Does GH and Insulin have to be taken at the same time for synergistic effect?

[Polska]

I take my GH in the morning usually around 3-4iu. Its been working really well regarding fat loss. I take around 8iu of slin PWO only. I am also on 500mg test a week at the moment. I workout three days a week (M/W/F).

Since I take my GH in the morning and slin in the evening (PWO) am I still getting the synergy effect of the two regarding increased IGF-1? I know its recommended to take insulin with GH, but does that mean they have to be taken together at the same time or just in the same day?

[rbfallon]

I've read that you don't want to talk it pwo with your insulin because you don't want to consume carbs 1hr before or after injection, and you will definitely need to consume carbs after insulin. From my understanding taking your hgh pre-workout is the best option if doing 3IU's or less. If doing more than 3IU's do 1/2 when you wake up and 1/2 pre-workout.

[Polska]

I've read that you don't want to talk it pwo with your insulin because you don't want to consume carbs 1hr before or after injection, and you will definitely need to consume carbs after insulin. From my understanding taking your hgh pre-workout is the best option if doing 3IU's or less. If doing more than 3IU's do 1/2 when you wake up and 1/2 pre-workout.

I've heard you do not want to take HGH with carbs because of hindered glucose uptake, yes, but when taking it with insulin this is supposedly a non-issue as the insulin shuttles the glucose... ?

[rbfallon]

You're right......this is a question for Gear.....

[RedBaron]

It really depends on what your goals are. There are a zillion-and-one factors that we could throw into the mix, and certainly there are a number of strategies that would make good sense. As with most things that we do, there are so many facets and variables to be considered that there is rarely a "simple" answer that will fit all situations.

I wouldn't say that you have to take them at the same time of day to gain the benefits of their use ... but certainly using them together does have merit in the right circumstance. They compliment each other in the nutrients they shuttle to your muscles, they compliment each other in not allowing your BG level to raise too significantly during the active window of the HGH by compensating for the insulin resistant state you will be in (if your body responds significantly in that way), and they certainly will make for a big secretion of IGF from your liver (though the question is how important that particular secretion is to muscle growth in normal adults ... it is certainly a factor for growing children and adolescents).

If you are only interested in elevating your IGF levels and creating a good environment for growth, then taking them together is a reasonable plan. You may lose a little bit of the fat burning effect of HGH ... to what degree would be questionable and really somewhat dependent on your own body. I have taken them together and still remained lean ... but my nutrition is usually pretty militant anyway.

A strategy I have used in the past with good success in the past is to take HGH before a workout, with insulin after the workout. Using the HGH subQ and then a couple of hours later using the insulin IM, the timing should be getting the pass through the liver within a reasonable window for a pretty good size IGF release. Taking it in that fashion gives me a couple of hours for the HGH to do its bit in burning fat, followed by insulin being able to recharge my muscles post workout, and the two together sparking the liver to release a good amount of growth factors all at the same time.

Maybe sometime (if I can find more than a few minutes to sit down at the computer at a time these days) I can elaborate on some of the major facets that you could consider. Bottom line is that if you are taking a respectable number of IU's of HGH, and are using insulin PWO in conjunction with your cycle, there is no question in my mind that you will achieve respectable IGF levels and will have success in your cycle ... whether taking your HGH/Insulin at the same time or in the fashion you are taking them presently.

Best of luck to you.

[Polska]

Bottom line is that if you are taking a respectable number of IU's of HGH, and are using insulin PWO in conjunction with your cycle, there is no question in my mind that you will achieve respectable IGF levels and will have success in your cycle ... whether taking your HGH/Insulin at the same time or in the fashion you are taking them presently.

Thanks for the reply Red, what in your opinion is a respectable number of IUs of HGH? Right now I am taking 3-4iu per day in the morning. The fat loss I've seen from it is great. Is taking 3-4iu before a workout enough? Or would I be better off taking my 15-20 weekly ius and splitting them up 5 - 6.5iu three times a week and pin it subq pre workout mon/wed/fri?

[RedBaron]

It depends somewhat on the HGH. In most of my guides I wrote years back, I spoke of using 5-6 IU's of HGH. With the US prescription type HGH brands, that seemed to work pretty well. What I noticed about most of the import-type HGH is that while it worked, I had to increase the doses significantly to get the same effect.

I would let your body be your guide, and if you can pull some blood panels that will help you dial in what you need. In general, I would say that if you are looking to HGH for size, then taking up your dose to the 6.5 IU level you suggested would certainly get you there in a more satisfactory manner. For fat loss and general health and maintenance, the level you are at now will work fine.

[NotSmall]

Hi RB - good to see you around!

What would you consider to be the upper limit of GH & slin that the liver could process at one time?

I am currently shooting 20ius blue tops + 12ius humalog PWO 3 times a week, what are your thoughts on this type of dosing regimen?

[thunderin]

Yes great to have you back around RB. What would be the ideal ratio of GH to slin 1:2, 1:1 or 1:0.5?

NotSmall, how do you stay awake with that much GH and slin together at one time?

Currently GH 5iu twice ed followed immediately by slin 10iu.

[NotSmall]

NotSmall, how do you stay awake with that much GH and slin together at one time?

lol - I don't!

Nah, I shoot it then have my first shake of 70g dex, 10g creatine, 10g BCAA, 10g glutamine peptides & digestive enzymes followed immediately by 3 scoops of whey (approx 69g protein).

Then 1hr post injection I have a big meal of grilled chicken and boiled rice and by this point you are quite right - I am completely knackered and quite often doze off for 1/2 hour, confident in the knowledge that I have ingested enough carbs to keep me out of a coma!

[RedBaron]

Hi RB - good to see you around!

What would you consider to be the upper limit of GH & slin that the liver could process at one time?

I am currently shooting 20ius blue tops + 12ius humalog PWO 3 times a week, what are your thoughts on this type of dosing regimen?

Hey there NotSmall, good to see you around too!!! I have been busier that a three-legged dog with fleas for the past couple of years it seems, but I have gotten to be involved in some pretty leading-edge research. Been nursing a couple of pretty good injuries as well (getting old is REALLY over-rated ... sucks in general). Anyway, it feels really good to finally have a little leisure time to catch up with some of my friends of old and actually sit at a computer for more than two minutes at a time without feeling guilty about the 100 things I should be doing.

As to the upper limit of GH and Slin that your liver will handle ... I don't think that within reason you are going to have a problem or need to worry with that. I have been involved in research that administered ~30 IU's of HGH at one setting, and in a lot of cases we give kids with growth disorders some pretty staggering doses. My last cycle before hanging up competitive ventures was 90 IU's per week.

Probably the more important question would be how to maximize the benefit of your investment. A couple of years back I posted an observation that a couple of years of blood panel results pointed out. I think it may have created a little bit of confusion as to what I was trying to say. A group of us kept a set weekly dosage of HGH over a really long period of time, but experimented with the dosing protocols. The results after analyzing our blood work over a long period seemed to suggest that by keeping the doses lower I was able to my IGF levels up higher with keeping the individual doses lower and frequency higher. That observation in no wise was meant to suggest that taking larger doses was necessarily a bad idea or that there weren't cases where that would be more profitable. I have seen several bodybuilders do well with a protocol similar to what you are using now, so I would say if it seems to be getting the job done for you, run with it for a while and see where it takes you.

Your insulin dose seems pretty spot on to me as well. At 12 IU's you are getting a good shuttle for sugars to the muscles, taking sufficient to offset the resistance from the HGH, and sufficient to trigger a good IGF release, and not so much that you will end up picking up a significant amount of fat along the way. The real question is whether that secretion from the liver offers significant growth in otherwise healthy, full-grown adults, or whether the growth benefits are almost solely from the growth factors secreted by the muscles and connective tissues themselves. Certainly in children and teens the liver's contribution helps in a significant way. There are some legitimate questions though with respect to adults. If that is the case, then the whole process of optimizing our dosage administration just to get the liver in gear is really of not so much importance. I have tons of notes and data over the last couple of years in some of the projects I have worked on that I will try to put together in some reasonable fashion in the future. We are definitely at a point where we only understand a fraction of the functions of HGH and IGF in the body.

There are more questions than answers about the "ideal" protocol. Frankly, there are down-sides to just about all of them. It just takes a bit of experimentation to dial it in for your individual body and metabolism.

Anyway, best of luck to you NotSmall. Hopefully now that I have reeled in the number of practices I am associated with I will have some free time to hear about how things work out for you.

[RedBaron]

Yes great to have you back around RB. What would be the ideal ratio of GH to slin 1:2, 1:1 or 1:0.5?

NotSmall, how do you stay awake with that much GH and slin together at one time?

Currently GH 5iu twice ed followed immediately by slin 10iu.

Hey there Thunderin! It's good to have the time to be back around!

I don't think that we could come up with a definitive ratio ... it is really more just using sufficient to offset the resistance to the work of insulin on our cells and to combat the increased level of sugars floating around in our blood-stream.

While it will end up being somewhat a personal venture, in general somewhere between 8-15 IU's of insulin should get the job done for the majority of people. That is plenty to get a good secretion of growth factors as well.

[goose]

WOW what an amazing post Red!!!!

Great to see you around buddy,I bet your son is almost as big as you.....

What are your feelings on CJC-195? Im really thinking of giving it a shot,the studies look very promising,but still at early stages.I think testing has been halted at the moment.Not many BB using it,most of the reviews I have read have been from them anti age people,LOL.They always seem to be the first guys to play with these peptides.

Would really appreciate if you have any info.I spoke to Pat Arnold on this,he said he loved the results and its a good peptide.Also he said HGH will be gone in decade,these long ester peptides are the future.

With this industry flourishing in terms of capitalism,I find we get taken advantage with,quite a few peptides are just rubbish.

[NotSmall]

Hey there NotSmall, good to see you around too!!! I have been busier that a three-legged dog with fleas for the past couple of years it seems, but I have gotten to be involved in some pretty leading-edge research. Been nursing a couple of pretty good injuries as well (getting old is REALLY over-rated ... sucks in general). Anyway, it feels really good to finally have a little leisure time to catch up with some of my friends of old and actually sit at a computer for more than two minutes at a time without feeling guilty about the 100 things I should be doing.

As to the upper limit of GH and Slin that your liver will handle ... I don't think that within reason you are going to have a problem or need to worry with that. I have been involved in research that administered ~30 IU's of HGH at one setting, and in a lot of cases we give kids with growth disorders some pretty staggering doses. My last cycle before hanging up competitive ventures was 90 IU's per week.

Probably the more important question would be how to maximize the benefit of your investment. A couple of years back I posted an observation that a couple of years of blood panel results pointed out. I think it may have created a little bit of confusion as to what I was trying to say. A group of us kept a set weekly dosage of HGH over a really long period of time, but experimented with the dosing protocols. The results after analyzing our blood work over a long period seemed to suggest that by keeping the doses lower I was able to my IGF levels up higher with keeping the individual doses lower and frequency higher. That observation in no wise was meant to suggest that taking larger doses was necessarily a bad idea or that there weren't cases where that would be more profitable. I have seen several bodybuilders do well with a protocol similar to what you are using now, so I would say if it seems to be getting the job done for you, run with it for a while and see where it takes you.

Your insulin dose seems pretty spot on to me as well. At 12 IU's you are getting a good shuttle for sugars to the muscles, taking sufficient to offset the resistance from the HGH, and sufficient to trigger a good IGF release, and not so much that you will end up picking up a significant amount of fat along the way. The real question is whether that secretion from the liver offers significant growth in otherwise healthy, full-grown adults, or whether the growth benefits are almost solely from the growth factors secreted by the muscles and connective tissues themselves. Certainly in children and teens the liver's contribution helps in a significant way. There are some legitimate questions though with respect to adults. If that is the case, then the whole process of optimizing our dosage administration just to get the liver in gear is really of not so much importance. I have tons of notes and data over the last couple of years in some of the projects I have worked on that I will try to put together in some reasonable fashion in the future. We are definitely at a point where we only understand a fraction of the functions of HGH and IGF in the body.

There are more questions than answers about the "ideal" protocol. Frankly, there are down-sides to just about all of them. It just takes a bit of experimentation to dial it in for your individual body and metabolism.

Anyway, best of luck to you NotSmall. Hopefully now that I have reeled in the number of practices I am associated with I will have some free time to hear about how things work out for you.

Thankyou for a typically in-depth and information-packed reply buddy, I appreciate it!

I have run a similar amount of ius per week in the past, only split over smaller, more frequent doses while my training partner opted for larger doses PWO (mainly because he keeps his supplies at my house where we train due to an unsympathetic gf... lol) and strangely he seemed to benefit from greater fat-loss than I did - kinda the opposite of what we expected, which may be more down to his body's response to GH & slin compared to mine rather than the differing schedules but IMO it certainly warranted some experimentation!

I'll keep you informed as to how it works out and I look forward to reading more of your posts now you are not so busy!

[thunderin]

Hey there Thunderin! It's good to have the time to be back around!

I don't think that we could come up with a definitive ratio ... it is really more just using sufficient to offset the resistance to the work of insulin on our cells and to combat the increased level of sugars floating around in our blood-stream.

While it will end up being somewhat a personal venture, in general somewhere between 8-15 IU's of insulin should get the job done for the majority of people. That is plenty to get a good secretion of growth factors as well.

Thanks for the reply and information. I prefer the lower end of that dosage because more makes me so sleepy.

[mr747]

Thanks for the reply and information. I prefer the lower end of that dosage because more makes me so sleepy.

how much slin do you use

[thunderin]

Currently GH 5iu twice ed followed immediately by slin 10iu.

how much slin do you use

It was in my post.

[mr747]

got it