally throughout the year and ive been at my weakest this past year...but with proper nutrition and rest ive overcome any lack of strengths and was able to continously gain muscle despite slaughtering my natural DHT levels (when i wasnt even cycling!)..

I really dont think i have much MPB in my genes however i have been paranoid before---yea ill be honest, im 23 and my hair Does mean something to me, i have a horrible shaped head! and my wife wouldnt like it if i used tren and got huge and bald in one year! (yea ive thought about it several times!) I realize at some point i will let go of my hair image and decide that i do want to do whats best from a scientific standpoint and use the strong androgenic, DHT compounds to get in the best shape of my life, and who knows, maybe win a good show..? The thing is, ive advanced so much naturally which made me avoid thinking at how reducing my DHT could seriously reduce my gains in strength-induced size..im doing weights that i used to hit in high school and yet i grew like a Weed!

the truth is, i was shooting myself bigtime by continuing to use the dutasteride when i wasnt using test..which certainly had to reduce strength gains for me throughout the year...but hey we live and learn right, and im writing this so that other paranoid users can avoid my mistakes, i was lucky enough to keep a flawless diet which kept me growing the whole year..so hey guys, i know hair means alot, and it does to me too, ive ben able to avoid most DHT compounds and make great gains, test with dutasteride works Great for me, anavar has worked Awesome, and the latest primo at high doses is working amazing with no hairloss!!!

i varied my use between .25mg of dutasteride ED and .5mg ED while cycling with test, the thing is, what i should have done is stop using the duta while i wasnt cycling, im not even sure why i continued to use it!!!?

Heres a couple quotes from Patrick Arnold that kinda opened up my eyes!...

"What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to mention optimal sexual function and libido."

"I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver."





so a couple questions that were on my mind...

im using test now--with dutasteride (trying to find a minimum dose thats effective for me) ...i ran out because of an ordering problem and ive been off dutasteride for 1 wk and notice NO increased hairloss at all, so my question is how long does dutasteride stay in your system? whats the half life?

and another thing that was bothering me, during my last contest, even after i stopped the test prop 2 wks out, once again i dont know why, but i continued to use dutasteride...so how much could that have affected my hardness level at the show? thanks guys, anything DHT related feel free to comment about anything...

CD

[Random]

bump?

[Random]

Bump round 2??? anyone use duta year round also?

[JohnboyF]

bump for marcus,buff, nark etcc.

[Random]

Yea i was waitin on marcus and vitor for this one...even though i know marcus doesnt care about hair!!!

[JohnboyF]

CPD, we got bajan in..

[BajanBastard]

Ok, ok where to start.

First studies show that 5a-blocker don't inhibit the anabolic effects of testosterone but although DHT is not anabolic in muscle tissue for too long it still contributes to the overall anabolic effects of testosterone......... so in a nutshell, dutasteride may indeed limit your gains.

5a-blockers may shift your androgenic balance (via lowering DHT levels) thus causing water retention, fat gains or gyno (see the avodart ad?) so using the duta during the comp may have affected your hardness.

[Random]

Good deal..im sure vitor will respond too, hes been helpin me out alot with cycle ideas and hes got some good concepts about DHT

[Random]

Ok, ok where to start.

First studies show that 5a-blocker don't inhibit the anabolic effects of testosterone but although DHT is not anabolic in muscle tissue for too long it still contributes to the overall anabolic effects of testosterone......... so in a nutshell, dutasteride may indeed limit your gains.

5a-blockers may shift your androgenic balance (via lowering DHT levels) thus causing water retention, fat gains or gyno (see the avodart ad?) so using the duta during the comp may have affected your hardness.

Good points Bajan, yea i completely agree that it does have some effect on growth, mostly strength in my case....but yea it really didnt seem to slow my gains down directly, just indirectly lowering my strength ratios..

yea thats too bad about the comp!!! what was i thinking!! i clearly wasnt!! looking forward to next season tho...i lowered my duta dose today to minimal maintenance amounts to see if that will increase my strength..and once i go off the test i will stop taking it...(how long does it last in the body after stopping?)

CD

[Random]

And a follow-up would be: some guys complain about noticable hairloss after ceasing a cycle...so with that in consideration how long should one continue taking DHT blockers after you stop the cycle (test)? to avoid further scalp aggravation? thanks

[Random]

Trust me im not that paranoid guys! in fact i dont think im that prone to hairloss either, im just trying to clear up some things ive wondered about DHT...

[AnabolicBoy1981]

well dht is actually about 6 times as potent as test, even in muscles, however it degrades almost instantly into a weaker metabolite once in the muscle which is very weak.
As far as CNS stimulation it still is very imortant. My younger brother played with propecia, and noticed increaded intensity, agression, in the gym when OFF of it. Libido better too.
Dht blocks estrogen and therefore is not great to have low levels when trying to get a "harder" contest ready look. I asked one gym memeber if he got fat on propecia and he said he thinks he might have. Not "fat" fat, but a little smoother. If you can still lose weight at .25mg a day during a cut phase i wouldnt nix it yet.

My plan is to keep cycles test based, us 5ar inhibitors and AI's and , and pop a few anavars before workouts. Var is pricy though, but a scalp frienndly dht derivative. I will also be using azealic acid, rogaiane and Nizerol shampoo when on, and keep my fingers crossed. JMO

[vitor]

DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity onn tissues, and possible acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen recepter or by decreasing estrogen recepter binding. So, decreasing DHT levels will increase estrogen levels which can make you hold water. (Not good b/f a competion.)

The 2 other importens activitys of DHT are CNS-strenght, and dht also seem to be active in those nerve-cells responseble for erictile-function(libido). Since DHT is not very active in muscle tissue it shoudnt slow gains down to much(probaly a little).
This explains why Proviron is not anabolic, but can work as a aromatase inhibitor, libido enhancer and increase strenght. (Proviron has as a structure similar to DHT.)

[Random]

DHT directly inhibits estrogenic activity onn tissues, and possible acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen recepter or by decreasing estrogen recepter binding. So, decreasing DHT levels will increase estrogen levels which can make you hold water. (Not good b/f a competion.)

The 2 other importens activitys of DHT are CNS-strenght, and dht also seem to be active in those nerve-cells responseble for erictile-function(libido). Since DHT is not very active in muscle tissue it shoudnt slow gains down to much(probaly a little).
This explains why Proviron is not anabolic, but can work as a aromatase inhibitor, libido enhancer and increase strenght. (Proviron has as a structure similar to DHT.)

Vitor

great points man...

DHT levels will increase estrogen levels which can make you hold water. (Not good b/f a competion.)

I gotcha..i make sure to cut it for next years competition...

[Random]

My plan is to keep cycles test based, us 5ar inhibitors and AI's and , and pop a few anavars before workouts. Var is pricy though, but a scalp frienndly dht derivative. I will also be using azealic acid, rogaiane and Nizerol shampoo when on, and keep my fingers crossed. JMO

AB..i think thats a good plan man, thats been my plan for a while even though i havent cycled much...i dont lose Any hair while using test and dutasteride...never had any libido issues while using it either...

i used Var with amazing success and ill continue to use that mostly to boost my strength...its very cheap though if you look around, or get the powder and mix yourself...

CD

[spooledup]

I've been using beta sitosterol, which is a strong 5ar inhibitor, thereby reducing DHT. The reason is that during my last cycle I used winstrol for 6 weeks and it gives me terrible acne. Beta sitosterol has cured my acne (at least while I take it) so I assume DHT is in fact responsible for acne. Beta sitosterol has worked better for my acne then anything I've ever taken...including accutane. And I really haven't noticed any side effects.

DHT also aggravates the prostate and supposedly promotes balding.

I have noticed a little weight gain, but overall strength is unchanged. DHT is a powerful androgen, which does have some positive aspects such as quick recovery and possible lower BF percentage. But I can't live with big zits on my face.

IIRC, 5ar is generated from prolactin which is secreted from the pituitary. I'm getting ready to use some tren with my next cycle so I wonder how beta sitosterol would affect the useage of tren, since tren affects prolactin levels.

[Random]

Spooledup

i dont see the point of using DHT blockers with DHT based drugs like tren and winstrol since they Are Not effective against anything other than test conversion to DHT..?????

[spooledup]

Well there is a subtle difference between winstrol and tren when it comes to DHT. Winstrol is a DHT derivative but doesn't convert to DHT, while tren does convert to DHT. And I forget the mechanism by which tren converts, if tren uses the 5ar to convert or not.

I don't know if beta sitosterol will keep my acne away on cycle or not, and if it does will it affect my gains or not. But I can't live with cystic acne.

It's also strange how winstrol is considered low androgenic AS but gives me a bad androgenic repsonse (acne) through DHT. What really sucks is long after I use winstrol I keep the acne. I'll be perfectly clear then start 50mg/day winstrol, 10 days latter the zits come marching in with fury. Winstrol has a more pronounced affect on my strength than any AS though..kind of strange.

[Random]

if tren uses the 5ar to convert or not.

Im almost positive it doesnt use the 5ar....good stuff tho..

It's also strange how winstrol is considered low androgenic AS but gives me a bad androgenic repsonse (acne) through DHT. What really sucks is long after I use winstrol I keep the acne. I'll be perfectly clear then start 50mg/day winstrol, 10 days latter the zits come marching in with fury. Winstrol has a more pronounced affect on my strength than any AS though..kind of strange

Lol marching!!!! yea that sucks man...ive never tried winstrol, not sure if i will but everyone ive known that used it got massive strength gains so i consider it moderate to highly androgenic...CD

[Random]

Heres a quote from Anthony Robert's profile...

Anyway, Halo is a testosterone derived steroid, and has an 11-beta group attached to it to inhibit aromatization, although it is particularly prone to being 5-alpha-reduced and may thus cause DHT related side effects, such as acne and hairloss.

Nark kinda cleared it up for me, just kinda wondering what others thought on this....so if halo is prone to being reduced to the 5-AR does this mean that some of the DHT (Hairloss) can be avoided using DHT blockers? Anthony said possibly...

[spooledup]

Beta sitosterol also know as phytosterols, is said to work in a very similar fashion to propecia when it comes to controlling hair loss. Doctors, pharmaceutical companies, etc... won't acknowledege this research because they can't make money off something you can buy online OTC at $7 for 60 tablets.

While some consider phytosterols to be plant steroids, they are actually forms of cholesterol, which are alcohol soluable (not water soluable), and are considered to modulate hormones, but are not hormones themselves.

Saw palmetto has phytosterols, which is why it has been used successfully to treat prostate conditions by inhibition of the 5ar to convert test to DHT. Again, some in the medical community are reluctant to acknowledge this.

As far as I'm aware, we have to have two things to generate DHT. Testosterone and 5ar. Propecia works by either blocking production of the 5ar enzyme or inhibiting it's affinity to bind test ( I forget exactly how).

I just wish I wold have known about beta sitosterol years ago when I had acne early in college. All the time, money, and grief could have been solved with a readily available and cheap organic supplement.

This is a very good topic, and if we could get someone who really knows his/her bio-chemistry, we could learn alot about an important subject.

[Random]

"This is a very good topic, and if we could get someone who really knows his/her bio-chemistry, we could learn alot about an important subject."


Yea i agree, im still tryin to find the half-life of dutasteride and its effectiveness against halotestin if at all...??

[Random]

Ok i just found it :

Half-Life AVODART / DUTASTERIDE/ 6hrs - 15hrs

thats weird because i ran out of dutasteride for 1 wk and did notice ANY increase in hairloss while on test...no itchy or hot scalp either..hmm

[Billytk03z]

Can beta sisterol be applied topically for a topical dht blocking effect?

[king6]

Can beta sisterol be applied topically for a topical dht blocking effect?

Of all the topicals I have researched, I read that spiro is the best. But good luck finding some that doesn't smell like horse ass.

[Random]

LOL nice king!

[G-1000]

Half-life refers to the time (usually in hours) required for one-half the dose of a drug to be excreted from the body. The following half-life information about Avodart™ or dutasteride is found in the prescribing information:

"The terminal half-life of dutasteride is approximately 5 weeks at steady state. The average steady-state serum dutasteride concentration was 40 ng/mL following 0.5 mg/day for 1 year. Following daily dosing, dutasteride serum concentrations achieve 65% of steady-state concentration after 1 month and approximately 90% after 3 months. Due to the long half-life of dutasteride, serum concentrations remain detectable (greater than 0.1 ng/mL) for up to 4 to 6 months after discontinuation of treatment. "


This is good becuase you can stop running it. Run a dht for 6 weeks then get back on. You will probley have very little hairloss to none.

[Billytk03z]

one thing I read about dut and fin that when used over an extended period time is the penile tissue deformities that develop.... obviously this happens over years of use....

[richard_orchard]

It might take a few weeks or more to see if there is any hairloss after stopping taking dutesteride or whatever. Hair life-cycle is usually about 4 months. Not sure if there is a gradual build up either.

Also, just cos you don't experience hair loss now, doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. Your genetics could indicate that in two years, you are likely to loose hair.

Quite frankly - i would prefer to have hair than most other things. My gut feeling is I don't think that there would be much difference (or any) to muscle development whilst using it.

[T3/T4 GSR]

If DHT based drugs give you acne wash the prone areas with nizoral it is known to help.

[Random]

Gsxxr thanks for that info man!

CD

[perfectbeast2001]

hair is way over rated IMO.

[Halfcenturian]

Of all the topicals I have researched, I read that spiro is the best. But good luck finding some that doesn't smell like horse ass.

It actually comes in 3 smells: Horse ass. Rotten Eggs , and Cat piss.

Fukc your hair. You're a bobybuilder. If you head looks like Joseph Merrick, wear a hat. Buy a Toupe. Get a Ken Doll, hair plug transplant.

Do a Google for topical Spiro.There's one with NO SMELL. Dr. Lee.

[G-1000]

hair is way over rated IMO.

That is bacause you dont have any.

[Random]

That is bacause you dont have any

Agreed...the point of the thread was not too see if hair matters or not in bodybuilding tho....

[G-1000]

I think you will be ok with short runs of dht compounds. I would stop the dutasteride. Then start a mild dht run it for 5 6 weeks. As soon as you atop the dht restart the dutasteride.

I think you will have min hair loss. Your diet will be key when your back on the dutasteride to keep the hard look.

[Random]

Oh yea...im just glad i realized my mistakes from last years comp, and yes i have stopped the duta..as im finding out i dont think im prone to hairloss that much anyway...

CD

[Random]

I think the halflife post though will help others choosing to use DHT blockers to use them more effectively in their cycles if they are prone...thanks Gsxxr

[G-1000]

Dht sucks. It's one of those things you wont but dont wont.

[Random]

Dht sucks. It's one of those things you wont but dont wont

Yea i know what ya mean! you want those big strength gains, added hardness but not an enlarged prostate later on!