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Thread: Deca Only

  1. #1
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    Exclamation Deca Only

    Now i know what everyone is gonna say about a deca only cycle and i understand that most people disagree with them but i would still like to ask the question what is the best thing to do for pct for a cycle like this. i have been taking 300mgs of deca twice a week for almost nine weeks now and i was curious as to when the best time to start the pct would be. for the record i have not suffered from anything even close to deca-dick (and my gf can vouch for that) but i have seemed to have slightly less energy than usual. other than that the only real side effects i have noticed is some acne on my shoulders and back but thats about it. So far i have put on about 18 pounds and have noticed a pretty significant increase in all around strength. this is not my first cycle buy all my previous cycles were test only and i now know there were somewhat underdosed so i did not see as good of results (and possibly cuz it was mexi gear). any imput will be greatly appreciated

  2. #2
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    What're your stats?

    Deca only cycles are fine as long as the sides don't bother you or are well tolerated by your body... but yes, strength will go through the roof because your joints are also well lubricated. Deca could shut you down hard, so have some HCG ready for the final week of the deca and 2 weeks of the recommended waiting period between your last deca shot and first day of PCT therapy (a total of 3 wks of HCG). I'm old school in the sense that I like the clomid/nolva/proviron combo for PCT despite other better and newer compounds being out there. After all, It's always worked for me

    I'm sure other bros could give other PCT suggestions ... or look up the stickies

    cheers

  3. #3
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    I preffer EQ over deca....

    but if you're making gains, stick with it And i'm with insane on the pct spot on imho. - peace

  4. #4
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    Never was a fan of the Deca shut down... I will never run deca without test again. The rumors about deca dick are true... You will need some heavy PCT on a Deca only cycle. HCG is what I used to bring it all back... I think I was running 500 IU E4D for the last 4 weeks of my cycle.... I'll have to check my old cycle logs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juicy_brucy
    Never was a fan of the Deca shut down... I will never run deca without test again. The rumors about deca dick are true... You will need some heavy PCT on a Deca only cycle. HCG is what I used to bring it all back... I think I was running 500 IU E4D for the last 4 weeks of my cycle.... I'll have to check my old cycle logs.

    i see your point but on the shut down and heavy pct requirements but taking hcg 4 upto the end of your cycle was a waste imo,as you would be shut down for a further 3 weeks by the deca in your system,unless you stopped the deca early?

    it would be best to start hcg when you start you pct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by McQueen
    i see your point but on the shut down and heavy pct requirements but taking hcg 4 upto the end of your cycle was a waste imo,as you would be shut down for a further 3 weeks by the deca in your system,unless you stopped the deca early?

    it would be best to start hcg when you start you pct.

    no its best to run HCG throughout the cycle and then use a SERM and AI for PCT, especially with supressive compounds. Ive found I recover much quicker if I run 500-1000 IU's of HCG/wk during a cycle

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    I'll share my deca only experience. I ran 3 weeks of just deca at 500mg and seriously I had no libido shut down in that time whatsoever. Never got deca dick... although it probably takes longer for total HPTA shutdown. Anyways, it did make me an emotional mess. So much that I decided it would be best to add test and sure enough I felt better after a few days of injecting test e.

    I made a pretty big stink over deca dick and what not being blown out of proportion but personally, the natural test shutdown really ****ed me up. I felt like I was PMS'ing. Just an FYI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by longhorn814
    no its best to run HCG throughout the cycle and then use a SERM and AI for PCT, especially with supressive compounds. Ive found I recover much quicker if I run 500-1000 IU's of HCG/wk during a cycle
    Me too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juicy_brucy
    Me too.

    hell, Im only running a gram of primo/wk right now and Ive been running 500 IU's once a week since week 3...of course some prop/tren/masteron will be added shortly though too!!!

  10. #10
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    the fatigue ur experiencing would go with a small amount of test,and yeh old school pct for me too nolva/clo

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    I do not understand why anyone would run hcg throughout a cycle? You can permanently damage your self with no positive effects other than increasing your testes. Is it your concerned about your testes size? It's like trying to do a pct while your on a cycle, it just doesn't make sense, you do your pct when your trying to get your HPTA back up not when your shutting it down.

  12. #12
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    I have the full article if anybody is interested..the link will just get ***** on here..Im a firm believer in HCG during cycle helps with recovery so much more

    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that is used in place of LH to stimulate hormone production from the gonads.1 LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone. When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.2-6,19 However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle. Though, we will learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

    Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand the most efficient way to use it. Many popular "steroid profiles" advocate an hCG dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency.85,86 That is, testes desensitize when not presented with a sufficient LH signal. In men with normal LH levels and testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only ~250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu.2,11 (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above base line.12-18) So, if you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

    To get an idea of how quickly testicular degeneration occurs from your average multi-AAS cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration.2,9,10 By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.2-6 It should be mentioned that visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone.4 This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, testicular size may appear normal on a cycle, but the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly diminished.3-5

    The decreased testosterone secretion capacity was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.8 In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size.7 Other studies with men using low dose steroid implants for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks.6

    These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a cycle, increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG, estrogen will be increased disproportionately, which then causes further HPTA suppression while increasing the risk of gyno.11 For example, high doses of hCG are known to raise estradiol 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%.11 Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes12,13,19 (the last thing someone wants during recovery). While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a drug such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM. (covered in the next section)

    In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle. Based on studies with normal men using steroids, ~100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG.2 It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular degeneration occurs, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.

    Recap – For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first AAS dose. Drop the hCG a week before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.

    A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

  13. #13
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    thanks for all the advice but i do have one more question. i have always had pretty sore shoulders and i do have a form of tendonitis in one of my shoulder. i know that many guys that lift heavy weight experience some form of joint pain. lately for some reason it has got really bad and i will wake up in the middle of the night and will be unable to move my arms cuz my shoulders hurt so bad. what could be causing this or what could the problem be. its wierd cuz when i first wake up in the morning i can barely move but by night time it almost doesnt hurt at all. and the pain is consistent meaning it has happened everyday for the last couple weeks and it seems to be getting worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kfrost06
    I do not understand why anyone would run hcg throughout a cycle? You can permanently damage your self with no positive effects other than increasing your testes. Is it your concerned about your testes size? It's like trying to do a pct while your on a cycle, it just doesn't make sense, you do your pct when your trying to get your HPTA back up not when your shutting it down.
    I think the HCG use has gotten out of hand as well, and people might be hurting rather than helping themselves.
    Last edited by Kratos; 07-10-2007 at 03:14 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serotonin
    I'll share my deca only experience. I ran 3 weeks of just deca at 500mg and seriously I had no libido shut down in that time whatsoever. Never got deca dick... although it probably takes longer for total HPTA shutdown. Anyways, it did make me an emotional mess. So much that I decided it would be best to add test and sure enough I felt better after a few days of injecting test e.

    I made a pretty big stink over deca dick and what not being blown out of proportion but personally, the natural test shutdown really ****ed me up. I felt like I was PMS'ing. Just an FYI.
    I will still recommend him to take a test in addition to the deca.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kratos
    I think the HCG use has gotten out of hand as well, and people might be hurting rather than helping themselves.
    can u elaborate on the bold phrase once again and why u think it is the case?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by S431M7
    can u elaborate on the bold phrase once again and why u think it is the case?
    HCG will trigger negative feedback inhibition at the hypothalamus.

    HCG wwill increase estrogen production due to its ability to increase aromatase activity in the Leydig's cells.

    HCG will increase aromatizing of androgens several times greater than normal.

    All of these will send negative feedback to the hypothalamus causing further suppression of the HPT axis.

  18. #18
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    so what do u recommend for reversing deca dick? what do u consider appropriate for recovery from stacking say deca and test?

    Quote Originally Posted by kfrost06
    HCG will trigger negative feedback inhibition at the hypothalamus.

    HCG wwill increase estrogen production due to its ability to increase aromatase activity in the Leydig's cells.

    HCG will increase aromatizing of androgens several times greater than normal.

    All of these will send negative feedback to the hypothalamus causing further suppression of the HPT axis.

    Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that is used in place of LH to stimulate hormone production from the gonads.1 LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone. When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.2-6,19 However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle. Though, we will learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

    Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand the most efficient way to use it. Many popular "steroid profiles" advocate an hCG dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency.85,86 That is, testes desensitize when not presented with a sufficient LH signal. In men with normal LH levels and testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only ~250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu.2,11 (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above base line.12-18) So, if you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

    To get an idea of how quickly testicular degeneration occurs from your average multi-AAS cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration.2,9,10 By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.2-6 It should be mentioned that visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone.4 This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, testicular size may appear normal on a cycle, but the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly diminished.3-5

    The decreased testosterone secretion capacity was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.8 In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size.7 Other studies with men using low dose steroid implants for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks.6

    These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a cycle, increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG, estrogen will be increased disproportionately, which then causes further HPTA suppression while increasing the risk of gyno.11 For example, high doses of hCG are known to raise estradiol 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%.11 Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes12,13,19 (the last thing someone wants during recovery). While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a drug such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM. (covered in the next section)

    In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle. Based on studies with normal men using steroids, ~100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG.2 It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular degeneration occurs, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.

    Recap – For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first AAS dose. Drop the hCG a week before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.

    A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)
    Last edited by S431M7; 07-10-2007 at 03:36 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfrost06
    HCG will trigger negative feedback inhibition at the hypothalamus.

    HCG wwill increase estrogen production due to its ability to increase aromatase activity in the Leydig's cells.

    HCG will increase aromatizing of androgens several times greater than normal.

    All of these will send negative feedback to the hypothalamus causing further suppression of the HPT axis.

    a low dose of 500 IU's/wk will most likely not cause any of those problems..see my previous post in this thread

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by S431M7
    so what do u recommend for reversing deca dick? what do u consider appropriate for recovery from stacking say deca and test?
    There is no doubt that hcg mimics LH and increases ITT but in terms of restoring the HPTA, hcg, IMO should be used at the end of a cycle for a "quick use" for testes that have been completely shut down then it's all about suppressing the negative feedback in order to get the hypothalamus producing GnRH.

    As for Deca sex drive I use test during the cycle and use test for 1-2weeks after you stop deca(or any 19-nor) use. When coming off a cycle you will always have a "lagging" peroid, the goal is to minimize that peroid.

    Third, the article posted is interesting but I would like to see references for it. Where did it come from? I know the verdict is still out on hcg use during a cycle it is my opinion that hcg is better utilizide at the end of a cycle, hcg is over used, and hcg is far from a PCT miracle drug that it often is pumped to be.

  21. #21
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    if anybody would like the full article with references, PM me and I will give you the link..the stupid filter on here will block it out if I post it

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    Quote Originally Posted by S431M7
    can u elaborate on the bold phrase once again and why u think it is the case?
    It's a powerful drug, that in most cases is not nessicary. It has been linked to seminiferous tubule damage in rats and to a lesser extent humans (a specific population). The hypersensitivity of the testis to FSH/LH that will result in my mind in not using HCG is a good thing durring recovery. Running HCG cycle long will in my mind cause some decrease in sensitivity to the lydig and prolong FULL recovery, render estogen dependant pct less useful. Use it if you need it and as sparingly as possible, that's my position.

  23. #23
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    The way I beleive HCG should be used is only to get a leg up on geting the testicles back up and running just prior to PCT. Glands can go up and down in size and activity with no ill effects.

  24. #24
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    the way i see it is:

    if i were to run hcg it would be a week after the last injection,depending on the compound,use a low dose so as not to hinder recovery,continue that for 3 weeks until the deca is at minimal levels in the blood,and use it the first week of pct.

    why? because i will have some test in my body while im starting pct(possibily in a catabolic state) plus my balls will be back in the house or at least theyll be getting a head start.riunning it at the end of a cycle and stopping at the last injection is a waste imo,they will immediatley begin to shrink and become non-functional again,because you will be shut down fully at this stage of the game.

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    kfratos, I think u have good knowledge on the topic. keep that up.
    To those who feel discredited for the cut-n-paste without in quotation u may need to do more reading on the rules to paraphrase someone else piece of work before bragging yourself as the main source. lol
    Last edited by S431M7; 07-10-2007 at 04:49 PM.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by S431M7
    kfratos, I think u have good knowledge on the topic. keep that up.
    To those who feel discredited for the cut-n-paste without in quotation u need to do more reading on the rules to paraphrase someone else piece of work. lol
    ive already said twice I'll give anybody the link to the full article that asks for it..the filter on this site will block the link to the URL..thats only a small part of the article that was relevant to this thread..kratos makes some good points as well, Im posting my experiences and what worked for me and an article that backs up my experiences..please refrain from telling me how to cut and paste stuff

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    do u feel discredited, shorthorn, if so I didn't mean u?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by S431M7
    do u feel discredited, shorthorn, if so I didn't mean u?
    not my work, but I know the guy who wrote it and he knows what the hell he is talking about..let me guess youre either an aggie or a sooner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by longhorn814
    not my work, ........
    ..that's why I said at first u might want to familier yourself with the rules of crediting a source so it does not appear as if u are trying to intellectuallly cheat others! lol

    ......let me guess youre either an aggie or a sooner?
    ...guessing will not help u figure out the truth, all u need to do is ASK in proper manner and u will be told what u don't know.

    Take no shame in being ignorant cause we 're all born without knowledge untill we learnt them.

    Remember that?

    Last edited by S431M7; 07-10-2007 at 05:52 PM.

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